Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

A few weeks back when the hail hit, my sister's Accord got damaged in a different storm at the same time. Their hail wasn't quite as large as the hail we got at work, but it was still large enough to dent her car up pretty good. The insurance company totalled it out, so she decided it was time to get a new Accord. I was over there last week and I found the window sticker with the EPA estimated mileages on it and noticed the city mileage on this four cylinder, super-aerodynamic economy car is 21 mpg. I pointed this out to her and then mentioned that the city mileage on that super-aerodynamic, economy Suburban sitting there in the driveway is ALSO 21 mpg.
Yeah, hers waxes mine on the highway mileage, but I thought it was pretty funny that a small econo-car like that gets the same city mileage as my orange truck.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Haha that's great! And the burb is probably 4 times the weight of the accord. :lol:

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

hey moses, ive been following your thread lately over on ck5 and didnt realize that you had it up over here as well.

im stuffing a 6bt/4500/205 in my 71 and came across a question (and im sure there will be more) about your choice of radiator and shroud. i saw that you use a tall radiator and matching big block shroud from a 73-87. what was your reason for going this route and not using an aluminum replacement and bb shroud for a 67-72? i am thinking about using one of the aluminum replacements from ebay but i am not sure if my fan would fit into a 67-72 bb shroud as it is from a 94 6bt. i believe that you said something about the non intercooled fans being smaller in diameter than the intercooled fans.

Also, do you have any advice when fitting the drivetrain for its final location? ive got the entire drivetrain sitting between the framerails right now. i am going to put some important items in place(coresupport, radiator, hydroboost, steering box) before making mounts and crossmembers to make sure i dont have any interferences.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

I had just bought that radiator and shroud for a truck that generously donated its organs to the Sub. When I put the big block in this, that was the radiator and shroud that I had available, so after I was told that I couldn't put that radiator and shroud in this truck, I decided that was the radiator it was getting.

Go back and re-read the fan mount part of the story. You are going to have to deal with your fan mount being the same as my original one. It offsets the fan to the driver side and also drops it down a bit. I think that is going to prevent you from using a GM shroud in your conversion. You may be able to swap it out (very expensive) or make your own shroud. It has been so long that I don't recall fan diameters, but I do believe your fan will be too large for the opening in a big block shroud. You might want to post up a question in the general truck forum about the ID of a BBC shroud then determine if yours will work. Keep in mind that you want a minimum of one inch aroud the fan for clearance. I had that spacer made to run the big lblock chevy fan, but I have since swapped the big block fan out for a small block fan and that is more than enough to keep this thing cool in summer with front and rear a/c cranked while idling in traffic.

As far as replacement aluminum radiators go, just make sure you get one with two, one inch rows of tubes. None of that three row or four row crap that is so abundant on ebay. The width of the tube is what makes an aluminum radiator transfer heat better than a copper/brass unit. Copper/brass is a better conductor of heat, but the tubes can not be made as wide as an aluminum tube, so that is why copper/brass radiators get three and four rows of (typically) half inch tubes. Aluminum can be made larger giving more tube to fin contact area, thus the tube can more efficiently transfer heat from itself to the fin and ultimately the air.

This is a tricky one as there is a definite "place" the motor needs to end up. I set mine as low as I possibly could while still maintaining *reasonable* clearance to the front diff. If I had it to do again, I think I would still do it the same way. Setting the motor higher has some benefits. For one, it would make your fan mount fit a little better. It would give you more clearance to the front diff. One thing it would do on the negative side is you would lose motor to hood clearance. It doesn't seem like it should matter, but once you start trying to fit stuff in, you will realize it. Around this time is when I figured out why almost everybody put a body lift on their trucks when they did their conversion and used a six inch suspension lift. This is an option for you as well. It would have made my life easier as well, but I have a buddy of mine that would not let me do it and in reality, I didn't want it myself. A one inch body lift would have made a big difference for me.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

The biggest problem I have had with placing them high in the frame is, bell housing to floor pan clearance. It can be a real PITA to remove trans mounting bolts, and try to route the down pipe through the opening in between the trans and frame rail. I try to place them where everything works the best. Sometimes that isn't an option like in my Corvette. :lol:

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

I was just looking at the radiator situation last night and what to do with it. I have a 94 donor truck and contemplated using the radiator and intercooler out of it. It would just not look as clean as a direct replacement as it is about 40+ inches long and thats at the bottom where it indents in for the intercooler ducts coming through the core support and I would also have to modify the core support bracing. I would like to use the intercooler from the 94 but it is going to be really close height wise. It is 16 inches tall and I have about 18 inches between the hood latch and the frame rails but this is with the 2 inch body lift threw in that was with the truck(I think I am set on running a 1 inch body lift, although I do not want to, to help with clearances like you mentioned) so I will end up with 17 inches between the hood latch and the frame rails. If it will work out i think my best bet is to run an aluminum replacement radiator and the 94 intercooler.

I threw the core support and radiator in the truck last night to get a feel where the drive train needs to end up, front to back anyway. It looks like where I have it currently front to back is about right as my fan clutch is about 2-2.5 inches from the radiator and the rear of the head is about 1-1.5 inches from the recess in the cab. I can't do much about side to side as I am using the 2nd gen Dodge mounts and it gives me about 3/16 of an inch between the mount and the boxed frame on each side. Now I think that I am just stuck on the top to bottom location. Last night was one of those nights where I just stood around and stared at everything and I felt stuck or maybe overwhelmed trying to get everything to work in such a tight space.

How did your bracket for the a/c work for you? I will go this route as well if I can figure out what to do with the water inlet as it seems to run into the frame and the belt routing. Since I am boxing the entire frame I might just take out a recess in the rail and box it all up so that it looks clean and smooth. Then comes that extra idler pulley. Any advice or work around for not having to custom make some bushings and brackets for it? I've already made many custom brackets and plan to make many more but I'm not sure this is one I want to tango with.

Did you use the mounting point on the side of the 205 to help support it? If its in your thread I must have missed it after reading it the past 10 times!!

Thanks for the help! You're saving me a lot of money and stress with your thread and your help.

I might try to make my own build thread if I can find the time to give all of the info of my work to this point.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

I think it would be worth alot of "noodle time" to figure out how to make the stock radiator and intercooler work. Benefits are: you already own it (you will be dumping plenty of money elsewhere in this thing before you are done), it has the correct size hose nipples on it, if you place it correctly you can use stock radiator hoses (do NOT underestimate how nice this little fact is--seriously), but what might be the biggest advantage is you can use the fan shroud that is offset for your fan mount and already the correct diameter for the fan you already have (another biggie in my opinion). Another board member, 72 tigger did it and I think it looks very clean (I really like how he solved the problem of the radiator cap being under the core support upper rail--very cool idea--[hint, steal this idea]). If you look closely you can see that he modified the hood latch for some extra clearance: (study this pic for a while, then let me know how you are going to do this with your parts)

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1289082262


I would set the motor further back. I have less than an inch of clearance to the firewall. Every little bit you can keep up front will help when you figure out how to put the cool pack from the Dodge in your truck.

Ha, ha, man!! You're just getting started. Come talk to me when you get to the end and you only have big stuff left and only small places to put it!! My windshield washer reservoir has to be filled with a transmission funnel because I ran out of space before I ran out of things to install. Seriously, if I had a dime for every minute I stared at mine without doing anything other than thinking, I would have made money on the project long before it was done. You at least have a guide to direct you.

It worked out well for me, but I recommend that you do not use it. When you adapt the cool pack from the Dodge to your truck (notice I said "when", not "if") you will use the hoses from the Dodge. The water inlet I used will create more headaches for you than it is worth. The biggest one is going to have to do with alternator mounting and belt routing. What you have works, keep it simple. Don't reinvent something that can be made to work.

Ding, ding, ding!!! This is what is going to make your life much easier than mine was at this point in the project.

My advice is keep what you have and make it work in its new home. There are several benefits to keeping what you have. The BIGGEST and most important is you can go into any parts house and telll them you have a '94 Dodge and you need an alternator or an a/c compressor or a belt tensioner. Think I can do that?? My alternator is Freightliner, my a/c compressor is Peterbilt, my tensioner is Kenworth. There is some crossover from brand to brand, but do you think I am going to be able to find this stuff in a parts store?? I will have to carry spares (which I do of some of the parts) or find a heavy truck parts house to get the goods. Not an ideal situation, but it is made better slightly because these parts are built to last compared to the light truck stuff, but still.

No, you didn't miss it. I did not use it.

I'm glad, seriously. I know what you are going through and I'll admit there were many times I wished that I could ask someone how to do this or that or at least see a pic of how someone else did it. This is no small project.

Do it now. You will thank me when you are done. I think this thread reset me at least a half-dozen times. When you get further in and you have to choose what to work on today and you are trying to pick from, well, everything, sometimes someones post or question is all it takes to re-center yourself in the project and press on. Sometimes just going back through and looking at what you have done so far is helpful in maintaining forward progress.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

mmmhttp://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1289082262

My original thoughts were to use the radiator and intercooler from the Dodge to make things simple and because I already have it from the donor truck. My fan shroud is cracked but the cost of it over a new aluminum radiator and intercooler would be pocket change. I am not sure that I will need to use his idea for the radiator cap because i believe that the radiator is thin enough to fit between the main structure of the core support and it is possibly too tall to fit between the top rail and the bottom tray of the core support. Before bouncing these ideas off of you I thought I had decided to order a new aluminum radiator that would fit the 71 core support.

I see that his build was a body swap but that thing is clean!!!

My cab is not completely fastened to the frame right now so I will do that and set the engine back another inch or so for room for the fan and cool pack.

Well it wasnt the first time and it sure wont be the last! This drivetrain location is the biggest frustration yet, mainly due to the a/c compressor, but then again, none of this is easy especially with so many variables to conisder.

I would love to use the factory Dodge compressor and alternator mounting points but I am very worried about my frame clearance. The mounting bracket for the compressor is about an inch from the edge of the frame without the compressor on it. This means that since I am boxing the frame, I will have to take out a decent offset "C" recess from the frame for the compressor clearance. The current outside of the framerail parallel with the compressor will need to become the inside of the new offset boxed framerail and possibly even a bit more to allow removal of the compressor bolts. Is this how you had envisioned this recess or did you think that it would be less? What do you think about this? I believe that I have the fab skills and I know I have the tools, but I am just worried that there may be a better option for this problem. Like you said it would be amazing to be able to use the factory Dodge serpentine routing and components, but I have never seen anyone create this much of an offset in a short section of frame maybe other than "C" notches for axles.

Easier?? Ha Its already too easy!! haha

And this is probably the biggest advantage to keeping the factory Dodge setup and if I can convince myself that recessing the frame is the best thing to do then I will be able to keep that set up which would be very nice!!

Is there a certain reason you didnt use it? Do you have the cast or aluminum housing on your 4500?

Its nice reading through your thread and knowing talking with someone who understands exactly the obstacles down to the details of what I am going through with a build this in depth.

I will try to create a build thread here in the next few days and throw in bits at a time to get it up to date as I have been pretty good and documenting pictures as I go along. It definately does help having input from others when trying to decide what to do next and even sometimes helping to decide how to do it.

Im sorry for taking up all of this room on your thread! I'll try to make my own asap.

Thanks for all of your help once again!!

Do you have any updates for your build btw?

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

If the supports you are referring to are the ones on either side of the radiator opening in the core supports, you can hack those at will. This core support is so over-built that modifying those won't hurt. I modified mine quite extensively and the core support is still rediculously stout. If you are uneasy about doing this, hack them out and add some support back in when you are done fitting everything in (I don't think you will once you get them out and realize that you still can't flex this thing).

I'd like to see some more pics, but from what he has posted it does appear to be very clean. I have seen some pretty horrid attempts at body swaps that gave them bad reps, but that one sure looks nice.

Yeah, tell me about it. So many variables that have to be correct so that down the road you don't end up having to tear stuff apart to redo this or that because you learned that you didn't place it right the first time.


I think I am following you here, but a pic or two would sure help on this. Go ahead and post a couple up here if you have them so I can be sure of what you are stating. If I do understand what you are up against correctly, then I am thinking you *may* have to swap some parts, but post a pic with your situation and we'll see.

Yes, I have a reason. I do not look at that part as a support, I view it as a lever working toward an end goal of twisting the rear trans housing apart. How about this; the motor mounts are far apart (side to side), but actually they are fairly close together. The transmission mount (or pivot in this case) is dead-center. The motor mounts and the trans mount work in unison, now throw another anchor point on the component that is the furthest away from the motor mounts about five to six inches OUTBOARD(!!) of the motor mounts in the front. Now twist the frame off-road.

My rear trans housing is aluminum as I used a GM trans and converted the front to the HD input. The only iron housing that I have seen in the aftermarket is for the Dodge units. I realize the rear housings were not designed for a 205, but I think just supporting the weight of the 205 is better than using the 205 as a giant breaker bar on the housing. I have thought about making a rod from the holes to a bellhousing bolt, but that is about as far as I have gotten.

Hopefully I can give you some useful information along the way.

It really does. Start planning one out before that becomes a daunting task too.

Bah, obviously I'm not using it too much right now, so have at it.

Send me a link when you do.


Anytime.

Nope. I have just been driving it. I did put the highway tires back on it. I still had the muds on it from our last camping excursion. One thing that I did not realize is how much the rear tires spin/lose traction, whether it be turning or under power. The highway tires really don't make much noise, but when the muds spin it sounds like a 400lb great dane howling back there.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/o.../DSCN0849a.jpg

I noticed this and figured i would post up real quick and comment on the rest tomorrow.

Hopefully you can put my kindergarten drawing into perspective here.

This is what I was trying to explain by saying offsetting this section of the frame by creating a "C" in the boxed frame for the compressor to lay in. Like I said, I am not sure this is the best option. I know I can do it and make it stronger than the original frame but I am afraid there is a better option out there.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Have you looked into getting the other style compressor mount that raises the compressor up? http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showth...34-a-c-bracket

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Yeah I have looked into going with the f800 compressor/alternator bracket but it would just be so nice to be able to use the original dodge serpentine and parts setup.

I have the tools and know-how to modify the frame, I just want to get some input on it before I actually do it.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Hey mosesburb,

Just lettin you know that I started my build thread in the 4x4 section.

Berthas Build

I'll get it caught up as much as I can at a time til its finally caught up to now. Feel free to comment on anything you feel necessary.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Yeah, I'm not digging that idea too much. Do you absolutely have to cut that out or could you possibly just notch the upper or lower part of the rail?? I had my motor set so low that I would have had to notch the lower rail. That was the final nail convincing me to cash some paychecks at Cummins for the associated parts to convert it. If you can get away with notching the rail, I say go for it as I have seen a few of these conversions with notched rail that worked well. You can add beef back in if necessary once you have your clearance. But, as far as the offset notch that you illustrated, I don't like that mainly because, being four wheel drive, you have a spring mount forward of the area you need to cut out/move. If it was a 2wd, I'd say go for it, but I'm not feeling the warm fuzzies on the 4x.

Check out the possibilities of a rail notch (possibly move the motor up or down a bit--you can still do this at this point...) and let me know what you think.

What's up with the cut up forward crossmember??

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Now you can see why I was so hesitant to recess/offset the frame so much. I agree, if it was 2wd I would be alright because there is no weight on the end/front of the frame to create leverage(like the leaf mounts will) except the bumper and core support.

Here is a picture of the clearance that I currently have between the frame rail and the bracket itself. If you look further you can see the partial box that I have made for the frame to mock up the motor mounts and crossmember and how close the stock 94 motor side mounts are to the new boxed portion of the frame.
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/o...s/DSCN0858.jpg

The crossmember was hacked on by the PO apparently. I am going to run a piece of 2x4 3/16 wall tube in its place but I didnt want to remove the original until I got my drive line in place so that I would have as little movement in the frame as possible.

Since it doesnt appear that notching the frame is an option any more, I believe my last resource is to start shelling out the cash for the bracket, compressor, alternator, water inlet, tensioner, belt, and all of the headaches that go along with running the f800 setup.....

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

OK, you guys need to check this out. Not only is it a bad a** build, but this guy modified the frame to retain the dodge A/C compressor. He used to be a member here but got pissed off by a few members and deleted all his stuff and has disappeared. I won't clutter your thread mosesburb, but I want to atleast post these 2 pics for future use in case the other thread gets deleted or something crazy.

http://heartlanddiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1131

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Wow dieselwrencher, that was exactly my vision when I was thinking of notching my fully boxed frame. It would be so nice to be able to do that to retain the original Dodge a/c and serpentine setup. How do you think it will hold up strength wise on a 4x4 yourself?

Thanks for the pictures, that put my words into pictures perfectly.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Honestly I think it would hold up ok, but I might do the rear portion a little bit different to make sure it is strong enough.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

How do you mean? Can you explain how you would do it?

My thought was to basically make the boxed frame jog out and then back in. Then add some material bent to the shape of the joints of the jog as to not rely completely on the welds of the joints.
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Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

If I were to do this I think I would over lap the stock frame a little farther in the rear to ensure proper strength, but that's just me. I would remove the factory bump stop, and proceed farther back that way I know that frame is strong enough for my worrying mind. :lol:

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

I know its going to be a lot of work but I wonder why he said that he would never do the frame notch again??

And yeah, that sounds similar to what I was saying by taking material that tied into the existing frame rail so that you are not relying only on the butt welds to support the weight of the truck, not to mention any abuse it will see.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Because it was a lot of work and a PITA is what he told me. Besides, you can build different bracketry and use the dodge compressor some place else. Yes it is some work, but it can be done.

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

mosesburb,
I read this entire thread the other night, and I just went over it again. I am loving the Cummins swap, and your attention to detail ! This build is awesome :metal:

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Great to meet you this weekend man and thanks for the tour of your truck. That thing is truley amazing.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...0/IMG_0026.jpg

Re: The Story Of A Cummins Suburban (Lots Of Pics)
 

Gary Puls up at Wyotech notched the frame of his chevy for his 8.1L swap... He also boxed the whole frame