Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

One Awesome project :metal:

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

A typical 292 gets 11 mpg loaded or not, wether its in a 1/2 ton pickup, or a single axle c60 dump truck.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

For under a grand it is easy to get a 4BT to 200 HP and well over 400 ft. lbs of torque. That is the advantage to the diesel.

I have a 4BT in my '90 F350 4X4. This winter when I have time I will hopefully get it over 300 HP and 700 ft. lbs of torque. Try that with a 292.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Where on the planet earth do you buy a nice 4BT + mods for <$1,000??? I'm calling BS on that one.

My understanding from reading is that a <200HP 4BT in a working/towing truck (run hard) is generally considered to have compromised longevity.

As far as cheap power, do you really think a 4BT is going to make more HP per $ than a junkyard 5.3/6.0 LSx???

Again; I'm not knocking the diesel stuff, but it's not what some people make it out to be IMO.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Not the whole engine. I have bought a little under $700 worth of performance parts and have 196 HP to the wheels. Yes the engines are spendy.

I didn't know that we were talking about LSx engines. Everything has been comparing 261's and 292's to 4BT's.

As far as longevity, I have seen commonrails (305 and 325 hp) over 500,000 miles. I would think that 200 HP on 4 cylinders would be similar to 300 HP on 6 cylinders.

Even if it only runs 300,000 miles, it will be a far cry better than the 7.3 that I took out - and still better than a stock 292.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

One other point is that the 4bt is a very simple engine to work on compared to the modern gas engines. I really enjoy mine, it's dependable, good on fuel, very powerful, and a conversation piece.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

I was just saying that because you said "This winter when I have time I will hopefully get it over 300 HP and 700 ft. lbs of torque. Try that with a 292.", and I was noting that both are really probably the wrong choice if you're going for cheap power.

My understanding is that when running one really hard consistently (heavy towing/boat application) that they don't really like to make a lot of power, which is understandable.

I would be surprised if you couldn't make a 292 go 300,000, though. I think I had two people recently tell me that they had cars with 283's that they had for over 300,000, and a local 305 V8 went almost 500,000 before the timing chain fell off (IIRC). I'm pretty sure one of my own 250 powered trucks has way more than 300,000 on it, too.

Not to say the diesel wouldn't be nicer at 300K (I'm sure it probably would be), but you also have to factor in that the rebuilds cost more, plus the other stuff like injectors, injector pumps, etc.

I still think it's neat, but I just don't think it's quite what many seem to make it out to be.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Yeah, I think they are neat (like I said before); if I find a deal on a 4-53 Detroit I'll stick one of those in something. (Nothing says conversation piece like a two-stroke diesel! Unless you are too deaf to converse as a result of it... :lol:)

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

I would agree with all of this.

The reason most people entertain the idea of a diesel swap is better fuel economy. Unfortunately diesel is like $.50 more a gallon. So when you factor that in plus the fact that you'll spend significantly more building them and fixing them. It almost ends up being a wash.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

I like this mentality, it helps keeps the cost of diesel and used parts down.:metal:
I have three Cummins 4bt conversions and a Dodge Cummins truck. I don't find them more expensive. And $.50 more a gallon for $4.00 fuel is only about a 14% increase for which I get 100% better fuel mileage.
Just my 14+ year real life experience not speculation.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

I will agree that if you are doing an engine swap for mileage only, it will take a LONG time to pay for itself.

That's why I have a Honda that gets 60 to 80 MPG.

I'm still not convinced that you can get 700 ft lbs of torque out of an LSx and still have it be driver friendly and be able to tow heavy.

The reason i went with a 4BT is that the 7.3 that I had was shot and I wanted more power and I like Cumminses and lots of headaches associated with swaps. I probably should have went with a 6BT but I was told by many people that "you couldn't get any power out of a four cylinder" - so I did.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Well, to start off with, the 700ftlb number is kind of meaningless; it's the same deal as peak HP numbers. I can put more than 700ftlbs on that input shaft if you hand me a long wrench, but that doesn't mean I'm suitable as a truck engine. :lol:

HP is what actually does the work, and that is why when talking about the power output of the "real" diesel engines (as in big OTR/equipment stuff) HP is what is always used. Torque is only a measurement of force, which does nothing without speed; speed x force = HP.

Say you have 300HP with your diesel, and I have 400HP with a BBC; if I run @ the same RPM you are running at (and am making less torque there), I am as a result making less HP. However, if I kick down a gear and wind up it, I'll pass you like you're chained to a pole. Why? You have more peak torque, but don't have the extra speed to make more actual power. This is where everyone seems to get confused; HP at the speed you intend to operate the engine at is what actually pulls the truck down the road.

From everything I've read, a 4BT pumped up like that will kill itself in short order if you actually load it up and start up the side of a mountain WOT.

For example, take the 893CID 3406E Caterpillar; the versions that made 435HP or more had 2-piece pistons with steel domes to resist melting them (or whatever) under sustained heavy load. A 4BT is only 239CID, or roughly 1/4 of the size; hard for me to believe that adding 654CID only adds 135HP... :lol:

As far as hot-rod power like that, a V6 Camaro my father stuck a turbo setup on at the place he works at made 421HP @ the wheels (or about 500HP @ the crank); this engine had nothing done to it besides the turbo, and as a result ran like stock until you opened it up.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

BTW, I'll again add that I'm not saying the diesel thing sucks; I just think that it's a little over-glorified today.

The 292 in stock form is rated @ 153 net HP @ 3,600RPM; no problem holding it wide-open there until the sun burns out. It's a truck engine, and that's what GM designed it to do.

The 4BT normally makes something like 105HP @ 2,300RPM from what I'm reading; it's also a truck/tractor engine, and can also do that until the sun burns out.

292 wins hands-down here IMO, as it makes pretty much 50HP more than the 4BT does--a 50% increase in power!

A jacked-up 4BT will make more power than the 292, but it also might melt it's pistons out pulling a long hill running wide-open. Likewise, you could also put a turbo on the 292 (or otherwise hot-rod it) and push it until you start finding the weak links. Just my opinion, but those are my thoughts on the matter as of right now.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Its more important to look at the torque vs. RPM curves here guys.

A 292 (even being a I-6'er) will still have to get some spin on it to do anything grunt worthy. (Actually turns out to be a 1100 RPM peak difference)

The 4BT you'll idle right out on anything.

292
115 hp at 3,400 rpm and 215 lb. ft. at 1,600 rpm

4BT
105 hp @ 2,300 rpm and 265 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm

in some delivery applications.... 292's were removed and replaced with 4BT's.... (IE the stepvan most 4BT's are found in)

I have a hard time believing that even with the right gearing a 292 could push this (see below) down the road at 60 MPH. (This is what I found my 4BT in on my 1947 Ford diesel 1.5 ton project... and yes I drove it home.... the 4BT in my van replaced an existing 6.2L diesel and was mated to a TH 400)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n..._3624856_n.jpg

If you've never owned/driven a diesel pickup.... your wasting your time trying to really describe... there two way different animals.

Take the big brother here guys... the 6BT 12 Valve... a 190HP, 440 ft-lb ft of torque engine.

Take a 6.0L LQ9 LS engine.... same torque, twice the HP.... it should be better right?

The 12V will pull the house down over the 6.0. At a slower speed yes... but at 30,000 lbs.... 12V 6BT diesel > 6.0L LS gasser




Differentiate what they really are guys...... 4BT: A puller meant for work.. and in stock form.... a MPG sipper if you have extremely favorable highway gearing. 292: An occasional puller capable of running out empty to highway speed without any issue or concern for gearing in most platforms.

The 4BT 'rarity' now leads to its increase demand in price. For the same amount of money... I went LS.... will get similar mileage, blow the doors off of the 4BT in a race, and be able to pull from a stop about the same. (yes... about the same... even though I have x2 the HP and torque.)

Now my 5.3L LS vs. a 292..... pulls harder from a stop, faster, better mpg etc.

If the 292 is in there and free... and your not looking for a project.. leave it.

If your pulling off idle more then cruising..... 4BT

If your looking for win/win/win in regards to $$$/mpg/tow ability - today - its the LS.

Tomorrow.... is a new day... a new fad.... different generations of motors becoming available in the junkyard and new technology every day... who knows.

one thing I know for sure... beer is good

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Read my post again (did you read it to begin with?).

The numbers you quote for the 292 are from the later smog era; '64-'66 made 255ftlbs of net torque and had the added power higher up that the 4BT just doesn't. Yes, the 292 makes its peak power a little higher up; that's where GM intended you to run it.

The 292 is/was a schoolbus/dump truck engine--you know that, right?

TURBO diesel. Want to race my 454 spark-knocker with your 6.2? :lol:

Again, no. Wind the 6.0 up to the moon where it makes its power, and it'll out-pull the diesel. You think the diesel is more powerful because WHERE YOU ARE RUNNING IT AT IT MAKES MORE HP. And what do you mean "At a slower speed yes..."? More power=faster on the planet I'm from.

The 292 was never intended as that; it is a HD truck engine, designed for HD truck use. The (stock) 4BT is also a truck engine, but just a lamer one that is missing the entire top end of its powerband. :lol:

Just think of it this way; the 292 can spin 1,300RPM faster than a 4BT, right? So, 3,600/2,300=1.56. I'm just going to use that extra gear on this hill, and you can use that badazz 4BT grunt in high gear. ;)

Now my 292 makes 400ftlbs @ less than 1,600RPM, and makes another 48HP @ 2,300RPM. 4BT isn't so bad anymore, is it? I can hold 3,600RPM as long as you can hold 2,300RPM. :)

Again, HP where you run it is what makes the truck go. :chevy:

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

*Sigh*

Yes submarine.. the 292 was the uber bestest engine ever.

454 (7.43L) sparker vs. a 6.2L naturally aspirated diesel? not really apples to apples.....


There was a reason in 2004 that the 6.6L Duramax was tow rated for an additional 5,000 lbs over the 8.1L Vortec [They are backed by the EXACT same allison A1000 transmission]

(even though the 8.1 vortec made more HP and torque than the 6.6)


454 (7.4L) sparkers are just slobber-knockers.... most 454's get spanked in a race by 5.3 small blocks these days {Since thats you were talking about}

The 292 was a school bus/dump truck engine in the 70's like the 454.

The 4BT is comparable with a chevy 350 in terms of performance moving a truck.

4BT/TH400 will beat a 292/TH350 in a race in a same weighted truck.

Sorry you don't understand torque curves.. but please stop trolling on the forum... (in this and other posts we've noticed recently on your posts).

6.0L gasser will not outpull a 12V cummins.... lol troll 6.0L' gassers at a truck pull? not exactly:sumo:

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

I like how this turned into a desktop dyno argument.

If your arguing dyno numbers with a diesel, just stop....your missing the whole point of it.

There is a reason GM SOLD the entire rights to its big block engines and their castings/stampings; they have become relegated to ONLY commercial applications and ONLY in places where diesels aren't practical/possible.

The company that owns them has made it into an 8.8L w/ a turbo to get the same torque as the diesels for use in busses and small construction.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Oh, come on... :rolleyes:
*Sigh*
I never said or inferred that in any way.
My point is that the 6.2 diesel was about as gutless as anything GM ever decided to put in a truck, and was a diesel. A 350 would also run circles around it, FWIW.
Because the Duramax is designed/intended for heavier continuous usage.
Never said they would run with the late model stuff.
Yes.
Then why were they used in applications that previously used sixes? What trucks came with 4BT's from the factory?
As I said before, power=speed. The engine with 50% more power wins in a drag race (unless you are too dumb to figure out how to make it run).
I'm sorry you don't, and I'm also sorry you know absolutely everything and can't possibly learn anything new. Glad you are keeping tabs on me, but how exactly am I "trolling"? Like this?
I'm not seeing it. In fact, you are the one that seemingly does nothing but troll posts for the chance to post up your totally-never-been-done-before 5.3 swap.
You're right, all those guys are running totally stock trucks they use to hotshot with in their spare time, not blowing heads off running 100+PSI. :lol:
Yeah, because with a diesel the righteous hand of God himself pushes you up that hill. No way you can measure that. :lol:

Example:
Magically enough, that truck also makes a ton of HP that is measurable on a dyno. Weird.

BTW, look at what I have; a Cummins diesel head being prepped for a hotrod truck. Yeah, I've never seen any crap like that before. :lol:

You guys really showed me. :rolleyes:

Can we act like adults again, please?

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

:fry:

Uhhhhh? Hypocritical much?

Nice 12V head thats been sitting in your backyard for 7 years.

No helping... BR3W City and I can't fix this

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

To be honest I don't understand this comment..

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

You called me out and said I was "trolling", and I just noted that you are actually the one who posts that to countless (unrelated) threads here, including more than one of mine. More of a "you actually do the very thing you are accusing me of doing--just stop it" kind of thing.

BTW, the 24V head (4x6=12?:lol:) is actually for the guy in the video, who does a lot of hotrod Cummins stuff; it's having the intake cut off and machined for an aftermarket setup. I forgot to tell him all he needed was a K&N air filter and some cool hotrod flames to get the same power...after all, some guys on the internet said so! :lol:

Like I said, you guys really told me. :rolleyes:

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

BTW, I'd like to note that I pretty much just posted basic math and actual manufacturers specs; you posted a personal attack and tried to claim that a diesel engine magically has some kind of immeasurable power (so I was a "troll"). :rolleyes:

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

I don't understand why people create the illusion that diesels are some elusive mystical creature. 66 submarine posted valid and relevant information. Numbers don't discriminate.

Either way, this thread has completely taken a right hand turn from the OP's question haha.

Ahh the interwebz...

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Wow, you must have read all of the same stuff that I read. I'm just too tenacious about some of the hair-brained ideas that I have to listen to reason. I plan to have a 300 HP 4BT that I can tow with. Do I think I can? - yes. If it lasts over 100,000 miles I will be ecstatic.

:burnout:

In case anybody cares, I should have it all juiced up by the end of the month. I had to pull the motor because of a "little" break down after running it at 200 HP for about 2,500 miles.

Re: 4bt cummins swap
 

Reason seems to suggest that just jacking up a 4BT to 300HP and beating on it will greatly shorten its lifespan; the marine 250HP versions that supposedly have lots of reliability problems also hint to this.

So you ran @ 200HP for 2,500 miles and actually messed something up, but you plan to beat on it @ 300HP and have it last?

Anyway, do you mean you want a 300HP engine you can tow a 500lb 5'x8' utility trailer with once a year, or a 300HP engine you can actually hook something heavy up to and hold it wide-open climbing a steep hill with regularity? Not really the same thing.

BTW, you mention:
Well, an old guy from Texas on another board used to run a '59 (IIRC) GMC tandem axle road tractor with an Oldsmobile 371 V8; he said he pretty much ran wide open all day and kept it @ 3,800-4,200RPM. He also said he went 100,000 miles between rebuilds running like that, and it was still a good running engine when he later wrecked the truck.

One last time; I'M NOT HATING ON DIESEL ENGINES!!! All I said is that I think the modern lore embellishes on reality to some degree. I actually do like them, but they are not some kind of magical mechanical unicorns that are beyond human comprehension. Is that not OK? Really?

If you want to have a 300HP 4BT just to say you do/can, great! Nothing wrong with that, and I never said there was.