Re: Wife's 48
 

looking good...but...in your 3rd pic in post 40 of the cab corner. .it looks like theres a few holes left in your welded seam...be sure to weld those up solid...

Re: Wife's 48
 

what is your process for metal prep with your project. are you sand blasting the entire project or just the repair areas? if blasting everything are you covering the whole project in weld through primer or just the welded areas prior to welding?

Re: Wife's 48
 

That looks good, everyone starts somewhere.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Mongo, I was looking at that picture after I posted it. I was wondering if all metal would fill and cover. Apparently not, so I'll go back and touch it up with the MIG once I get to the welding supply and get some gas.

Raven, the project was media blasted and primed before I bought it, but it sat for years since the primer was done before I got it. So for my repairs, I'm using a wire wheel to clean off the primer and any rust from the spot where I need to weld prior to welding. Then I am spraying the areas that will be covered with new metal with the weld through primer. Then I'm covering those areas up with new patches and welding them in place. Then I'm spraying some more primer on until I can get the whole cab blasted and primed properly.

Lower50's, thank you. I know others are laughing at my work, but starting a project like this with no prior body repair experience, I do feel like I am learning and improving. I have a ways to go, but looking at the welds, they are not proud, so any filler will smooth over them, and they are getting better. Oh, and I've removed rusted out panels.

Re: Wife's 48
 

ok, got it.
one hint that has worked for me for welding to the edge of the panel is to start on the edge and work inwards, small welds, spaced apart. that way it doesn't overheat as easily and not complete the weld to the edge of the part. if you weld from the inside towards the outside then the metal is already hot and the edge falls off so that part becomes a void. I start by tack welding the pieces together and moving around with the tacks until I have the part well secured and fitting well. tacks can be 3/4" apart when done this job, then weld a bead 1/4-3/4" long at a time between the tacks, depending on how the metal reacts, then allow to cool.hammer on dolly each weld when still smokin hot. move to another cold part so things don't warp. sometimes, for thin stuff, I weld 1/16-1/8" long bursts but leave the wire in the puddle, wait a couple of secs and pull the trigger again for a short burst, wait a couple secs, and on and on. do a 1/2-3/4" piece then pull away, hammer on dolly the weld and cool the part. go somewhere else and do the same thing.
when done a flap disc on a mini grinder works well to flatten the beads out. better than a grinding disc. 40 or 60 grit works well for starters but be careful not to use a really floppy one or the disc flexes and starts to take away the metal next to the weld as well. don't flap disc too much without upping the grit of the flap disc, too many big scratches otherwise.
having a cut out of the contour it is supposed to be is also helpfull because you can see right away if the metal is distorting from the weld or if you are getting a valley where the weld is. better to fix that before continuing because it is easier than doing it after. when all done if you have some gigh spots they can be shrunk down with your clothes iron, set on super hot, laid flat against the high spots. when you take the iron off run a cold wet sponge over the area and watch the high spots shrink. the area only needs to get hot enough to make the water steam a bit. cool the entire panel before doing too much at a time. less bondo required this way. a shrinking disc is another option but more spendy. there are videos on youtube that show how they work.
hope that was usefull info for somebody. it's just what works for me.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Good advice, thanks. I will try that next chance I get to work on the sheet metal. Thanks.

Re: Wife's 48
 

I don't think anyone on here is laughing. They all are a bunch of great ppl. I don't care who you are everyone starts somewhere. If at the end of the day you can stand back and be proud of what you did, that's all that matters. Just start by tacking the panel on and then start making your tacks longer jumping from tack to tack is what I do.

Re: Wife's 48
 

yeah, if anybody is laughing it is because they were once in the same boat as you are now, big job with minimal experience.
keep plugging away and soon you will look back and see how far you've come.pick a job and do the best you can. post pics and guys will give their 2 cents on how you can proceed, different tactics, things to watch out for etc. end of the day just try to think about what you do and how it will affect the longevity of the repair. if you have a big part that needs to be patched you can also use panel adhesive, no heat there to warp panels.
the reason I was quizzing you on weld through primer is because I have found it works great between parts getting welded or for a quick coating to preserve fresh bare steel where you will sand it off before continuing later. but not so much on the parts that will eventually get epoxied over the weld through and then painted later. I find it comes off easy when rubbed against etc and especially if it is a thick coat. it is usually zinc or copper based so it could also be an issue with paint sticking to it. basically like cold galvanizing. wouldn't want to see all that work done and then you blow paint off at the first car wash. if in doubt check at the local autobody paint supplier or online.
another quick pointer would be to use your mig wire cutters all the time to cut the end off the mig wire after each use. this gives you a nice chisel tip to scratch through the primer and also starts the weld process clean with less spatter and contaminants. especially if welding through a hole, like spot welding with the mig.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Guys, thanks for the advice. I was not using the weld through for anything but cover for the interim until I can get it blasted and primed properly, and the MIG advice is great.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Yes, great advice. No one is laughing. It takes experience to gain experience.

I'm a very competent sheetmetal whacker/welder. Last month I have been helping my dad on a rusted door. We fought contamination and blowouts. I had it all TIG welded, and planished out, looking good. Shined a flashlight through the back and found LOTS of places I missed the line, or didn't penetrate enough and ground off the bead... :banghead:

When it comes to sheet metal, there are 4 simple rules. You can cut it, weld it, shrink it, or stretch it. That's it.

I cringe when I hear the word: WARP. There is no such thing. In the process of cutting, and welding, you upset the metal. It is going to happen. When you are done, you need to stretch and/or shrink places to get it back into shape. Cutting stretches, and all welds shrink! Learning to deal with this = experience.

Flame suit on...

Re: Wife's 48
 

Big, you are right!

I just need a lot more experience. Luckily (or unluckily) I have two of these trucks to work on, so I'm going to get "some" experience. I don't think I've built up enough heat in the corner to cause any deformity, although I have one more rear corner to do, so knock on wood. Then I start on doors, fenders, bed sides, etc. That is when I'm worried about fit and deformity. So I'm stressing a little right now.

I keep putting off anything that scares me until I can't stand it and then I do it. Like the dash. Getting the old one out of the cab without damaging the cab was very stressful. It's now out without damaging the cab, now welding the "better" one back in will be a new test of what I've learned.

It's a good thing I'm enjoying the learning, because it's coming at me like a freight train.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Excellent, keep at it!

If you already know this, sorry, maybe someone else will find it useful. Quit looking at it from the point of view "building up heat". Go back to my 4 simple rules. Heat = shrink, hammer on dolly = stretch, hammer off dolly = shrink. Pick your method. If you break it down to these simple rules, it is easier to manage sheet metal.

Heat Affected Zone (HAZ), the end result (when cooled) is shrinkage. It is going to happen, and you're gonna have to fix it. Those are areas that need to be stretched when you're done welding. If you're gonna weld, heat happens. Sometimes you can plan to cut/weld to place the HAZ near a structural feature. Guess what? It still shrinks. The adjacent structural piece holds it in place so you can't see the shrinkage, and you may not have to fix it. That's why making a weld seam across the center of a door or fender turns into ocean waves. There is no structure to hold it in place.

When I "build up heat", I get a blowout. Otherwise, weld on... The other problem to "building up heat" is when you are welding and the surrounding metal is hot, it is expanded. If you weld in that "built up heat" condition, you can inadvertently lock in the "expanded" area causing lots of heart ache.

That is the reason for skipping around to keep from "building up heat". So you are welding on metal that is NOT currently heated and expanded. draven's technique works great, and this is the "why".

If you learn to torch or TIG weld, you can actually see the expansion of the metal as you weld.

Anyway, ponder on this and move on.

Finish welding up those seams. "All Metal" is not the be-all end-all to filling. Remember science class? Two dissimilar metals makes a battery. Steel and "all metal" can create galvanic corrosion, causing future failure. Your best solution is keep chasing pinholes with the welder until they are all gone. Lightly blast welded areas, and paint with epoxy primer. Then use a high quality filler over epoxy. The repair will be waterproof.

Re: Wife's 48
 

BIG, that was a very thought out response. Thank you!

It makes sense when you put it that way. I've read MPC's posts on Garage Journal on how to weld sheet metal, but doing is different than reading. Now I'm trying to do it and this really helps.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Robert is the master! Keep following his stuff. I'm nowhere near as good as that guy! I can screw up metal (that should be the 5th rule) just like anyone else. Persistence 'til I get it right.

Re: Wife's 48
 

waaaay better explanation. its what mt brain was sayin. somehow it got mixed up before the keyboard got it.
like said, best to epoxy before the bondo. bondo is porous so it can hold moisture and cause corrosion or simply fall off when it de-bonds itself. epoxy seals the surface after metal working, then bondo, then epoxy, then high build primer. thats how I do it anyway. never used all metal except in the corners of the roof to A pillar where the old solder filler was used. got rid of the solder, sanded as much off as I could after melting it away, then all metal because I wasn't positive the regular filler would be there in 10 yrs if any lead was left under it.

Re: Wife's 48
 

One thing I left out about "building up heat". The goal is to keep the HAZ as small as possible. Building up heat = larger HAZ. Smaller HAZ = less area to planish.

And rule #5. It's only metal. If you screw it up, revert back to rules 1-4.

Re: Wife's 48
 

The guys on the paint forum I follow recommended Evercoat Vette Panel adhesive:
http://www.evercoat.com/product-deta...art/100870/us/

I haven't tried it. It's a polyester filler. They say it is stronger, and more crack resistant. Expensive though, I bought a quart to give it a try. Just make sure to weld shut any pinholes. Epoxy, then filler.

Re: Wife's 48
 

BIG, thanks for that. I hope others see it. I agree. I replaced less than the patch panel would cover, just in case I messed up I could cut it back out, get another panel and start over.

So I got a kick out of the "it's only metal" line. My 85 year old dad has said that so many times I can't count them. He wouldn't teach me to weld, but I got (had) to do the grinding and fitting, so I got to hear it over and over.

I'll try the filler you talked about, and epoxy then filler. Got it.

Thanks.

Re: Wife's 48
 

I checked the 3 corners for misses and got them welded up yesterday.

I had some blow outs on the "old" sheet metal. It seems that at the edge it would occasionally blow out. When it did, if I put a weld dot just off the edge, when I went back to the edge it seemed to hold.

Is this the way you would do it?

I will post pics later this weekend, right now I need to get back on the 4th corner.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Thanks to some helpful criticism and some even more helpful "how to", all 4 corners are welded up solid.

The first picture is of the first corner I did. There were some "holes" in my weld. So I touched it up.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/948/2...9926f147_c.jpgIMG_1923 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr
I know there looks to be a pinhole, but that is the first pass under the second pass. I have not worked it with the flap disc yet.

Then on to the 4th corner.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/911/4...8fc98587_c.jpgIMG_1925 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr
The inner support, with the primer runs on it was still primed except where the welds are. The primer was up inside everything.
Then welded in place.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/974/4...83030508_c.jpgIMG_1926 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr
I had some blow outs, still trying to figure those out, and I had to re-weld and re-grind 3 times in some places to make sure there were no pinholes. I think it's solid. It looks correct and it will take only a skim coat of filler to make it ready to paint.

Now on to other parts. I got the mounting plate for the side vent welded in, but still trying to figure out how to mount the vent on the plate. There is not much room in there.

Re: Wife's 48
 

turned out nice...your blowouts could be from the old metal being thinner than your new patch or thinner from rust deterioration of the original metal....

Re: Wife's 48
 

Thanks Mongo.

I think you were right about some additional rusty areas where the metal was thinner was what caused my blow outs.

I was wondering how to weld it up or does it just need to be cut out further?

I found if I put a small bead in a semicircle around the "hole" that blew out that I could then tack weld to the small beads and fill in the hole. I don't know if that is right, but it seemed to work.

But I'll bet that I'll hear the correct solution would be to cut out another piece and weld in to better steel.

I must say that after almost 3 hours of fitting, I just wasn't up for more fitting. The fitting is the most aggravating part so far.

Re: Wife's 48
 

if you have access to the backside a piece of copper will help absorb some of the heat...put the copper where youre welding

Re: Wife's 48
 

cardboard freight (harbor freight) sells those copper welding heat sinks.


I know you were asking biglass but I will throw my two cents in. I like a tiny gap between the pieces I am welding together, and I hit the first weld in the gap so it grabs both sides. then I tack the next time TO THAT TACK, letting the heat pick up both sides of the gap.

if I try to hit the edge of metal first it blows right through, it seems like tacking to the tack keeps the energy on the thicker weld.

here is what I am talking about with both the gap and the tacks

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4318/...78d386a8_z.jpgIMG_6700 by Joe Doh, on Flickr

that metal was thin and old, if I had tried a lap weld it would have blown through both sides. also notice how I rotated around the part to keep heat from building up in one area. I would quench with a damp rag once in a while, and if the metal was moving a bit I used a sledge on the back side like a dolly and a flat head hammer on the front side to "ring" the tack and take some of the stress out of it.


you look like you are doing fine! it will mud up and disappear as long as you dont leave any pinholes. if you are going for a metal finish you have a lot of dolly work in store haha!

Re: Wife's 48
 

OK, this is a question I'd like some help with.

I used vise grips and clamped the rear drivers side patch to the existing, albeit rusted out panel. Once I thought it was in place I used a cutting wheel on a grinder to cut the new panel and at the same time cut through the old panel. I've read this is the way to make the new patch fit as closely as possible.

Is there a better way?

Also, how do you cut a patch to fit something like that fender?

One of my problems seems to be getting the patch to fit close enough to weld.

Re: Wife's 48
 

ive seen people use the cut thru both pieces method but ive never done it...I put my patch over the area and mark around it with a sharpie...and then cut inside the line on the rusted side....then I sneak up on it fitting...if I was gonna cut thru both pieces I think id tack weld it together to keep it from moving and use the thinnest cutting disc I could find...ive got some .030 discs

on this cab corner I had to build the whole thing as they don't make patch's for it...with no access to the backside I had to put a backer strip in it where the seam is so I left a little gap so my weld would bond to all 3 pieces...thought it turned out decent considering im not much of a body man

Re: Wife's 48
 

a few tips that work for me. right or wrong, dunno. not a pro by any means. take with a grain of salt I guess.
first, the metal needs to be clean on both the front and back sides of the weld before you start or you will draw contaminants into the weld

second, always use the mig wire cutters on the wire before you strike a new weld. the sharp tip on the wire will chisel the surface and start a clean weld right away so less time "waiting" for the bead to "clean up" and start welding nice. by that time you may have burned through.

third, do short bursts/tacks on suspect thin areas. stick a small "ball" of metal on the edge with a tack. that makes the edge "thicker" and it will absorb a bit more heat from future attempts to close the gap. use a hammer and dolly (hammer on dolly) right away to help flatten the ball after and this will bring the 2 sides closer together as well as assist with the shrinking issue when welding sheet metal. a weld "ball" on each side of the weld can be connected with another tack after the area has cooled off. again, hammer and dolly (on dolly). allow stuff to cool between welds.

fourth, move around the patch to ensure shrinkage/distortion isn't creeping in on you so your patch doesn't fit nicely anymore. I usually have success with tacking 4 sides, then put tacks 1/2 way between those points and so on all the way around the patch. you can use compressed air to help cool the entire area right down again before welding more. use the air after the hammer on dolly part is done. hold the blow gun further away from the surface than your brain tells you to because that will help cool the entire area instead of just the weld area.the weld area wants to shrink when it cools so weld, hammer on dolly while it's hot to stretch it, let it cool to the same temp as the rest of the panel/project, adjust with hammer and dolly as required to get the shape needed and keep gaps etc, go again with more tacks

fifth, check the thickness of the metal around the patch compared to the normal metal thickness of the surrounding metal. if it's a bunch thinner then you may need to go bigger with the patch to get out further where the metal is thicker

sixth, if using a slightly thicker patch material than original steel in the area of the patch, possibly because the patch panel doesn't come quite as big as you thought, start the tack on the new steel and wobble it over to the old steel quickly then stop before the heat causes burn through the metal

seventh, a copper or brass backer with somewhat of the same shape as the weld area will help by absorbing heat plus weld doesn't stick to it. it also helps keep the puddle from falling through the weld area, which makes a burn hole, which then makes the gap between the parts bigger, which takes more welding to close, which means more heat to the area and/or more time to finish the weld, which usually means more flap disc time, which means more heat build up, which means more distortion, which....you get it. you can use a flattened out piece of copper pipe. I have a few of different sizes and shapes from different diameters of pipe and have found them handy for this. a small handle can easily be put on them to stop heat transfer to your welding glove. a well placed magnet or vice grip can also be handy to keep them in place. magnets will cause disruption of the pig weld though.

eighth, have you played with wire speed and voltage settings (I assume you are mig welding) to see if a lower voltage or more/less wire speed would help?

ninth, sometimes what has worked for me is to start a tack, with a bit more wire speed, but make it short, time wise, and leave the wire in the weld puddle. let it cool off for a sec and do a second tack right away. there is no waiting for the weld bead to strike and cleanup because the wire is already embedded in the metal. this will allow you to get a bigger "ball" of weld metal on the edge of a thin metal patch. this also works when you have good fitting well spaced parts and don't have to worry about burn through so much, you just want to lay down a longer bead without heating up the area and then possibly burning through. you can do a short burst, leave the wire in the bead, wait for the glow to fade through the welding helmet screen, then do another short burst and pull off. hammer on dolly, allow to cool, do another spot somewhere else on the patch.

tenth, when you have an area with some of those weld "balls" built up on the edges you can connect them with a short burst in a circular pattern and watch them fill in the middle themselves. a copper backer helps here. then hammer on dolly right away, cool, metal finish, check for pinholes with a bright light on the back side in a dim area, epoxy prime, fill as required, etc. you can also check for pinholes using solvent or brake clean sprayed on the back side of the patch. it usually finds it's way through the small spaces especially if "helped" with some compressed air (use a solvent that doesn't evaporate as quickly or use lots). if you get a wet spot on the front side then you have a pinhole. a helper is a good thing to have for this job. remember the solvent is flammable so be careful with it when welding/grinding etc. it's a good idea to have a fire extinguisher around closeby anyways, whenever welding/grinding etc

that's it, I'm outta fingers, you got 10. lol

Re: Wife's 48
 

nice work and planning there mono.

ok, one more tip. if you have cleco fasteners, like mono has in his post, you can use them as panel clamps through the seams of the 2 parts if you can get some access to the back side. this works well on curved parts, like mono's post shows. make a 1/2 a hole, that would be the same size as the normal cleco hole would be, on each part, at matching areas on the seam,, then match up the parts and put a cleco through the (now complete when the two 1/2's are together) hole and use a small "washer" on the back side for the cleco to grip into. basically you are lining up the two 1/2 holes, one in the patch panel and one in the original panel, to make a complete hole when the 2 parts come together. the cleco fits in the hole and holds itself in by using the washer on the back side to grip into. when the cleco's are removed the little washer can usually be fished out with a magnet.

ok, thats 11 so you owe me a finger (not the middle one, haha)

Re: Wife's 48
 

the cleco trick works good if you want the 2 parts tight together. forgot to mention that.

Re: Wife's 48
 

I got a set of butt weld clamps at cardboard frieght to do my bed shortening, they worked perfectly and were 6 bucks!

Re: Wife's 48
 

Thanks guys! As I am going along, I'm trying to incorporate what you all do to help me figure out what works for me.

I think I'm getting better with the MIG, and when I had blowouts I worked through them as described.

When cutting out an "oval" patch like the fender, what did you use to cut it out?

I've been using a grinder with a cutting wheel and that is pretty good for straight lines, but how do you do curves? Before I start on the fenders, which I'd like to get as smooth as possible, I may need to learn a new way to cut out for my patches.

I am butt welding the patches. I would like to start learning more about hammer on/off dolly, and will on the next patches. I'd like to get as much metal finish as possible. These first few patches are going to have filler, it will be a thin coat, but you won't be able to see the back side. On the fenders I have to do better.

Re: Wife's 48
 

years ago in a fit of clarity I bought a quality air nibbler, and except for the little half moons of death it makes just the nicest cuts you have ever seen. usually cut over a bucket because those little niblets will ruin your day/week/year, even bought a magnet sweeper just to make sure they dont get lodged in my shoes and scratch the floor

here is the rust hole from that fender. needed a BIIIIG patch.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4330/...a8b1ae42_z.jpgIMG_3177 by Joe Doh, on Flickr

luvckily the spare bed had a chunk of fender on it I cut the hole and laid the patch over it then used spray paint from the bottom to transfer the exact cutout size!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/...3a0c3f59_z.jpgIMG_6697 by Joe Doh, on Flickr

Re: Wife's 48
 

I use a scribe and snips. Zero clearance, no gap. I rarely use clecos and never use butt clamps. Magnets to hold in place while tack welding. Weld, grind, hammer, repeat. When the metal starts to get out of shape, stop welding. Correct it, and get it back into shape.

Re: Wife's 48
 

you'll find that not ever situation is the same....I've used magnets, panel clamps, clecos, slight flange, and just whatever gets the job done.....not saying I'm right but it works....you can't always use the exact same process. ....

Re: Wife's 48
 

Guys, thank you all. Very informative! I will try and improve with your suggestions. Thanks!

Re: Wife's 48
 

OK, this isn't all I got done today, but it shows that I am listening.

First I had a hole in the cowl.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/976/2...763e5952_c.jpgIMG_1929 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr

That patch to the right isn't mine, it came with the truck.

So I used my new metal snips to fit a patch, first scribing the piece to be cut and then test fitting. I filed the hole until it fit.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/960/2...8d296b26_c.jpgIMG_1928 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr

Then I welded it in place and used a die grinder with a cutting wheel to take off the excess weld.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/906/2...d25b0d81_c.jpgIMG_1930 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr

Yes, I still need to work some more on that old patch. It is right over a support brace and in a very difficult spot. I tried to hammer and dolly it up and got some of it to come up, but not enough. Back to my patch

Then I grabbed a flap disc and here is what I have.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/829/2...a854e41d_c.jpgIMG_1932 by Robert Moorman, on Flickr

I then took a hammer and dolly and started practicing on raising it where it was low and lowering where it was high, and it is pretty close.

Oh, no pinholes. I used a light on the outside with me on the inside looking, and then vice versa. It is solid.

Re: Wife's 48
 

looking good....did you grind/sand off the paint on both sides of the hole before you weled the patch in?...I can see a little burnt paint there so I had to ask..patch fits good.....now repeat this about 47 times filling unneeded holes....then it gets old.....

Re: Wife's 48
 

I did not get the paint off of the back side. I forgot! Next time.

I'm getting the nibbler today and will see how it works on some really ugly firewall "cut out holes". Someone really hacked up where the steering column goes through.

Mongo, you are right. I looked at the firewall last night and just shook my head. There are SOOO many holes.

Re: Wife's 48
 

Excellent. You got this...

Re: Wife's 48
 

I started "tuning" the mig yesterday. Slower wire speed more heat. I'm running it pretty hot, D on my settings on my little Lincoln, and the wire speed I kept slowing down because I was getting a lot of build up on the top of the weld. I'm not at about 3.5.

I know more heat can blow holes if not controlled. I just don't know if I'm doing this part right. I started cleaning up grinding dust today, and One and One-half hours later I got most of the dust up. Wow this makes a lot of dust.

I went with the easy weld wire because it is supposed to leave a smaller "crown" on top of the weld. It is also supposed to be easier and quicker to grind. I can vouch that it is easier and faster to grind down, but I guess I'm not "tuned" in on the welder enough to leave those little "spots" on top of a good weld.