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-   -   47-55.1 Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing... (http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=791083)

Livemeyer 07-30-2019 07:21 PM

Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Oh boy...

After the discussions about why to buy the American made brands of steering column instead of cheap Chinese columns, I bit the bullet and purchased a Flaming River 30-inch polished column.

Silly me I thought you unbolt the original column at the mount under the dash, undo the four bolts that hold the mast jacket housing end column, pull out the old one and put the new one in. I cracked that old column open and quickly realized my disconnect. Now, to figure this out.

I get from looking at the new FR column that I will need a universal joint at the end of it, connected to some sort of shaft that then connects to...???

Should I be leaving the end of the original steering shaft along with the steering box components alone? Am I physically cutting the shaft somewhere? And what attaches to that round end? I guess I'm kinda lost here...

Livemeyer 07-30-2019 07:33 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
My questions keep piling on the more research I do.

Do I need a rag joint? What's my steering shaft size? Isn't the steering shaft hardened steel? If I need to cut it, how do I do that? Does the mast jacket housing end cover come off of the mast jacket? (I figure it does, otherwise how do you get the mast column removed through the firewall) Is a double-D joint one size only or do I need to be specific on size?

Livemeyer 07-30-2019 07:39 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
I guess this video sort of helps... need that shaft coming out of steering box, that specific u-joint, another shaft, probably a double-d shaft, and a u-joint that attaches that to the FR column...

https://youtu.be/rFpA7XyoBq8

mongocanfly 07-30-2019 08:14 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
what steering box are you using?
u-joints and DD shaft are commonly used...but youll need to know what sizes to get..
1st ..determine the spline count of your steering box..if it has splines...not sure what you have..
the other side of the u-joint will need to be 3/4" DD male....then i would use the 1"DD female...this way the shaft will slip..one inside the other...then the upper joint will be 1"DD u-joint...the other side of the u_joint will be whatever the FR shaft is..
rag joint is entirely up to you..youll get a little more vibration without one..ive run without with no issues

i use a grinder with a cutting disc to cut steering shafts

going back and re-reading i think you still have all the stock steering..correct?
if so itll be a good time to upgrade your steering box...does the column tube go into the steering box?..
i would rip it all out ..replace steering box...mount the column where you want it..and then measure for the u-joints and DD shafts
for DD shafts and joints i use borgeson products

e015475 07-30-2019 08:18 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Do I need a rag joint

I wouldn't. Use universal joints instead.

What's my steering shaft size?

Measure it. A set of HF digital calipers is less than $15. In a pinch you can wrap a piece of paper around it and measure the circumference with a ruler and divide by 3.1459

Isn't the steering shaft hardened steel?

Probably not

If I need to cut it, how do I do that?


I'd use a cut off wheel in a 4" angle grinder

Does the mast jacket housing end cover come off of the mast jacket?

The shaft got in there so it has to come out. If you are going to use the factory box, suggest you reference the factory manual on how to disassemble the steering box..

To connect the new column to the factory box, I'd suggest that you cut the factory steering shaft and cut it to a double D. To do this, clamp the factory shaft in a vice and grind the double D with a angle grinder, stopping often to check fit. Do the last bit with a file to get a near perfect fit. I've welded universal joints to factory shafts, but it is always a risky proposition with heat on the bearings.

This place sells top quality universal joints and steering shafts-

https://sweetmfg.biz/home.php

Their components are not cheap, but quality if first rate. You can buy chinese versions cheaper. Your choice and your life.

joedoh 07-31-2019 12:26 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
if you are using the stock steering box you will:

cut the steering shaft/tube about 3 inches longer than your desired length

then cut just the tube back to the length you want, leaving 3" or so of shaft sticking out.

you will need a bearing to put in the tube to center the shaft and give some support, if I remember your other thread you bought one for the top of the tube, it may work down low on the box.

cut/grind the shaft into a DD shape till a u joint fits it. (pay attention to phasing between the upper and lower u joints, you want the u joints to be "in phase" with each other. this will probably require you to have the steering pointing straight ahead and maybe do the following step first)

install your new column, install a u joint at the bottom. between the two joints install a dd shaft.


on an AD you cannot remove the shaft or the tube from the steering box easily. the cab is actually intended to be lifted off the steering shaft, no I AM NOT KIDDING. if you do it the way I outlined, you can cut the shaft and tube and just pull it through the firewall.

Livemeyer 07-31-2019 12:27 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by e015475 (Post 8567734)
Do I need a rag joint

I wouldn't. Use universal joints instead.

What's my steering shaft size?

Measure it. A set of HF digital calipers is less than $15. In a pinch you can wrap a piece of paper around it and measure the circumference with a ruler and divide by 3.1459

Isn't the steering shaft hardened steel?

Probably not

If I need to cut it, how do I do that?


I'd use a cut off wheel in a 4" angle grinder

Does the mast jacket housing end cover come off of the mast jacket?

The shaft got in there so it has to come out. If you are going to use the factory box, suggest you reference the factory manual on how to disassemble the steering box..

To connect the new column to the factory box, I'd suggest that you cut the factory steering shaft and cut it to a double D. To do this, clamp the factory shaft in a vice and grind the double D with a angle grinder, stopping often to check fit. Do the last bit with a file to get a near perfect fit. I've welded universal joints to factory shafts, but it is always a risky proposition with heat on the bearings.

This place sells top quality universal joints and steering shafts-

https://sweetmfg.biz/home.php

Their components are not cheap, but quality if first rate. You can buy chinese versions cheaper. Your choice and your life.

OK, yes, factory original steering box. Eventually I will upgrade to IFS and power steering so just wanted to do this part with the original box for now. I have concern about disassembling the box, it is almost 70 years old, if I disassemble it and it needs rebuilding then I'm really hurting in that I don't want to spend the money for that when I will eventually upgrade anyway. I'm way overdue for buying a digital caliper, guess I will make that a priority, however it's the stock column it should be a standard size shouldn't someone just know what it is? So I have the angle grinder and 4" cutoff wheel, but you're proposing I remove the shaft so I can cut it. What happens then with the mast jacket and the housing end? I picture this open tube... with a shaft coming out of the middle of it... can't be right, dust dirt moisture would get in there. Maybe i'm not seeing something right. But I do see your vision of cutting and grinding down the sides of the steering shaft to make a double D. I could see doing this if I just want to straight-up mate the steering shaft to the end of the new column, but this doesn't seem safe to me, I think I'd feel better about mating the steering column to a U-joint and the using a 6" steering shaft (https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...OrderCalculate) between the two u-joints. I guess I'd need some sort of U-joint on the steering column end just gotta figure out what.

And FYI I do have the manual, which was my first go-to after I removed the housing end and didn't see what I liked. I stopped short when I saw that I was going to need some specialized tools to completely remove the steering box. I mean, I was after replacing the steering column not a complete front end steering and suspension rebuild.

Maybe I can cut and remove the mast column first, take some measurements and cut the shaft while it's still mounted? Maybe I stuff something inside the bottom of the mast column so debris doesn't fall into the box while cutting?

I will have a look at your link for parts and ideas, thank you for a great response, very helpful.

Livemeyer 07-31-2019 12:43 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joedoh (Post 8567881)
if you are using the stock steering box you will:

cut the steering shaft/tube about 3 inches longer than your desired length

then cut just the tube back to the length you want, leaving 3" or so of shaft sticking out.

you will need a bearing to put in the tube to center the shaft and give some support, if I remember your other thread you bought one for the top of the tube, it may work down low on the box.

cut/grind the shaft into a DD shape till a u joint fits it. (pay attention to phasing between the upper and lower u joints, you want the u joints to be "in phase" with each other. this will probably require you to have the steering pointing straight ahead and maybe do the following step first)

install your new column, install a u joint at the bottom. between the two joints install a dd shaft.


on an AD you cannot remove the shaft or the tube from the steering box easily. the cab is actually intended to be lifted off the steering shaft, no I AM NOT KIDDING. if you do it the way I outlined, you can cut the shaft and tube and just pull it through the firewall.

Very helpful! I get it now! So this way I will need only one universal joint, right? Will connect the bottom of steering column that has a double D shaft to a ground-down-into-a-double-d-shape steering shaft.

FYI from my other post I'm glad you remember, I actually didn't buy the mast column bearing because I didn't think I would need it since I was going to replace the column. I can see now how I could buy a new one and use that down low to fill the hole in the mast column.

Actually, re-reading your post I think you say to get the DD shaft and put in between the two u-joints, one at the column and and one at the steering box end. And, considering my steering box was moved 2-3 inches over to make room for SBC exhaust, this would allow my steering column to be aligned straight in the cab and the u-joints can handle the misalignment. Great! Thank you!

joedoh 07-31-2019 12:48 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
no problem.

the desire will be, when you see the price of good u joints, to find cheaper u joints. dont do it. use quality parts, I like borgeson. I just ordered 245 dollars worth of borgeson u joints and a collapsible steering shaft (needed for my application) as a matter of fact. could have saved a lot on shiny chrome versions.

dsraven 07-31-2019 01:13 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
post some pics of what you have there. the box was moved over to accommodate the engine? does that not mess with the steering geometry?
the guys nailed it. very knowledgeable boys. been around the block a few times maybe.

Livemeyer 07-31-2019 01:13 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joedoh (Post 8567896)
no problem.

the desire will be, when you see the price of good u joints, to find cheaper u joints. dont do it. use quality parts, I like borgeson. I just ordered 245 dollars worth of borgeson u joints and a collapsible steering shaft (needed for my application) as a matter of fact. could have saved a lot on shiny chrome versions.

Oh man, more money! I gotta say, I wouldn't know the difference between a good and a cheap u-joint, but I'll look into what the normal resellers sell, I'll search Borgeson too. I'm a bit frustrated as I finally got the truck on the road for the summer and I decide to dive into this issue, which took it right off the road again.

At least at this point I haven't cut anything so I can decide to button it back up and fix it later. Irony is purchasing the steering column for $600 but still needing that mast jacket bearing for $25 for that mod. I can opt to install the bearing at the steering wheel end for now and re-use it down the road for this steering mod.

dsraven 07-31-2019 01:25 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
or
bolt it back up and find a used box that you can mod while still driving the truck
possibly joedoh may have one, he does S10 swaps on those trucks

Livemeyer 07-31-2019 02:11 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dsraven (Post 8567903)
or
bolt it back up and find a used box that you can mod while still driving the truck
possibly joedoh may have one, he does S10 swaps on those trucks

I think I'll pass on this option. The big question I had going into this build was how much can I improve before I bite the bullet and spend $$$$ for IFS, to include power steering, rack and pinion, etc. I didn't want to spend money twice, but did want to make improvements while not putting the truck down for weeks or months. The burning question I was battling a few weeks ago was "can I improve the truck with a new steering column without having to buy things again for IFS build." I am finding the answer to be, "yes, sort of." I had been asking if improving to power steering was something that had to wait for the IFS upgrade, and generally the answer was yes.

dsraven 07-31-2019 10:31 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
not adding p/s would def contribute a bunch of cash to the ifs swap budget.
don't disassemble the box, work with what you have
let me get this right, you have a new column. it has bearings at both ends like normal finished column would. you just need a wheel to install on it. the issue you want answers for is how to connect it to the steering box, correct?

if you have 3 on the tree shifter remove the linkages, wiring etc so the column is simply sitting in the truck held with the mount to the dash.
recip or zip disc the column several inches higher than you actually need above the box. cut it right off but be careful because there is a shaft inside a tube. the column tube is pressed into the box and the shaft is one long part integral to the gear inside the box so simply cut it off and remove the upper part of the column trough the cab, like normal steering columns would be pulled out.
now you can slip your new column into position and see where you need to cut off the old remaining column stub for best fitment to the new column. mostly the ones I have seen leave a couple of inches above the old box so there is room to work. there is a kit out there somewhere that has a DD u joint and a piece of tape or paper that you would put on the column shaft of the old box and it shows exactly where to grind off the shaft so the new DD u joint will fit perfectly. long story short, get rid of the outer tube as close to the box as possible so it is out of the way, then fix the shaft so a DD ujoint will fit. make sure to line up the new column steering wheel so it is straight ahead and then make sure the steering box is also centered and then do the grind on the old steering box input shaft so the steering wheel lines up centered at the end of the project. then all you need is a ujoint for the bottom of the column, some DD shaft with a slip joint in it and some time to bolt it all up. then the wiring and shifter job. do a google search for a steering shaft kit with slip joint maybe you will luck out. the new column should have a support at the floor and be mounted to the dash at the upper end so there would be no need for a support bearing in the middle of the new column shaft.
again, pics say a thousand words. post up what you are working with a get some better answers that way once we can see the project. lots of these trucks get the same treatment what you are proposing so you are re-inventing the wheel or anything.

e015475 07-31-2019 11:16 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
"if I disassemble it and it needs rebuilding then I'm really hurting"

If it does need rebuilding and you don't do it, you really will be hurting.

The cheap way out to support the lower shaft is to measure the shaft and the inner diameter of the tube and put a bearing in there. Where I live, we still have a local bearing supplier that you can walk in with dimensions you need, tell the counter guy what you are going to use it for, and walk out with a bearing. You might try googling 'bearing suppliers near me' and see if there's one where you live. The OD of the bearing is likely 1.75" and the shaft is 0.75", A Chinese bearing should be less than $10. Bearings come in all sorts of 'fits' from interference (must be pressed on) or clearanced (fits loosely over the shaft) and I'd look for one with a couple thou clearance.

The better way to fix it would be to buy a 'column saver' to support the lower shaft' https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-cp175bcs. You can spend a day hunting-down a bearing or buy your way out for $70

Joedoh says -

on an AD you cannot remove the shaft or the tube from the steering box easily. the cab is actually intended to be lifted off the steering shaft, no I AM NOT KIDDING. if you do it the way I outlined, you can cut the shaft and tube and just pull it through the firewall.To get the Ujoint on the factory box shaft

Is it easy enough to remove the steering box with the shaft/tube cut off so you can cut the double D on the bench? Or do you recommend grinding a DD with the box in the truck?

"Oh man, more money! I gotta say, I wouldn't know the difference between a good and a cheap u-joint"

The way to tell is the price, and you get what you pay for. A Borgeson or Sweet will cost 2-3X more than a cheap one on fleabay.

I didn't want to spend money twice Welcome to the world of custom fabrication. For me, spending money twice would be an improvement. Your best bet is to do research here and listen to guys with lots of experience like Joedoh and dsraven

joedoh 07-31-2019 12:49 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dsraven (Post 8567903)
or
bolt it back up and find a used box that you can mod while still driving the truck
possibly joedoh may have one, he does S10 swaps on those trucks


fat chance :lol:

these are the trucks I start with.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1787/...2c486376_b.jpg
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1552439655
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1553210738


I think you would have better steering parts come out of lake michigan

mick53 07-31-2019 04:55 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
You can remove the shaft out the bottom if you loosen the inner fender and maybe take a header off. On a 235.

Livemeyer 07-31-2019 08:58 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dsraven (Post 8568015)
not adding p/s would def contribute a bunch of cash to the ifs swap budget.
don't disassemble the box, work with what you have
let me get this right, you have a new column. it has bearings at both ends like normal finished column would. you just need a wheel to install on it. the issue you want answers for is how to connect it to the steering box, correct?

if you have 3 on the tree shifter remove the linkages, wiring etc so the column is simply sitting in the truck held with the mount to the dash.
recip or zip disc the column several inches higher than you actually need above the box. cut it right off but be careful because there is a shaft inside a tube. the column tube is pressed into the box and the shaft is one long part integral to the gear inside the box so simply cut it off and remove the upper part of the column trough the cab, like normal steering columns would be pulled out.
now you can slip your new column into position and see where you need to cut off the old remaining column stub for best fitment to the new column. mostly the ones I have seen leave a couple of inches above the old box so there is room to work. there is a kit out there somewhere that has a DD u joint and a piece of tape or paper that you would put on the column shaft of the old box and it shows exactly where to grind off the shaft so the new DD u joint will fit perfectly. long story short, get rid of the outer tube as close to the box as possible so it is out of the way, then fix the shaft so a DD ujoint will fit. make sure to line up the new column steering wheel so it is straight ahead and then make sure the steering box is also centered and then do the grind on the old steering box input shaft so the steering wheel lines up centered at the end of the project. then all you need is a ujoint for the bottom of the column, some DD shaft with a slip joint in it and some time to bolt it all up. then the wiring and shifter job. do a google search for a steering shaft kit with slip joint maybe you will luck out. the new column should have a support at the floor and be mounted to the dash at the upper end so there would be no need for a support bearing in the middle of the new column shaft.
again, pics say a thousand words. post up what you are working with a get some better answers that way once we can see the project. lots of these trucks get the same treatment what you are proposing so you are re-inventing the wheel or anything.

Some good ideas here and I will definitely share some pics when I get time. I don't have to worry about any shift linkage stuff I have a powerglide with a Lokar floor shifter, and from all the excellent responses I now have a clear idea of what I need to do. I will need to buy a column support that mounts at the firewall, I was looking at this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Flaming-Riv...t/401788927593, but that was a quick search I'm not certain if they make one specific to the AD trucks but they probably do.

_Ogre 08-01-2019 12:59 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Livemeyer (Post 8567882)
OK, yes, factory original steering box. Eventually I will upgrade to IFS and power steering so just wanted to do this part with the original box for now.

i would keep the stock steering for now. upgrade the column when you do the ifs install. you gain nothing by adding the new column to the old box, other than a lot of headache and a lot of work

dsraven 08-01-2019 01:43 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
yeah, a swivel mount like that should work and you can blend it into the IFS install budget later. if, when the IFS is installed, the angles don't line up you can simply move the floor support up or down to where it needs to go but be aware the steering wheel angle will also change with that and if your column is not a tilt it may be at the wrong angle. cross that bridge when you get there.
so, I assume your new column has a bearing in the end of it at the lower end to support the shaft. you simply install a u joint on the end of that.
-get a steering wheel installed on the column, one the size you like at least for mock up, with the dish or flat style you intend to use in the end.
-do the steering box mod so you have the tube cut off and the shaft sticking out a couple inches. in my mind there are 2 schools of thought on this:
1)- the steering box input shaft is supported on both ends with bearings inside the box so no need to cut the column tube off long enough to install a support bearing because it has those inside the box already. if the column is simply getting cut off for a new style upper half, for aesthetics or better signal switch or tilt mechanism or whatever, then the angle from the new column to the old box really shouldn't change so there would be no more stress on the input shaft bearings than there would be normally. if the bearing is not installed then the stub shaft could be shorter so there would be less stress on the input shaft. possibly that is why newer style steering boxes have a very short input stub shaft, basically they are cut off right next to the steering box casting with just enough shaft protruding to allow a rag joint or u joint to be installed. less stress on the bearings that way plus possibly easier to get the shaft aligned with the upper parts.
2)-it is easy enough to install the extra bearing in the column tube above the steering box and that way there is better support for the shaft in case the angle of the new column is different than the angle of the old column and it is not a straight shot like before as a stock column had. there is a cost associated with the bearing purchase, though, as well as the labor involved. most would do that job themselves so it is simply a time thing plus the bearing cost.
if unsure on what you want to do then simply leave enough old column tube above the box so you have room to install a bearing should you decide to do that. later, when you have driven it for a bit and have found out if you need the bearing (or your old box is found to be worn out), you can decide if you wanna do the column tube shaft support bearing or you could then simply cut the tube off flush with the box casting if you don't want to do the bearing or fell it is not needed.
-slip the floor mount over the column but don't drill any holes in the floor yet until you have everything assembled and then you can line things up and secure the new lower column swivel mount.
-slip the column through the floor, connect the intermediate column shaft (with the slip shaft capability so it can get longer or shorter as required. you will save money here in the future when the IFS is installed because the shaft will be able to change length some, plus it is better for safety from a front end collision) and hang the column from the dash at the top end. some research into the different column mounts and their amount of drop would be an asset here so you can prefab some wooden spacers of the sizes you found for column drop mounts. even a few blocks of wood cut to the different dimensions of the available spacers would work for mocking up the angle. nothing fancy needed for this step. use some wire or a cable tie or whatever to keep the upper end of the column tight against the wooden spacer until you get the column angle right. if unsure which upper mount you will need at first just stick something in there or use the wire/cable tie as a hanger until you get things connected. this will also allow some in and out movement of the column so you can get the steering wheel where you like it, depth wise, and it doesn't rub a hole through your belly when driving.
-line up the column angle with the steering box input so you can keep the angles to a minimum. change out your wooden column mount spacers until you get the right one. I know, u joints are made to run at an angle, so they don't brinell the needle rollers on the cross trunions, but this is a slow moving shaft so I wouldn't worry about that too much since you will be doing an IFS at some point anyway and you want to reduce the stress in the old steering box input shaft right now.
-when you get the angles figured out grab the correct upper column mount (or fab something to work til the new part comes in) and get that end secured. then secure the lower swivel mount.
seems easy enough, eh?

dsraven 08-01-2019 01:47 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
ogre has a valid point. unless the thing is bent or worn out completely past the point of quick and cheap repair, why not just keep it intact until you do the IFS someday. who knows, you might even like it the old way, lol.

Livemeyer 08-01-2019 02:33 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by _Ogre (Post 8568636)
i would keep the stock steering for now. upgrade the column when you do the ifs install. you gain nothing by adding the new column to the old box, other than a lot of headache and a lot of work

I completely agree - now. I mistakenly thought a new column could just swap in. How wrong I was. I have ordered a new mast column bearing. Since I haven't started to cut up my steering column or remove it, I can put it all back the way it was and do all this stuff later.

I also realize that when I do this I need to get a new mount for the column at the firewall. Flaming River has a generic one for the 2" column, FR20101BLS, https://www.flamingriver.com/index.p...013/FR20101BLS

A previous owner cut up the firewall when the steering column and box were shifted over away from the frame. Pics soon.

dsraven 08-01-2019 05:25 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
it would also suck to do all that work and then find out the steering box is shot.
keep it simple, save the cash for the IFS. drive it in the meantime.

Livemeyer 08-11-2019 12:36 PM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
4 Attachment(s)
Update:

I ordered and installed a NOS mast column bearing. Not entirely pleased as the steering wheel/column still has some play. Not as bad as before, but still, not great. This will get me by until winter when I do the steering column conversion. It's summer, and I have plans for the truck, want to drive it at least a little bit.

A while ago dsraven asked for pictures. These are of the steering column and box, but not of my newly installed mast column bearing.

MIKESAD50 08-12-2019 09:57 AM

Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...
 
I would suggest not leaving your wiring in the clamp like that. It will damage those wires.


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