Stupid starter!!

[MJN]

I need to know what is going on here. After getting warm after driving about 30 minutes and shutting off the motor, the truck won't start after like 5 minutes of sitting. There is nothing, like a dead battery but everything else works. If you let the truck sit for about 30 to 45 minutes depending on the temp outside it will fire right up after the engine is cooled down. The engine never gets very warm and always stays in a normal spot on the guage. Could the exhaust be baking the starter so it won't even engage? I recently changed to manifolds and before had headers and the headers were almost touching the starter. Could they have fried it? The stupid thing is only six months old and should last longer than that. Lately it has been in the 90's here and humid and has only done this twice so far. Thanks for any help!

[HotRod929]

I just had the exact same thing happen to me. I took it to SEARS and they put my starter on the meter and it didnt even give a reading when hot. So they replaced the starter and I havnt had a problem since. Im willing to bet thats what the problem is.

HotRod

[Longhorn Man]

Common problem with headers...even though you just removed them, the damage was done.
IT even happens in stock set ups sometimes too.

[Lippyp]

I have the same problem, very reluctant to start when hot with standard manifolds. When I have saved my pocket money (good job the wife doesn't visit this board!) I will replace the starter and put a heat shield on (Mr Gasket/Jegs etc) to protect the new one. I have also been told that you can use a Ford remote solenoid mounted in cool air to make sure the starter gets a full 12 volts when you hit the key. I am sure that someone on the board will be able to give you instructions on this.

Currently I have wrapped it in some of that heat resistant material to try and prolong it's life as much as possible. Chevy parts are somewhat more expensive here in the UK than in the US and I have some other jobs to do first. (E-Brake cables, driveshaft centre bearing etc which are needed for our annual MoT (Ministry of Transport) road worthiness test)

[Mike C]

GM starters are sensitive to heat. Heat causes resistance to go up in the windings and requires more amperage, it is more prevalent in old starters rather than new. More than even a good battery can provide. I just chucked the GM starters for CVR Nippondenso style gear reduction starters ($150 from jegs.) these are like GM used on the 89-90 Corvette. Not even a hint of hot start problems. Actually, had a battery cell fail in my truck so only 11.5 volts present and the big block STILL cranked and fired albeit slowly... Delco has a gear reduction starter on the newer vehicles that is excellent. Scoggin Dickey shows a re-man 153 tooth flywheel version for $89 and a new 168 tooth flywheel one for $170. This is a good way to go if you want to stay all GM. The CVR starter will work with either flywheel, and yes, it will block mount and function with a cast iron bellhousing formerly equipped with the bellhousing mount starter. Not sure about compatibility with the supported nose of the Delco gear reduction starter and cast iron bellhousing.

[palallin]

Run two wires to the solenoid terminals; bring them into the cab and attach to a fairly momentary contact heavy switch. When the hear soak won't let you start, leave the key in RUN and hit the momentary contact switch: This circuit feeds the power directly and with less voltage drop. Both my trucks have had heat soak problems, even with new starters and stock manifolds. This switch may not be a real "fix," but it's cheap, it's simple, and it works.

[Low68]

I had a problem like that. It was actually pretty funny.
I was watching someone's house while they were selling it. I was over there twice a week to clean the pool. The first time that I took my truck there, I parked it in the driveway, went and did the pool stuff and came back. It wouldn't start. I sat there for like five minutes and kept trying to turn it over, but nothing. So I went to one of their neighbors house and used the phone to call my brother. He worked about a mile away. He said he'd come pick me up. I go back out to my truck and decide to try to start it again. Vrooom. It fires up like nothing was wrong. DANG IT! what the heck? So I wait for my brother to come and tell him that I got it running.
So the next time that I took my truck, I parked it again and come back out and it won't start. Now I am mad. I remember that I had let it sit about 15 to 20 minutes last time, so I sit there and just wait and I try it. nothing. By now I am swearing to myself that I will never bring my truck back to this house. So after sitting in the HOT truck for half an hour, I finally go to a neighbors house again. I didn't go to the same neighbor's house. That would have been imbarrasing. So I call my brother and he says that he will be there in a little bit. I go back out to my truck and it starts right up. I was sooooo mad. So I left and was going to me my brother on the way and tell him. I don't think I ever took my truck back to that house.

[Michael A. K. G]

Originally posted by palallin
Run two wires to the solenoid terminals; bring them into the cab and attach to a fairly momentary contact heavy switch. When the hear soak won't let you start, leave the key in RUN and hit the momentary contact switch: This circuit feeds the power directly and with less voltage drop. Both my trucks have had heat soak problems, even with new starters and stock manifolds. This switch may not be a real "fix," but it's cheap, it's simple, and it works.

What on Earth will that solve? That's exactly what the ignition switch does.

You can remove the relay from the starter (in principle), and put THAT in the cab, but running several tens of amps through the firewall creates some safety problems.

The Ford remote relay is a better idea. Ford puts these next to the battery, on the inside of the fender. You have to be careful to ground it properly, and you will need to run the ignition switch wire (I think it's the yellow one on the starter) down the passenger fender. On a Ford, this relay doubles for the junction already on the fender in our trucks (where the OTHER hot battery wire goes). Then, you will have to open up the starter and hotwire it. Just shorting the solenoid lead to the battery "hot" will not solve the problem; you need to bypass the starter-mounted relay.

[palallin]

Originally posted by Michael A. K. G


What on Earth will that solve? That's exactly what the ignition switch does.

I didn't say it "solves" anything: I said it starts the truck. The ignition switch and its circuit create a lot of voltage drop: this more direct route doesn't. The simple fact is that it works.

[Michael A. K. G]

Originally posted by palallin


I didn't say it "solves" anything: I said it starts the truck. The ignition switch and its circuit create a lot of voltage drop: this more direct route doesn't. The simple fact is that it works.

If you are getting significant voltage drop over some 10-15 feet of wire, you have another problem. Like corroded contacts.

That just isn't that much wire. And your switch isn't going to save very much.

Locate your resistance and fix it. Probably a $5 can of contact cleaner and half an hour with an Ohmmeter will solve it.

The resistance of copper wire is extremely insensitive to heat. The heat problems reported here must be at the starter end.

What "fixes" you have from this approach must be accidental, from disturbing the contacts. Starters do have a tendency to get covered in oil, if the engine has any leaks. Removing and reinstalling the connectors may have exactly the same effect.

Sorry; your switch idea is not plausible.

[chevroletrucks]

Seen this many times before as a tech, especially on the olds 455 engines. The best fix would be to take some sheet metal (requires some handy work) and bend up a heat shield to protect the starter from the heat. I made the mistake of not putting one back on an olds once and I had to warranty the starter within a week. Needless to say I learned my lesson.

[cconnelley]

Summit racing sells a remote starter soliniod that has cured this problem on 2 different chevy's of mine('70 and '72) It sell for $29.95. It has never failed since on either truck.

[busterwivell]

I used to go thru a starter every 6 months on my 402 with stock manifolds. Bought a gear reduction mini starter and put it on over a year ago, and not a single problem since.

[palallin]

Originally posted by Michael A. K. G
Sorry; your switch idea is not plausible.

Yeah, gee: I suppose that fact that it WORKS has no bearing on the issue, huh?

Let me make this simple for ya: often, when the starter is hot, I turn the key. No go. I hit the switch: the engine starts. Get it? It works.

I made the suggestion to help out someone else that has the same problem. I will be the cost of the wire, swtich, and connectors it will work for MJN. He may want to do something different--that's his beef. If he tries this as a cheap way around it and it doesn't work, I'll pay him for the materials.

Sheesh! Try to share valid experience to help someone out, and get grief for it from the peanut gallery. . . .

[Michael A. K. G]

Originally posted by palallin


Yeah, gee: I suppose that fact that it WORKS has no bearing on the issue, huh?

Replacing the truck would "work," too. But it's hardly the best solution.

To avoid 30 minutes of diagnosis, you have proposed drilling holes in the firewall, mounting a switch in the dash, and defeating the clutch (stick) or tranny (auto) interlock.

It amazes me just how much trouble some people will go through to avoid fixing their vehicles. Diagnosing this circuit and cleaning/replacing bad parts is not hard.

And the heat problem reported here may have nothing to do with the ignition switch circuit, in which case, your button will do NOTHING but waste time and defeat interlocks.

If you are going to spout BS, you have to be prepared to be called to task for it.

[Project1970]

Calm down folks, we're talking about STARTERS here.

Anyway...I have the F*rd remote solenoid on my fender...

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/tecref4.html has a good description on how to wire up the solenoid. Plus side, it gives you an easy way to start your truck if your ignition switch toasts (short the two small terminals), and I don't consider it a huge theft risk either...the stupid theives won't have any idea what it does, the smart ones will get your truck anyway...

[barn9]

I got my remote solenoid kit from M.A.D. Enterprises, P.O. Box 675, Springville, CA. It comes with the solenoid, wiring, wire ends, jump bar for the old solenoid, etc., everything except for the battery cables, and he will make those if you know your lengths (for an extra charge, I just got good cables from the parts store). The part # for the kit is ST-1, and it sells for $29.95 plus shipping. This guy makes several electrical related upgrades, and writes electrical articles for auto magazines, and he knows his stuff. The kit makes for a very neat installation (I mounted mine on the right inner fender, close to the battery).
I'm not sure which of the following is the right phone #, but I think it is the first one: 209-539-7128 or 559-539-7128.
This kit comes with complete wiring diagrams for both conventional and electronic ignition systems, and I highly reccommend it because it contains everything needed to do the job right.

One thing to remember though, if your starter has already been damaged from the heat, you can still have the same problem. I intend to go to the mini-starter in the future to eliminate any more problems and gain better performance.

Those old guys were right when they said "If you're gonna fix it, then fix it right!".

[palallin]

Originally posted by Michael A. K. G
To avoid 30 minutes of diagnosis, you have proposed drilling holes in the firewall, mounting a switch in the dash, and defeating the clutch (stick) or tranny (auto) interlock.

It amazes me just how much trouble some people will go through to avoid fixing their vehicles. Diagnosing this circuit and cleaning/replacing bad parts is not hard.

And the heat problem reported here may have nothing to do with the ignition switch circuit, in which case, your button will do NOTHING but waste time and defeat interlocks.

If you are going to spout BS, you have to be prepared to be called to task for it.

I proposed drilling no holes: they're already there. Defeating the interlock--assuming one is there: there isn't on mine--is a good thing.

There was no trouble involved, but replacing the wiring and/or the ignition switch WOULD involve trouble, and replacing the starter, especially with one of the high-dollar ones, is much more expensive. The heat problem here ALWAYS has to do with the ignition circuit: otherwise, the starter would turn the engine over and it would start.

I refuse to be taken to task by someone who jumps into a discussion half-cocked but overly cocky. However, in the interest of maintaining the peace of the board, I voluntarily leave the thread, wishing MJN all the best luck with the fix--whichever one he goes for (my offer remains open, BTW).

[Mike C]

All the Ford solenoid does is exactly what the momentary switch on the dash does. It bypasses the very small gauge wire that runs to the ignition switch. When the starter is hot is requires more current to activate the solenoid. The little wire is incapable of supplying that current and it won't start. Push the button or use the Ford solenoid which is switched off the ignition switch then sends full batt volotage to the GM solenoid. None of this changes the inherent design weakness of the GM starter, but the gear reduction starter sure does...

[Palf70Step]

I had the same trub on some of my old pontiacs and coirvairs. In mosdt cases, mine problem turned out not to be the starter, but the solenoid crapped out from the heat. I haven't had to deal with that sort of problem in 20years so I thought they might have improved things. Guess not...Heat really kills the electronics...in cars or anything.

[MJN]

Okay guys just chill out. I will try a few things and see if they work. I haven't had trouble if I let it sit all day but I will try the heat shield and if that doesn't work who knows. Thanks for all the help.

[my new 72]

Mine was doing the same thing. It left me stranded two days in a row. Today fro over three hours while it cooled down, so I went to Autozone and got a Performance Pro gear reduction starter for 129.99 and changed it in five minutes. Problem solved. Mine got progressively worse over time too, so it was the heat killing my solenoid. I had the same thing happen to my old 280zx turbo too, changed the starter and the problem was fixed. Palallin's idea does work, because when I would throw jumper cables on the old Z, it would crank right up with the extra juice from the jumping car. Just replace the starter now, you'll need a new one soon anyway. The one I got has a lifetime warranty on it so if the heat gets to this one I'll just take it off and get another one. It's a simple enough thing to do. It's not a big deal, so why make it into one.