MSD no spartk 2

[HEI451]

pat70/71, sorry to have "intruded" in trying to resolve your ignition system problem in your initial topic.

I do custom ignition systems, including MSD systems, every day, for a living, for over 40 years now.

Too bad NONE of us here seem to be able to mind read just which of the many DIFFERENT MSD systems you have, but, if we had known, we more than likely could have helped. Without that info, responses by any and all of us, just seem to be to you, as you stated, "bs". I guess the rest of us just have "bad attitudes" about your specific ignition problem, and only want to cause "bs" and problems for you.

I will move on, now, the info I gave is good for any Blaster coil, they had lots of issues, the largest being layer shorting, which resulted in many MSD component failures.

And, this ignition problem ISN'T that "complex" at all.

[VetteVet]

Originally Posted by HEI451

pat70/71, sorry to have "intruded" in trying to resolve your ignition system problem in your initial topic.

I do custom ignition systems, including MSD systems, every day, for a living, for over 40 years now.

Too bad NONE of us here seem to be able to mind read just which of the many DIFFERENT MSD systems you have, but, if we had known, we more than likely could have helped. Without that info, responses by any and all of us, just seem to be to you, as you stated, "bs". I guess the rest of us just have "bad attitudes" about your specific ignition problem, and only want to cause "bs" and problems for you.

I will move on, now, the info I gave is good for any Blaster coil, they had lots of issues, the largest being layer shorting, which resulted in many MSD component failures.

And, this ignition problem ISN'T that "complex" at all.

Good reply Dave, He did mention that he has an MSD billet distributor I did see the part about "No Box" but not which distributor model it was.
I think your use of the term RTQ, ready to quit, is what set him off. If you pay $250 plus for a dizzy it might offend you if some one called it junk.
He probably doesn't understand what "layer shorting" in the HEI coil means either so that might have been a contributor. I must admit that I was taken aback by his BS reply so maybe it's just a misunderstanding. JMO

[FLEET72]

Originally Posted by HEI451

the info I gave is good for any Blaster coil, they had lots of issues, the largest being layer shorting, which resulted in many MSD component failures.

You've got me scared now. How far back have the blaster coils been having "issues"? I'm assuming this would include style coils also? I have one in my '95 Jimmy guess I'll pull it out before it kills the ignition in my daily driver!

[HEI451]

Thanks for the kind words, VetteVet. I didn't start this reply topic to flame or harass anyone, just respond to being called a "BS'er", when that has never happened.

Blaster 2 and 3 coils, along with the high vibration ones, used to be made by Andover Industries, Andover, Indiana, U.S.A. A fellow named Harry used to own the place, maybe he still does. Andover still makes most of the OEM ignition coils used in this country today, on new vehicles. When they were made there, they were the best quality you could get, bar none. Accel and other 'performance' coils were also made at Andover, great quality. Accel coils were moved two years after the MSD coils, to Taiwan, and, Echlin, parent company then to Accel, didn't read the contract, where it said the Taiwanese could use any coil specification THEY wanted to make the coils. Clever of them Taiwanese, not so clever of Accel. Accel had heating and other issues past layer shoring that also took HEI and MSD modules out, just took a while longer to murder them.

MSD decided to move coil production to a company in Mexico, Juarez, right across the border from El Paso, because Andover couldn't make enough of them for MSD. They still made the Blaster 2 red coils, but the rest, Mexico. Immediately, those Mexico coils had issues with the windings insulation, between the windings inside the coils. The insulation degraded, fell apart, and allowed the windings to come together, touch each other, and change their overall ohms resistance rating, for the adverse.

When the layers shorted, the next component, the modules, HEI and MSD, were over worked, over heated, and failed, usually with no warning, and, the coils, once cooled off, wouldn't show any damage. The way I fould this problem was, I built a small body HEI for a Corvette, remote HEI module, and it had a Blaster 3 coil. I went through 3 modules in less than one minute total running time, and only after changing the coil to a different one, did the mayhem stop.

I then carefully cut the coil apart, and found the layering insulation laying in the bottom of the coil. This particular coil was just one week old. From then on, any failed coil, I asked for, and cut apart. Layer shorting was and ids the major reason for HEI and MSD module failures, proven fact.

The Ready to Quit name came from the over 300 of them that I have converted to real HEI, after they failed. Not many people know that to get to that RtQ module, which isn't even a bad HEI, let alone an HEI at all, is housed UNDER the points area, in the taper between the body and post, and the ENTIRE distributor MUST be disassembled to replace it. And, take your soldering iron with you, as the magnetic pickup wires are soldered to the printed circuit on the RtQ "module". And, then, there is NO guarantee it won't do the same thing all over again, a half mile further down the road.

I replace both the pickup, as its wires are cut too short to solder them to anything but an RtQ module, and the module, with a remote mounted HEI module, and that fixes them once and for all. Plus, after modification, the electrics are all readily available from any local auto parts store, NOT as a specialty item only from MSD.

As I said, helps to actually BE in the ignition system business, and be the only person in the shop, designer of my own conversions, builder,. only builder, and hard head that figures out what causes what, well past being told I am a "BS'er" and troublemaker. Mostly, I just fix what others have done, from info that didn't fix it in the first place. Gets old sometimes, but, a lot of gratification when someone has a problem, and we, including this dummy, fixes it and doesn't drive the person with the issue flat broke along the way. For almost all of us, this stuff is a hobby, an expensive one, and, we all expect good value, not being nickle'd and dime'd to death, and out of the hobby in the process.

Just call me "emphatic", from experience.

I really do hope Pat70/71 gets his ignition issues fixed, but, I will demur from adding any of my 'BS' to help along his way. I am sure he would appreciate that of me.

[FLEET72]

Was just about to pull the blaster off of my daily and I saw "Made In USA" molded into the case, so I am feeling a bit more relaxed about it. Thanks for the education in coils, I will be much more wary in the future when sourcing parts.

[HEI451]

I'd be feeling much better about it as well, especially if it were for a later model EFI engine ignition system.

I prefer NOT using epoxy filled coils for any earlier system, including the large coil in cap HEI's. Largest reason HEI modules fail, coil layer shorts, caused by epoxy filled coils NOT dissipating the core heat they make.

Please remember that epoxy is used as a heat rejection device, such as a heat insulator plate between a carb and manifold. This is why an epoxy filled coil physically feels cooler on its outside, as it cannot dissipate its core heat through the epoxy anywhere near as well as an oil filled coil does. An oil filled coil cools like an old car that used a cooling system called "Thermo-Siphon". In the engine's case, it had no fan, nor water pump, went like this. water was heated in the block/head(s) to close to steam. It then migrated upwards, like heat does, through the upper radiator hose, to the top of the radiator, then down through the core, cooling as it traveled. Out the bottom of the radiator, into the bottom of the engine, process continues, over and over again.

An oil filled coil does cooling the same way, hot oil from the core, migrates up, across the top of the oil pool, down the side of the canister, cooling. Then, cool oil is pulled into the core area again, cooling the windings, process continues. This is why an oil filled coil feels hotter on its outer jacket than an epoxy filled coil.

If you run an oil filled coil of any kind, on any ignition system, make sure it is mounted up and down,m wire end UP. Setting an oil filled coil on its side can expose part of the windings to the air area inside the jacket, over heating of that part of the core, severe layer shorting, and coil/module failure.

I just did a modification for a friend of mine here, is in a motor home club, lots of earlier GM powered engines. One common problem is, HEI module failures, wide spread. Even though the engine area is relatively open on a motor home, heat wells up inside the "motor box", and severely over heats anything in the rear area of the engine,m including the large coil n cap HEI's. So, I designed a really easy to do remote coil modification for the stock large cap, moves the coil off the distributor, and uses an oil filled O'Reilly Master Pro coil.

So far, there were 7 people that had module failure issues, fairly regularly. 5 built the modified coil covers and use remote oil filled coils, and, they now have no module failure issues. The other two keep having failures constantly, and their sources/techs keep recommending the same fixes that just don't work. Takes longer time for some people to pay attention, I guess.

I have recorded under cap temps on the large coil in cap HEI's that are on average, 55 to 60 deg/F. higher than ones that have had the coil mounted off the cap. That doesn't help coil and module heating/cooling failure issues at all.

You will not get this info from all of the large coil in cap HEI Gurus. You will get all sorts of info on why it can't happen, why HEI modules inside those distributors with coils in caps CANNOT FAIL, especially from THEIR distributors and coils, even when it continues on, and...on, and......on.

Just more useless "BS" from me to consider.

[FLEET72]

Originally Posted by HEI451

I'd be feeling much better about it as well, especially if it were for a later model EFI engine ignition system.

Yes, it's an MPFI 4.3l V6 in a 95 Jimmy. Now to decide what to do with the 72. Where does one locate a large HEI cap or modification parts to support remote coil use?

[HEI451]

There are a couple of "coil adapters" available to move the coil out of the large HEI's cap. MSD makes one, and once you see it, you shouldn't have any problem with making your own, for less money.

After that, all you need to do is change the wiring over, not hard, and use the O'Reilly Master Pro p/n 2-5195 coil.

[FLEET72]

Originally Posted by HEI451

There are a couple of "coil adapters" available to move the coil out of the large HEI's cap. MSD makes one, and once you see it, you shouldn't have any problem with making your own, for less money.

After that, all you need to do is change the wiring over, not hard, and use the O'Reilly Master Pro p/n 2-5195 coil.

Yeah, now that I have a better understanding of WHY someone would want to remote mount an HEI coil I remembered seeing the MSD stuff in the past. I looked it up and I'm not willing to pay that kind of money so I'm gathering some things to make my own for about $10.

Thanks again, I appreciate you providing your experiences that I now benefit from.

[HEI451]

The prototype I made for my pal is like this.

I made as clear plastic insert to replace the coil in the cap, and closing off the coil "hole". In the center, I drilled a .625 (5/8ths) hole dead center over the carbon brush hole. I then drilled out a tubeless tire air insert, after removing the valve, so a 4mm threaded screw could pass through it easily. At the hardware store, I obtained a 4mm diameter metric thread screw long enough to pass all the way through the tire valve. Add two 4mm flat washers, all stainless steel. then, since I have a LOT of motorcycles, I also have spark plugs that have the wire terminals that unscrew off the tip of the plug. Oddly enough, they are 4mm threaded.

I inserted the drilled tire valve into the plastic insert, then, installed a flat washer on the 4mm screw, placed it all the way through the tire valve, threaded end UP, and the other flat washer. The motorcycle spark plug screw on terminal was the last part, holds the whole thing together.

I then inserted the carbon brush into the HEI cap, spring end up, then, the rubber insulator donut, and then, the finished adapter insert.

My pal, the motor home RAT, hasn't yet sent me pictures of the whole mess, or I'd offer 'em to everybody, so you can make your own.

[FLEET72]

So the project begins. I pulled the cap off of the Skip White HEI that I have been running. It has been on for a couple of years or so and about 20K miles, I'm not sure exactly. The button was toast and the rotor was looking pretty sad. So, new cap and rotor to go with the new external coil.




Down at the Oreilly I give the kid behind the counter my parts list and he happily pulls the parts. He's about to ring me up and he says: "You know this coil doesn't work with this cap, right?" So I explain what I am doing and why. He then says "Wow, thanks man, that's good to know!"

I'm gathering some parts to do this and I'll take pictures as I go and post them up later.
This is what I plan on using to attach the plug wire.


I had a sheet of 3/8" Phenolic type of material laying around so I cut a 3 1/16" square of it to fit in place of the old coil.


Drilled a center hole for the bulkhead fitting to go through.

As you can see on the left side of the above picture I had used a holesaw to cut out the center post of a newer style cap for the wire post but it proved to not be long enough so I ordered the bulkhead fitting shown above. I'll post more pictures as I get further along but that's all for now.

[HEI451]

fleet, DO N OT RUN THE MSD PASS THROUGH. They have issues you want nothing of. If you so have to pass through a bulkhead or firewall, use a good quality rubber grommet, large outer diameter, then, just where the wire passes through the grommet, 1 inch long of heat shrink tubing directly over and shrunk to the wire.

I also highly recommend the MSD low resistance carbon brush for those caps, they do help. Main thing is to get the sequence of parts right. Cap> brush with spring UP> insulator with s[ring passing through it> coil (or, in this case, the adapter).

This kind of brush/cap damage is almost always from extremely low quality off shore parts, and IO will say it yet again, I have seen this from a LOT of these bottom of the barrel (SW) disasters, and others from the same factory in China.

Also, please pull the rotor off the shaft and take a close look at its under side. If it looks at all burned, and/or shows any voltage arc through on its under side, replace it with a good quality part from NAPA, O'Reilly, etc. If there was arcing, there wuld also be evidence of it on the center scroll plate of the mechanical advance as well.

[FLEET72]

Originally Posted by HEI451

fleet, DO N OT RUN THE MSD PASS THROUGH. They have issues you want nothing of. If you so have to pass through a bulkhead or firewall, use a good quality rubber grommet, large outer diameter, then, just where the wire passes through the grommet, 1 inch long of heat shrink tubing directly over and shrunk to the wire.

The plan is to use the passthrough to make the cap adapter and not actually pass through any metal.

The rotor was clean on the underside but the wiper where it rubs on the cap brush was pretty well arc scarred so it went into the trash bin.

Posted via Mobile Device

[duallyjams]

did you get it finished

[HEI451]

I, too, would enjoy seeing the finished project, always looking for new ways to do things for others. Hope all went well with your conversion.

My friend finally made me some pictures of the coil adapter I made for him, but, I will have to find them on the computer, and then, find one of you guys to post them, because I have NO clue as to posting them.

The \carbon brush pictures above are common for Chinese faulty parts, and/or improper installation of the brush in the cap. Correct sequence is bare cap> carbon post, spring end UP in the cap> rubber insulator, spring goes through the center of the insulator> coil.

If this sequence isn't correct, there becomes an air gap between the carbon post and rotor connector bar, and, arcing between same, causing excessive heat and wear, cap materials melting. In some of the lesser rotor materials, the arc can cause burning under the connector bar, straight through the rotor to the center plate of the mechanical advance.

Moral of the carbon brush story, put it together correctly.

Also, under the coil is a buss bar, goes fro two of the coil to cap screws under the coil, to the center position of the three terminal connector area on the side of the cap. This bar is a ground path, coil yoke to distributor body, to engine ground, and MUST be there, clean, tight, NO variations. If this part is dirty, resistance in the coil mounts, and spark failure occurs, but mostly, the resistance from dirty connections builds coil windings heat, and increased levels of layer shorting failure of the coil, and HEI, or other module, like Mallory, MSD, etc.

BTW, the GM design HEI is the ONLY coil, in cap or remote, that requires it to be grounded to the engine, right through to the battery negative terminal. It is interesting that when a remote oil filled round coil is used on a large, coil in cap HEI, the coil ground isn't needed.

Just more FYI for all to contemplate.

[FLEET72]

Well, no, not yet. It's been 32 days straight without a day off, too bad I don't earn better money. But gotta pay the bills.
Here's where I am at on this.

I used the hole saw to cut 3 disks from the same material, I removed half of the bulkhead fitting's plastic to expose the 1/4" brass rod, shortened it to match the coil's and pressed the assembly and epoxied the stack together.



Installed it has the same dimensions as the coil.



I didn't care for the way the assembly will allow water to pool in the top of the cap should water ever splash up under the hood so I cut out one more plate, ground off the braces on the bulkhead fitting and dropped the plate on. still need to drill the mounting holes in the corners and I will probably use a stock coil cover or make something to cover up all of this. or just RTV it...

The beauty of it is it uses a stock, unmodified cap and brush/spring and rubber gasket. So when tune-up time rolls around I can move this over to the new cap just like a coil would have been.

[FLEET72]

Here's a picture of the bottom side of the assembly, it shows how it "mimics" the coil to the cap.

[HEI451]

Looks great, but, I would have found a way to cut the tower down, so the stock coil cover would cover the whole coil area, closing it off from direct water intrusion. Coil wire itself can come out the side of the dist, where the stock BATT and other connector wires went. Just a thought.

Good work, by the way.

[FLEET72]

Originally Posted by HEI451

Looks great, but, I would have found a way to cut the tower down, so the stock coil cover would cover the whole coil area, closing it off from direct water intrusion. Coil wire itself can come out the side of the dist, where the stock BATT and other connector wires went. Just a thought.

Good work, by the way.

Thanks. Yeah, I had the same thought. AFTER! If I get ambitious maybe next time.
Posted via Mobile Device

[HEI451]

An old adage, "hind sight is always 20/20!".

I just call it "further design revision".

[SkeksisNV]

Originally Posted by HEI451

I, too, would enjoy seeing the finished project, always looking for new ways to do things for others. Hope all went well with your conversion.

My friend finally made me some pictures of the coil adapter I made for him, but, I will have to find them on the computer, and then, find one of you guys to post them, because I have NO clue as to posting them.

The \carbon brush pictures above are common for Chinese faulty parts, and/or improper installation of the brush in the cap. Correct sequence is bare cap> carbon post, spring end UP in the cap> rubber insulator, spring goes through the center of the insulator> coil.

If this sequence isn't correct, there becomes an air gap between the carbon post and rotor connector bar, and, arcing between same, causing excessive heat and wear, cap materials melting. In some of the lesser rotor materials, the arc can cause burning under the connector bar, straight through the rotor to the center plate of the mechanical advance.

Moral of the carbon brush story, put it together correctly.

Also, under the coil is a buss bar, goes fro two of the coil to cap screws under the coil, to the center position of the three terminal connector area on the side of the cap. This bar is a ground path, coil yoke to distributor body, to engine ground, and MUST be there, clean, tight, NO variations. If this part is dirty, resistance in the coil mounts, and spark failure occurs, but mostly, the resistance from dirty connections builds coil windings heat, and increased levels of layer shorting failure of the coil, and HEI, or other module, like Mallory, MSD, etc.

BTW, the GM design HEI is the ONLY coil, in cap or remote, that requires it to be grounded to the engine, right through to the battery negative terminal. It is interesting that when a remote oil filled round coil is used on a large, coil in cap HEI, the coil ground isn't needed.

Just more FYI for all to contemplate.

I will volunteer to post those photos if you like. I am interested in seeing them. skeksisnv@gmail.com

[HEI451]

Good, all I have to do now, is find them on this disaster of a computer.

[CRGRS 66]

subscribing to this thread, need to learn more about HEI
Thanks HEI451 and FLEET72 for sharing your skill and experience