49 chevy 5 window Firebird

[w70442]

Hello,

Working on a 49 5 window. Putting on an 88 s10 frame with 2000 Firebird LS1 and 4l60e trans. I'll add some pics soon as I can.

I bought a wrecked 2000 Formula Firebird so I have all the parts from it to use as needed/wanted.

As most may know, the steering box on the s10 hits the alternator on the ls1. Has anyone out there tried to use a rack and pinion for the steering to replace the s10 steering in order to avoid the interferance with the stock location of the ls1 alternator. I know there are alternator relocation brackets but I'd like to keep the alt down out of the way and out of sight.
I would appreciate any input.I also look forward to sharing what I learn as I go.
Thank you,
Randy

[av8tr33337]

I'm subscribed. The the pictures FLY. I'm doing a 51 on a 94 S10 chassis with and 84 Camaro Drive Train.

[w70442]

Hey Bartman,

I got the cab and frame back in Feb of 2013 and have been researching the various swaps online since then. Yours was one of the first ones I followed and saved pics from. Thanks!

Besides the power steering rack and pinion swap, I'm also trying to find out which headers or exhaust manifolds best fit the s10/Firebird LS1 application.

Here's some pics showing what I started with. Not much as far as the cab goes. I may change cabs if I finder a nicer 5 window cab.

[w70442]

Thanks to you and others, I knew I needed to cut the front 7 inches of the frame off. So I cut them off and welded caps on them.

Then I used Jeffs51's cab mount drawing and cut my cab mounts. I used 4" x 4" 1/4" thick. Probably overkill but that's what my local metal supplier had and better safe than sorry.

[ghettoluxury]

I would try to use the rack off of the firebird first. As for manifolds or headers the Trailblazer SS manifolds work the best.

[av8tr33337]

I think these might work for your application. These are not my pics, just some I found on the internet. These are headman S10 V8 conversion headers. I picked a pair of them up off of Craigslist for 20 bucks. Mine are in rough shape, but I'm going to use them for a while. The steering shaft passes through them. Not sure if that will work with the rack and pinion but it's just a thought.

[w70442]

Originally Posted by ghettoluxury

I would try to use the rack off of the firebird first. As for manifolds or headers the Trailblazer SS manifolds work the best.

Thanks for the reply. I looked at the stainless headers on ebay that are said to be for 2006 Trailblazers and they appear to be the same shape as the ones I have now that were on the 2000 Firebird. These hit the rear lower control arm mount at the collector on the driver side.
What year Trailblazer headers are you referencing? And are you saying that they fit the S10 frame?

[ghettoluxury]

I'm sorry for the confusion. The manifolds work never used the headers.

[w70442]

Originally Posted by ghettoluxury

I would try to use the rack off of the firebird first. As for manifolds or headers the Trailblazer SS manifolds work the best.

Hey guys,

One step forward, two steps back. The 2000 firebird rack and pinion will not work. Even if I were to have the inner tie rods reworked to mate to the s10 outer tie rods, the steering shaft input itself hits the frame/cradle right at the cradle and the frame fork joint. It not only hits the driver side frame but it also tilts back too much for the steering linkage to clear the cradle. This s10 frame/cradle is way thicker than the thin f-body K member. I've seen where people have used mustang II racks for narrow applications so if I do go the rack and pinion route, I'll look into one of those.
I had originally asked about using the rack because the alternator on the LS1 was hitting the s10 gear steering box. I took the gear box off and lowered the endinge into place and now see that I wouldn't even have room for the rack and pinion steering linkage to come up through there because the alternator completely blocks that whole area.
So now I see why so many guys are relocating their alternators. I would love to keep the alt down out of sight but there's just no way. Live and learn......

Still wondering if anyone has seen any stainless steel headers for the LS1 S10 swap? All I've seen are the black or silver ceramic coated ones.

[w70442]

Originally Posted by av8tr33337

I think these might work for your application. These are not my pics, just some I found on the internet. These are headman S10 V8 conversion headers. I picked a pair of them up off of Craigslist for 20 bucks. Mine are in rough shape, but I'm going to use them for a while. The steering shaft passes through them. Not sure if that will work with the rack and pinion but it's just a thought.

Bartman,

Thanks for the reply and again for you thread. Those headers are for v8's but I am puting an LS1 in mine. The exhaust ports on the LS1 are evenly spaced apart and those have the two center ports next to each other. I dunno, maybe that company makes that style, that the steering shaft goes through, for the LS1 too.

Speaking of headers, what's the concensus out there regarding stainless or silver ceramic coated as far as which ones stay looking good longer?

[ghettoluxury]

Ceramic coated headers will not change color like stainless and the are much better at removing heat from the engine bay.

[w70442]

Still moving forward however slowly. I've been moving the engine around in different positions trying to find one that will cause the least amount of trouble.
I need to create some space between the radiator fan and the water pump. From what I've read, I could spend lots of money and convert from the firebird water pump and accessories to a vette water pump and accessories and gain a grand total of 3/4" of space. Anybody do this and have any real workd results regarding how much space is gained and whether it was worth it?

My alternative is to move the radiator forward. There seems to be room behind the factory 49 chevy truck grill but I will either have to lower the radiator to fit under the hood latch/rad support or modify the upper radiator support/hood latch by cutting the upper 3 or 4 inches off the top.
I've already cut my original radiator bracket down as other have done but haven't welded them back together yet. I'm experimenting with flipping them side to side. This would put the channel for the radiator on the front side of the hood latch bracket instead of behind it.
I'll try and get some pics of where I'm at tonight.

[alaska gasser]

Why not cut your firewall and move the motor backwards? To me that would save a lot of headaches from having to change and move so many things. I used a '98 S10 frame under my daughter's '46 International and had to move the motor back about 2" to sit where I needed it. It was a simple matter of extending the flat steel portion of the frame so the motor mount had a spot to bolt onto.

[ricott]

The Camaro/Firebird waterpump is the same part # as the corvette, the belt just rides on the inside portion of the waterpump pully on the Vette, and on the outward side of the waterpump pully on the Firebird. The Harmonic balancer is closer to the block (by 3/4 of an inch) on the vette, and the other accessories are also in by 3/4 of an inch.

I had the same problem on a corvette restomod I'm building (Camaro alternator was in the space where the power rack needed to be. The way I solved this problem was by using the Holley alternator bracket (approximately 160.00 as I recall) set up for the Camaro /Firebird pully spacing. This moves the alternator up like corvette. You will have to buy the corvette power steering pump and reservoir, but you won't have to buy (and change) the Harmonic balancer (and it is a pain!).

[w70442]

Originally Posted by alaska gasser

Why not cut your firewall and move the motor backwards? To me that would save a lot of headaches from having to change and move so many things. I used a '98 S10 frame under my daughter's '46 International and had to move the motor back about 2" to sit where I needed it. It was a simple matter of extending the flat steel portion of the frame so the motor mount had a spot to bolt onto.

Hi Gasser,

Yeah, I've thought about that and will likely do that to some degree but the "s10 swap" headers I have are limiting the fore and aft placement. I can move it about 2" back or 8" back by putting the down tube on the rear side of the rear lower control arm mount. Unfortunately, 8" back is not an option given what I want to accomplish. I do believe I can bring it back about 2" by cutting and rewelding the driver side header at the collector as well as the down tube so that they point more straight down than they do now. The collector is angled back now and the down tube wants to hit the rear lower control arm mount. The down tube is not installed in the pics.
Here's some pics. The rad bracket clamped to the fender is actually the pass side bracket flipped backward so that the rad channel is toward the front. You can see that if the driver side was mounted on the driver side, the rad channel would be right in line with the bell on the water pump. I like where the front tire is within the wheel well so I can't really move the cab to gain space. If anything, I may need to bring the cab back an inch since the front wheel will go rearward a little as weight is put on the suspension.

By the way gasser, I read through your extended cab thread. I know a lot of thought went into that. I'm guessing you've done similar things before. It was quite impressive the way you assembled bits and pieces into a complete, nice looking cab.

[ghettoluxury]

You need to move the engine back at least 2 inches. Look at all the space in front of your firewall.

[w70442]

I'm trying to build a ram air setup. I plan to flip the intake manifold around backward so the intake tubes/filters will be facing the firewall. So I need the space between the firewall and the rear of the engine as the throttle body and tubes will take about 8" of space at the rear. I am already going to have to go into the firewall. I'm just trying to strile the right balance. Getting enough clearance between the water pump and rad fan and enough room at the rear for the intake tubes/filters.

[alaska gasser]

Originally Posted by w70442

Hi Gasser,
I like where the front tire is within the wheel well so I can't really move the cab to gain space. If anything, I may need to bring the cab back an inch since the front wheel will go rearward a little as weight is put on the suspension.

By the way gasser, I read through your extended cab thread. I'm guessing you've done similar things before. It was quite impressive the way you assembled bits and pieces into a complete, nice looking cab.

I would try and move the motor back to within about 1" of the firewall. I used manifolds on our motor and that made it easier to move. Also, I would move the cab forward about 3/4" or so to shift the wheels a little further back in the wheelwell, but that's just me.

Thanks for the compliments on the truck. This is actually only the second custom build I have tackled.

[w70442]

Originally Posted by alaska gasser

I would try and move the motor back to within about 1" of the firewall. I used manifolds on our motor and that made it easier to move. Also, I would move the cab forward about 3/4" or so to shift the wheels a little further back in the wheelwell, but that's just me.

Thank you for the response but I think you might have missed what I typed in my last post.
"I'm trying to build a ram air setup. I plan to flip the intake manifold around backward so the throttle body will be facing the firewall. So I need the space between the firewall and the rear of the engine as the throttle body and tubes will take about 8" of space at the rear." I know I'm creating my own clearance problems with this idea but building something different shouldn't be easy. I'm sure I'm not the first to do this but I haven't seen any pics or posts of an ls1 in a car or truck with the intake flipped. One guy posted pics in one of my threads of such an animal installed in his jet boat so it can be done. I just need to figure out how to make it fit on an S10 frame with a 49 chevy truck body on it.
I think I can get the space I need by cutting the driver side down tube and moving the engine back as far as I can. Prob 3". I will just have to recess the intake tubes into the firewall further than I would have liked. Been searching for hours on the internet for a 4" intake tube that has more than a 90 degree bend. Like 110 degrees. Haven't found the perfect one yet. I may have to use a 90 rubber elbow on the throttle body pointing straight up with a 4" metal pipe with a 30 degree or so bend pointing toward the front of the engine to bring it back out of the firewall. I plan to put a T at the end with two filters each facing outward. To keep the incoming air cooler and pressurised, I plan on building a box on the firewall to contain the intake tubes and filters that will mate with ram air box I'm going to have on the under side of the hood which will be plummed to the hood scoops I'll fab into the hood.
I'm going to need tubular upper control arms. What brand is everyone using? With or with out bump stops? Prices?
Thanks again for the replies,

[Jyman]

Originally Posted by w70442

Thank you for the response but I think you might have missed what I typed in my last post.
"I'm trying to build a ram air setup. I plan to flip the intake manifold around backward so the throttle body will be facing the firewall. So I need the space between the firewall and the rear of the engine as the throttle body and tubes will take about 8" of space at the rear." I know I'm creating my own clearance problems with this idea but building something different shouldn't be easy. I'm sure I'm not the first to do this but I haven't seen any pics or posts of an ls1 in a car or truck with the intake flipped. One guy posted pics in one of my threads of such an animal installed in his jet boat so it can be done. I just need to figure out how to make it fit on an S10 frame with a 49 chevy truck body on it.
I think I can get the space I need by cutting the driver side down tube and moving the engine back as far as I can. Prob 3". I will just have to recess the intake tubes into the firewall further than I would have liked. Been searching for hours on the internet for a 4" intake tube that has more than a 90 degree bend. Like 110 degrees. Haven't found the perfect one yet. I may have to use a 90 rubber elbow on the throttle body pointing straight up with a 4" metal pipe with a 30 degree or so bend pointing toward the front of the engine to bring it back out of the firewall. I plan to put a T at the end with two filters each facing outward. To keep the incoming air cooler and pressurised, I plan on building a box on the firewall to contain the intake tubes and filters that will mate with ram air box I'm going to have on the under side of the hood which will be plummed to the hood scoops I'll fab into the hood.
I'm going to need tubular upper control arms. What brand is everyone using? With or with out bump stops? Prices?
Thanks again for the replies,

I think if you plumbed your intake into the cowl top vent and had it open when you turn the key and close when the key is off it would be kind of awesome, not to mention you wouldn't have to put scoops on your hood.

[w70442]

Well, I had to buy two sets of headers but I think I have that sorted out now. The racing innovation "s10" headers wouldn't work for the position I need to put the engine in even though it is very close to the stock location for the s10 engine?? Anyway, I bought their "muscle car" headers and I think they will work just fine. I say I think becauseThere are other things that may affect where the enigne winds up. For one, because I'm swapping the intake around backward, that's pushing the engine away from the firewall. So now the big round bell pulley on the firebird water pump is in the area where the rad should be. I plan on converting to corvette LS2 drive accessories to gain the 1 7/8" inches that gets you up front. However, I'm not crazy about how the alternator looks so high on the driver side.
One of the other changes I'm hoping to make is to convert to rack and pinion steering for several reasons. I like the location of the alt on the firebird set up but the s10 gear box is right in the way. I have the rack and pinion from the firebird but it only has 5 inches of travel and the pitman arm on the s10 gear box has 8 inches of travel. This was measured with the s10 gear box on the garage floor so I'm not sure it really moves the full 8 inches when in use. Anyone have an 88 or so s10 they can check?
Due to the difference in travel between the gear box and the rack, I'll be losing 1 1/5" of travel in each direction which would increase my turning radious quite a bit. Apparently rack "travel" isn't a spec parts houses or alignment shops have on record. I know a lot of guys have converted to rack and pinion and run into simliar issues. I would think that big heavy trucks would have longer steering arms for more leverage but I'm not finding that to be true. Has anyone out there found a factory rack that has more than 6 inches of travel? Any make or model......
I'll post some pics when I get the engine location nailed down.