Restoring Rusty

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by flashed

So Greg ,now that you have completely ruined that old truck ,How much you want for it for me to take it away from your misery ? Really kidding you ,I love what you have done with it .

LOL, $300 all in nickels, ha ha

[Gregski]

spent the entire day troubleshooting the truck

did a valve adjustment following my favorite procedure

with 1 at TDC adjust: Exhaust 1-3-4-8 and Intake 1-2-5-7 valves

than with 6 at TDC adjust Exhaust 2-5-6-7 and Intake 3-4-6-8 valves

all valves needed to have a tiny bit of wiggle taken out of them and then were tightened a 1/4 turn,

except for #2 exhaust, this guy was loose, so it was tightened properly

Did this stabilize the vacuum needle? NEGATIVE

I did return the cheap-o vacuum gauge and bought what I hope is a more better one by BOSCH, since when my buddy Mike came over he bronged his old Pontiac vacuum gauge (of all things) and it read a steady 16 inches or what ever the notches be called

[Gregski]

I also flushed the heater core (both ways) just using a garden hose, with no narrow tip mind you, anytime you need that thing it's no where to be found, and when I don't need it, you guessed it I'm trippin' on it in the garage or out on the patio

bought some brand new hoses and reconnected it back up

Did this fix the overheating problem? NEGATIVE GHOST RIDER!

the plan is to add Antifreeze to the system tomorrow as we are still running on water only

[Gregski]

so lets Summarize the Situation

the truck idles at 650 RPM at 13* BTDC with spark plugs re-gapped to .045

the vacuum needle dances around 16 Inches of Hugs, (even with the newer test gauge) with the vacuum advance canister hooked up, all the InterWebs tell me it's an ignition problem

the truck runs hot

and here's the kicker there is a clicking / ticking sound coming from god knows where in the engine, maybe the passenger side, I say kicker cause its the same darn sound the motor made before I did the top end swap, so how can it be the same lifter or rocker arm or what ever, even the timing set has been replaced, as was the water pump, the cam obviously, and the pushrods, I am so scratching my head on this one, I even used a stethoscope to listen for the sound and you can't hear it with the stethoscope its harder to hear it with it on than with it off

Frustration Level: Rising

[Woodyboat]

Originally Posted by Gregski

...the truck idles at 650 RPM

WOW, my Harley doesn't even idle THAT low. Are you sure about this?

[enaberif]

1) Quit running water! Your truck needs either antifreeze or something like "water wetter" (http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10) if you want to keep using water.

2) You only have a 4 blade FIXED fan on the truck which may not be enough cooling now for the truck.

3) You are running a aftermarket performance cam so you could probably run 16* to 18* base timing and be ok.

Don't forget that you did a lot of stuff to this truck that can affect other things in a negative way; For every action there is a reaction.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by enaberif

1) Quit running water! Your truck needs either antifreeze or something like "water wetter" (http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10) if you want to keep using water.

Last night I drained the radiator and added properly mixed Antifreeze (50 water 50 coolant) FYI I did not use distilled water as I read that water is robbed of all its nutrients and I did not use drinking bottled water since the engine block is 40 years old and I did not hot tank it to clean it, as well as the radiator is all rusted up inside as well, had this been a brand new block and new rad I would have used drinking water, and the wife and kids would have had to drink tap water, ha ha

I feel like I need to explain my thinking process for using water. I was using water because it is much easier to clean off of the engine block if you have to remove the thermostat water outlet half a dozen times, as well as the garage floor. Also it is my understanding that Antifreeze lowers the freezing point of water as well as raises the boiling point, so I do not expect much change in my condition by running the green stuff, but we shall see. And finally I know many car racers that say they have to run straight water at the race truck so they don't spill antifreeze on the track, I know that is a fact, so if it is good enough to cool their engines which they push way harder (upwards of 100 MPH) than I am pushing Rusty (45 MPH, lol) water should cool my truck just dandily provided everything is in order (gaskets, bypass hoses, fan, radiator, etc.)

again Not arguing, just sayin'

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by enaberif

1) Quit running water! Your truck needs either antifreeze or something like "water wetter" (http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10) if you want to keep using water.

Well we added Antifreeze and saw no change, so it was time to try the Snake Oil under duress mind you, ha ha. We opted for the hy-per lube product for two reasons 1. it was on sale and B. it claimed to run even cooler than that Bed Wetter stuff

RESULT: no change and no surprise there at all

This is where I remind you that The Greg is no fan of Snake Oils, he has tried, Seafoam to pass SMOG (epic fail), stop a leak (not), valve chatter eliminator (wrong answer), and now this makes water wetter nonsense, The Greg is a firm believer in you find the problem, you understand the problem, you fix the problem the right way. No magic potion in the bottle is going to do that for you, it will make your wallet skinnier though.

FUN FACT: on the back of this bottle it reads (and this underlines my point / stubbornness for using water) "Using less than 50% anti-freeze will improve temperature reduction." so in my mind that says, use more water to run cooler

[Gregski]

oh great this guy on YouTube had the exact same problem I mean exact, he had the noise on his old motor than he swapped to Vortec heads and still had the noise

SBC 350 mystery noise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B99cClzos1c

[enaberif]

Originally Posted by Gregski

oh great this guy on YouTube had the exact same problem I mean exact, he had the noise on his old motor than he swapped to Vortec heads and still had the noise

SBC 350 mystery noise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B99cClzos1c

What is your oil pressure at? That noise sounds like a lack of oil or lubrication.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by enaberif

What is your oil pressure at? That noise sounds like a lack of oil or lubrication.

as I sat there parked, munchin' on my delicious Ultimate Cheeseburger from Jack in the Box, during yet another test drive, I took a note of the oil pressure at idle, if the notches are even than they go 15 - 30 - 45 - 60 PSI

so at 800(ish) RPM at idle my oil pressure be at 7.5 PSI

is that good or bad? I don't know. Is that even accurate? Again don't know if we can trust that gauge.

I do see it raise to 30 PSI when I am in 1st gear and stay there when I shift to 2nd gear, I think I is at about 1500 RPM during those moments

[chevybuldr]

You need to isolate the sound. Start by killing cylinders by removing plug wires. Your idle seems low to me for even a mild cam. Did you confirm that the balancer has not slipped and your TDC is true on your mark? Over heat issue might be an air pocket in the cooling system. You need to put the truck on the driveway, make the radiator higher point then the back of the block. Just because water comes to the top of the intake doesn't mean there is not a pocket.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by chevybuldr

... Over heat issue might be an air pocket in the cooling system. You need to put the truck on the driveway, make the radiator higher point then the back of the block. Just because water comes to the top of the intake doesn't mean there is not a pocket.

I like that idea, and so I tried it, ended up adding a tiny bit of coolant to the radiator, and there was no change in how hot it runs after, still runs hot

maybe you all can share pics of your happy water temp needles with us, so I have something to compare mine to, please

[rich weyand]

Best thing to use for locating sounds is a long screwdriver. Put the end of the handle against your ear and the blade of the screwdriver on the part. It localizes very well. A stethoscope has too broad a sound pickup field.

Did you check the fuel pump for the noise? It gets punched by the cam every time around, right?

You really need antifreeze in there. Most low-compression sbcs run cold.

You can probably run base timing of 16* BTDC with no problems as long as you have the right vac advance can on there.

Idle of 650 is still a bit high for a stick. 700 for a slushbox in P/N, 550 or so in D/R. More like 550-600 for a stick in N.

[Gregski]

check this out, this is straight out of the 350 H.O. (High Output) TURN KEY ENGINE KIT (19210009) Specifications

Bypass Hose and Plugs section

*Note: Before installing bypass hose be sure you have the correct rotation water pump installed on your engine.

The correct water pump is supplied with the Serpentine Belt Accessory Drive Package.

Install 1 bypass hose fitting into intake manifold and one into water pump.

Take the supplied bypass hose and cu to size, to fit between the water pump and intake manifold fittings.

Install bypass hose and secure with supplied clamps.

Any small block engine, regardless of year, that uses Vortec heads, will require an external coolant bypass line from the intake manifold to the 5/8" hose nipple on the water pump (passenger’s side). Suggested routing is from the 3/8 NPSF boss on intake manifold to the water pump.

[rich weyand]

And here's why:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...tec-heads.html

[enaberif]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

And here's why:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...tec-heads.html

How much you want to bet this will also contribute to his hot temperatures lol.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

And here's why:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...tec-heads.html

Rich I followed the link and read the entire thread, and I got three different outcomes out if it, please correct me if I am wrong

1. One guy says I installed a bypass hose

2. Another guy says i have been running Vortec heads for years without a bypass hose

3. And yet someone else saying i drilled some 1/8th holes in the thermostat

So which is it? Whats the proper solution?

[rich weyand]

Originally Posted by Gregski

Rich I followed the link and read the entire thread, and I got three different outcomes out if it, please correct me if I am wrong

1. One guy says I installed a bypass hose

2. Another guy says i have been running Vortec heads for years without a bypass hose

3. And yet someone else saying i drilled some 1/8th holes in the thermostat

So which is it? Whats the proper solution?

OK, here's my take.

I think the guy with post #2 is the most correct.

Basically, if you have a system that is a loop, and you put a valve in it (in this case, the thermostat), then when the valve is closed, nothing circulates in the loop.

With me so far?

OK, so that's not a good thing. So the General built a second loop into the system, by installing a bypass that runs from the output of the water pump back to the engine, circulating coolant in that loop even if the valve is closed. So all the valve controls now is shutting off the radiator. But coolant still circulates, avoiding hot spots.

They didn't build this bypass into the Vortec heads for some reason (weight? the location already in the block inconvenient?), so you add it externally.

Now, lots of SBCs run pretty cold, like mine. Low compression, torquer cam, runs cold as a witch's heart. So I took out the always-on mechanical fan, and added an electrical fan which hardly ever runs except at sitting (no air flow from movement) on a hot day.

So a guy like me, with that setup, doesn't know about the bypass line, say, so he doesn't put it on. No problem, because his heater circuit sort of acts like a bypass, per the later posts in the thread.

But then some guy comes along who puts in the Vortec heads, and doesn't know about the bypass line, and cuts the heater out because he lives in Cali, and all of a sudden he is trying to diagnosis overheating issues.

BTW, another thread I found, one poster said the reason for needing circulation when the thermostat is closed is avoiding local hot spots, especially where the exhaust ports are adjacent to each other, to avoid (ta-da!) cracking the heads.

So that's my take.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

OK, here's my take.

I think the guy with post #2 is the most correct.

Basically, if you have a system that is a loop, and you put a valve in it (in this case, the thermostat), then when the valve is closed, nothing circulates in the loop.

With me so far?

OK, so that's not a good thing. So the General built a second loop into the system, by installing a bypass that runs from the output of the water pump back to the engine, circulating coolant in that loop even if the valve is closed. So all the valve controls now is shutting off the radiator. But coolant still circulates, avoiding hot spots.

They didn't build this bypass into the Vortec heads for some reason (weight? the location already in the block inconvenient?), so you add it externally.

Now, lots of SBCs run pretty cold, like mine. Low compression, torquer cam, runs cold as a witch's heart. So I took out the always-on mechanical fan, and added an electrical fan which hardly ever runs except at sitting (no air flow from movement) on a hot day.

So a guy like me, with that setup, doesn't know about the bypass line, say, so he doesn't put it on. No problem, because his heater circuit sort of acts like a bypass, per the later posts in the thread.

But then some guy comes along who puts in the Vortec heads, and doesn't know about the bypass line, and cuts the heater out because he lives in Cali, and all of a sudden he is trying to diagnosis overheating issues.

BTW, another thread I found, one poster said the reason for needing circulation when the thermostat is closed is avoiding local hot spots, especially where the exhaust ports are adjacent to each other, to avoid (ta-da!) cracking the heads.

So that's my take.

Thanks for that explanation, I got confused because I read the #2 guy wrong, I took it as No Bypass Hose and No Heater Core, but that's not what he is saying. He is saying all things stock ie run the Heater Core like a [ahem] normal person would, ha ha and then you don't need no bypass hose. Which makes sense, cause [duh] essentially you are running a long bypass hose that just happens to have a second radiator in it, called the heater core.

OK, now we are on the same page, (of the same book) sorry, sometimes I am just a little slow to get things.

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

...So the General built a second loop into the system,...

OK bud, this had me crackin' up and I must give credit where the credit is due, I have not heard that expression before "the General" I like it, I can dig it, I must use it

[Gregski]

Originally Posted by rich weyand

... Now, lots of SBCs run pretty cold, like mine. Low compression, torquer cam, runs cold as a witch's heart...

Rich I honestly did not believe that until the gauge without the thermostat read 150* F at idle while parked and dropped to 148* F while driving with the wind in its grille

Give this man a hand guys, he know what he talk about!

so I took out the thermostat and had to find out how hot or cool the engine runs without one, I mean we are troubleshooting here folks, we are learning, we are gathering information and our data must need be complete so that we can make an educated wild @ss guess at a solution, right?

[Valarius_Starchaser]

Hey now we are getting somewhere we learn something new every day

[Gregski]

I just want to take the time to once again say THANK YOU all of you for reading and offering to help, you have no idea how much I appreciate it. If you all were local I would buy you a cup of coffee and shoot the sheet this morning, or buy you a beer tonight and also shoot the sheet.

Also important to let you know I am not ignoring any of your comments or suggestions deliberately, I am trying to tackle these issues systematically. In other words one thing at a time.

Finally keep in mind we are not arguing, but sometimes a little back and forth is healthy, no one likes to blindly just do what they are told, I like most of you want to fully understand/grasp something before implementing it.

so thanks again, together we will make Rusty happy

[flashed]

Well ,I want to thank you for posting all the details of your build .I love keeping up with your build even if I dont always comment .With my back problems and yesterday surgery I have not been into my trucks but Ive had fun with yours .Keep at it and I will keep watching .
I would give you $500 for it in pennys .LOL