Big Block Short Bed 71

[Coley]

Originally Posted by One Chevy Scotty

I am not an expert in all things, but the SPID tag reads L47 400 CU Inch V8 Engine.....I thought that 400 Cubes was still a SMALL block?

Have I been wrong all these years?

I thought that big blocks were 396, 409, 427, 454....??

The 400 came in both versions...small block and big block although not in the trucks of this vintage....only later on in the mid/late 70's.
The '400' notation on these trucks defined a big block 396 bored out to a 402...but they still used the '400' designation as a good/quick default.
I think the 396 (non-bored) trucks ended in 1970...then they starting the bored out (402 ci) version....still called it a 400 tho'.

My two bits.
Coley

[davepl]

Originally Posted by One Chevy Scotty

I am not an expert in all things, but the SPID tag reads L47 400 CU Inch V8 Engine.....I thought that 400 Cubes was still a SMALL block?

There was a small block 400 released in 1970. The big block 402 is a 396 punched 0.030 over which they started doing in 1970 as well, so it's a bit confusing. To make it worse they called the 402 the 400 in some vehicles but kept SS396 where it had accumulated marketing swag.

The big block 400 will produce a fair bit more power than the small block 400 for two reasons; (a) the BBC heads are far superior in flow to the SBC heads of the day, (b) the bore-stroke combo of the small block was a serious compromise the get displacement.

The small block 400 has a terrible rod-stroke ratio, siamesed bores that caused steam pockets, and so on. It's not a terrible motor, just not the equal of the big block. It is lighter though.

Riddle me this: a .030 over piston for the 396 is (4.094 + 0.030 = 4.124) yet the bores are 4.125 (and 4.155 if you go .060) over. Where'd the extra thousandth go?

[davepl]

Jim, makes perfect sense that the NCRS would accept casting codes and dates if no more info was available. You can prove an engine DIDN'T come with a truck but you can't prove it did, only show it to be plausible.

But then where is the V1130XD code?

Am I correct in assuming that all trucks, engines, and protect-o-plates built that day in that plant would also carry the V1130XD code (excepting typos)?

That'd be enough for me. Actually the dates and casting code and SPID were enough for me, but I wouldn't mind that actual supporting data.

[no1udknow]

Originally Posted by davepl

Riddle me this: a .030 over piston for the 396 is (4.094 + 0.030 = 4.124) yet the bores are 4.125 (and 4.155 if you go .060) over. Where'd the extra thousandth go?

You said piston is 4.124, and the bore is 4.125, but the piston is likely 4.123 to leave .002 for ring clearance right? Or the bore is actually 4.126 I cant see chevy leaving less than .002 for expansion/oil on those older motors, in fact I would think it should be more like .004

[leddzepp]

Mongo not care about silly numbers, Mongo only care if truck rust free

[davepl]

Originally Posted by no1udknow

You said piston is 4.124, and the bore is 4.125, but the piston is likely 4.123 to leave .002 for ring clearance right? Or the bore is actually 4.126 I cant see chevy leaving less than .002 for expansion/oil on those older motors, in fact I would think it should be more like .004

I meant a piston designed for a 4.124 bore vs. one designed for a 4.125. I -said- piston size, but I meant "piston for that bore size".

[jocko]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

Mongo not care about silly numbers, Mongo only care if truck rust free

[FirstOwner69]

Originally Posted by davepl

Jim, makes perfect sense that the NCRS would accept casting codes and dates if no more info was available. You can prove an engine DIDN'T come with a truck but you can't prove it did, only show it to be plausible.

But then where is the V1130XD code?

Am I correct in assuming that all trucks, engines, and protect-o-plates built that day in that plant would also carry the V1130XD code (excepting typos)?

That'd be enough for me. Actually the dates and casting code and SPID were enough for me, but I wouldn't mind that actual supporting data.

All suffix XD 350 engines assembled Nov. 30 and associated Protect-O-Plates should carry the same code.

Not only my engine mis-stamped as I mentioned in my post, the differential is stamped JU2211G, and the P-O-P shown in my earlier post has JU2011G. I am 99.99% sure both engine and differential are original since I bought the truck new.

JIm

[davepl]

Originally Posted by FirstOwner69

I am 99.99% sure both engine and differential are original since I bought the truck new.

That's pretty conservative. Most guys are 100% sure since they've owned it since their uncle Bob who got it from his Grandpa, and there's no way they would have changed anything.

[yote1234]

[QUOTE=jocko;6852464]My 2 cents, for whatever that's worth...

Concur wholeheartedly with FirstOwner, and I'll add a little.
As he outlined, the V113.... stamping on the protecto plate and the block should match to be "numbers matching".


so, in 67-72 trucks, my pecking order goes like this for engine originality:

Best case: Protecto-Plate in hand that matches the VIN and that code matches the one stamped on the block pad PLUS build sheet in hand with matching 3-digit code on the block casting.

2nd Best case: Protecto Plate in hand and matching, but no build sheet (I'd personally still call this "numbers matching" as the Protecto Plate is more discriminating than the Build Sheet).

3rd Best case: Missing protecto plate, but you have the build sheet and the 3-digit code matches. In this particular case, all I could honestly say, as a seller is that the engine COULD be correct. At this point, I would begin to reference the engine build date, etc to narrow down the possibility of the engine in question being in the truck - if dates are kosher, it could honestly be called "date-correct, possibly original motor". So, let's say someone dropped in an "era correct" 72 350 in their 72 - it could possibly have an engine build date on the block that occurred after the assembly date of the truck - proving it was not the original engine... If the engine were assembled before the truck assembly date, then it could be original. Etc etc.

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Hi Tom, just a question re- "best case" to "3rd case"....If both the build sheet and the data plate state the vin#, dates and the engine suffix than why do you not feel the build sheet would be equally important as the data plate? seems that the build sheet is the holy grail of info. when I was restoring mid year (63-67) corvette restoration the build sheet was most valuable for documentation. just interested in your point of view. your friend, dave

[davepl]

I agree, but even though it would satisfy me for the purposes of these trucks, it's still not "numbers matching" even if all the numbers you have do in fact match, because there aren't enough numbers.

So, it sounds like you can narrow it down to the casting and date of install, which is pretty good. They made a lot of the trucks, probably a thousand per day (not all in one plant). So remember that on any given day your truck could have had any of these engines and still be "numbers matching", but only one was your original engine.

These are all big blocks. I've heard rumors of small blocks but have never seen one.

[yote1234]

kool pic!

[davepl]

I stole it from someone on the board a while ago, can't take credit for it. But it does make me drool a little. 50 per full row and no telling how far back it goes...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by davepl

So, it sounds like you can narrow it down to the casting and date of install, which is pretty good. They made a lot of the trucks, probably a thousand per day (not all in one plant). So remember that on any given day your truck could have had any of these engines and still be "numbers matching", but only one was your original engine.

One per minute, across 7 plants.

No problem with using my pic.



K

[yote1234]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

One per minute, across 7 plants.

No problem with using my pic.



K

hey keith.. just wondering .. did you work in the plant to take this photo? or acquire it else ware? would like to talk to an actual 70's plant worker.

[bruceman1968]

Originally Posted by davepl

So, it sounds like you can narrow it down to the casting and date of install, which is pretty good. They made a lot of the trucks, probably a thousand per day (not all in one plant). So remember that on any given day your truck could have had any of these engines and still be "numbers matching", but only one was your original engine.

Hey Dave, Don't forget about the suffix code/Application code. Jim's motor is coded XD, but there are 29 other possible Application codes for 350 truck motors in 1969.

[FirstOwner69]

Originally Posted by davepl

That's pretty conservative. Most guys are 100% sure since they've owned it since their uncle Bob who got it from his Grandpa, and there's no way they would have changed anything.

One can never be sure. My truck did sit on the dealer's lot for 10 months or so... and the speedo was disconnected when we test drove it. I always figured it sat so long since it was a 3/4 ton CST with buckets, not a particularly popular color, no power brakes, no gauges and, even though it had all the Custom Camper requirements, it did not have the emblem option.

Jim

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by yote1234

hey keith.. just wondering .. did you work in the plant to take this photo? or acquire it else ware? would like to talk to an actual 70's plant worker.

I started as a GMI student at Chevrolet Flint Assembly in 1979; it's a co-operative experience where you go to school six weeks and work at your sponsoring unit six weeks to earn a BSME. My first real job was as a line supervisor at Flint Line#1, in the "Fender Set" area. I had 36 hourly employees to cover 27 production operations, including installing the fenders, tightening the box bolts, underhood wiring and plumbing, installing manual trans shifters and SPID labels and hanging the spare tire.

In total I've been with GM Full Size Truck for 35+ years (less four years on the Volt program) across 12 GM assembly plants (and two proving grounds), working in design, development, engineering program management and assembly/new product launch.

My dad worked for GM for 32 years in manufacturing and advanced manufacturing engineering and holds the GM patents for several innovations. I'm also pretty sharp with mid 60's assembly processes, especially at the Pontiac Michigan facility.

I was an "Explorer Scout" (which is like a GM sponsored cub scout/boy scout program) so basically I've been going in and out of GM plants since I was 8 years old. I took one week off after graduating high school and started with GM - after that brief vacation - at 17 years old.

Would that meet your criteria?

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by yote1234

hey keith.. just wondering .. did you work in the plant to take this photo? or acquire it else ware? would like to talk to an actual 70's plant worker.

In the meantime, if you would like to do some additional reading, I would recommend:

My intro on this site: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926

My Pontiac Story: about my growing up years in a family that raced factory sponsored Pontiacs: http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...d.php?t=560524

Some "old wive's tales" and stories from within GM: http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...d.php?t=556607

That should keep you busy for a little while.

K

[Z10]

With regards to Rosette Rivets, here's some information from a court case in Illinois concerning a corvette.

"He explained that the rosette rivets are key in determining whether the VIN plates have been altered. The rosette rivets are unique, and they are not available to the public. Since 1965, all American-made General Motors cars have used them exclusively to attach the VIN plates. Chrysler and Ford began using them a couple of years later. Foreign cars made outside the United States use only circular pop-head rivets. However, foreign cars assembled in the United States use the rosette rivets. Thus, in looking at a VIN plate to determine its authenticity, the first items to be examined are the rivets to make certain they are rosette rivets."

Here more from the Fed's.

18 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
From the U.S. Government Printing Office, www.gpo.gov

§511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

(c) As used in this section, the term—
(1) “identification number” means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) “motor vehicle” has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) “motor vehicle demolisher” means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) “motor vehicle scrap processor” means a person—
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;

but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term “tampers with” includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.
(Added Pub. L. 98–547, title II, §201(a), Oct. 25, 1984, 98 Stat. 2768; amended Pub. L. 103–272, §5(e)(3), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 1373; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXII, §220003(a)–(c), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2076, 2077; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, §604(b)(8), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)
References in Text
The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, referred to in subsecs. (a)(2), (b)(2)(D), and (d), is title XXII of Pub. L. 103–322, Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2074, which enacted section 511A of this title and section 14171 of Title 42, The Public Health and Welfare, amended this section, and enacted provisions set out as a note under section 13701 of Title 42. For complete classification of this Act to the Code, see Short Title note set out under section 13701 of Title 42 and Tables.
Codification
Another section 511 was renumbered section 513 of this title.
Amendments
1996—Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 104–294 realigned margins.
1994—Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103–322, §220003(a), amended subsec. (a) generally. Prior to amendment, subsec. (a) read as follows: “Whoever knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle, or motor vehicle part, shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 103–322, §220003(b), added subpar. (D).
Subsec. (c)(1). Pub. L. 103–272, §5(e)(3)(A), substituted “chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49” for “the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, or the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act”.
Subsec. (c)(2). Pub. L. 103–272, §5(e)(3)(B), substituted “section 32101 of title 49” for “section 2 of the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act”.
Subsec. (d). Pub. L. 103–322, §220003(c), added subsec. (d).
Effective Date of 1996 Amendment
Amendment by Pub. L. 104–294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see section 604(d) of Pub. L. 104–294, set out as a note under section 13 of this title.

I think the bottom line is, you shouldn't remove a vin. If you do, you will more than likely have to replace it with standard rivets, which will be obvious to law enforcement and could subject your vehicle to seizure until such time as you can prove it is not stolen or result in a fine. There is a reason these rivets are used and a reason they are not legally available to the public.

[no1udknow]

Originally Posted by Z10

With regards to Rosette Rivets, here's some information from a court case in Illinois concerning a corvette.

"He explained that the rosette rivets are key in determining whether the VIN plates have been altered. The rosette rivets are unique, and they are not available to the public. Since 1965, all American-made General Motors cars have used them exclusively to attach the VIN plates. Chrysler and Ford began using them a couple of years later. Foreign cars made outside the United States use only circular pop-head rivets. However, foreign cars assembled in the United States use the rosette rivets. Thus, in looking at a VIN plate to determine its authenticity, the first items to be examined are the rivets to make certain they are rosette rivets."

Here more from the Fed's.

18 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
Sec. 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
From the U.S. Government Printing Office, www.gpo.gov

§511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

(c) As used in this section, the term—
(1) “identification number” means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) “motor vehicle” has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) “motor vehicle demolisher” means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) “motor vehicle scrap processor” means a person—
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;

but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term “tampers with” includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.
(Added Pub. L. 98–547, title II, §201(a), Oct. 25, 1984, 98 Stat. 2768; amended Pub. L. 103–272, §5(e)(3), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 1373; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXII, §220003(a)–(c), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2076, 2077; Pub. L. 104–294, title VI, §604(b)(8), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507.)
References in Text
The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, referred to in subsecs. (a)(2), (b)(2)(D), and (d), is title XXII of Pub. L. 103–322, Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2074, which enacted section 511A of this title and section 14171 of Title 42, The Public Health and Welfare, amended this section, and enacted provisions set out as a note under section 13701 of Title 42. For complete classification of this Act to the Code, see Short Title note set out under section 13701 of Title 42 and Tables.
Codification
Another section 511 was renumbered section 513 of this title.
Amendments
1996—Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 104–294 realigned margins.
1994—Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103–322, §220003(a), amended subsec. (a) generally. Prior to amendment, subsec. (a) read as follows: “Whoever knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle, or motor vehicle part, shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
Subsec. (b)(2)(D). Pub. L. 103–322, §220003(b), added subpar. (D).
Subsec. (c)(1). Pub. L. 103–272, §5(e)(3)(A), substituted “chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49” for “the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, or the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act”.
Subsec. (c)(2). Pub. L. 103–272, §5(e)(3)(B), substituted “section 32101 of title 49” for “section 2 of the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act”.
Subsec. (d). Pub. L. 103–322, §220003(c), added subsec. (d).
Effective Date of 1996 Amendment
Amendment by Pub. L. 104–294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see section 604(d) of Pub. L. 104–294, set out as a note under section 13 of this title.

I think the bottom line is, you shouldn't remove a vin. If you do, you will more than likely have to replace it with standard rivets, which will be obvious to law enforcement and could subject your vehicle to seizure until such time as you can prove it is not stolen or result in a fine. There is a reason these rivets are used and a reason they are not legally available to the public.

I didn't realize it was so serious, I guess thats why my little spout aboit making your own got remobed. Again, sorry Admins.