Has ne1 used a two link rather than 4?

[ShamrockCustoms]

oh, also, the way that particluar set up is done, your rear wheels won't be able to have much backspacing because the arms are outside the frame. (that is, if you are wanting to run wider wheels like 10-12" and tub it some) you'll end up with fender contact issues. (clarified for loweredd)

consider that as well......

[loweredd]

hold on here a sec.....arent the leaf springs on the outside of the frame to begin with??????

I think that backspacing on the rim is fine. I have a 305 on mine with no clearance problems whatsoever, except at full tuck, then it hits the bidside where it curves up to the bedrail, but that's my fault for running 32" tall tires.



- Dan

[lotik]

Well...the easiet way to explain the pros and cons is to define how a stock suspension works, first...and for the purposes of THAT explanation, we'll look at a leaf spring set up.

The first thing to know is that leaf springs are flexible...DUH! , not only in the long axis, but in the "cross" axis, as well...although the majority of "twist" that a leaf spring exhibits is actually the bushing...which is why leaves have such huge bushings.

The other thing to remeber about a leaf is that one end...the front...is mounted solidly, and the other end, the rear, is hung in shackles, and it is the shcakles that allow for the compression and extension of the leaf length as it travels up and down.

Finally, leaf springs serve as axle locators, both longitudinally and laterally. Also, the leaf arrangement maintains pinion angle as a function of the rear axle "swinging" on the end of what are, in practical terms, fixed length arms...that is, the FRONT half of the leaf springs.

So...a leaf spring allows the wheels to go up and down, at the same time or independently of one another, they maintain axle location, and they maintain pinion angle, and they provide linkage to the vehicle.

With me, so far?

Okay then, lets look at 2-links, which are, functionally, the SAME as "ladder bars"....and, as simple as 2-links are, they suck, and here's why:

From the perspective of a street-driven truck, the basic problem is that the 2 link design does not resolve for axle rotation, except in the vertical axis. 2 links are simply not an efficient method of suspension attachment for street trucks. And the reason they don't resolve for rotationb is because, even though the 2-link bars pivot at the front...they are HARD-MOUNTED to the rear axle!

Visualize holding a door, like the front door of your house. In this visualization, you will be acting as the forward 2 link mount. Orient the door so that you're holding the hinges; the door should be horizontal, held out away from you, and swinging, up and down, on the hinges. Now, visualize a wheel, one at each of the two outside corners opposite the hinges; the long edge of the door, opposite you, will be the rear axle.

What we've done is to model a typical 2 link suspension. To see how it works, visualize the door swinging up and down. As long as the door is pivoting on it's hinges, with no rotational forces involved, everything works great. Now, try moving the corners opposite you (The corners that we're calling "wheels") in different directions...one corner up, one corner down. See what happens? The door wants to rotate right out of your hands! This is precisely what happens when you turn a corner, or go up a driveway, in a 2 link-equipped street truck. Ouch!

Okay....what about a 3-link and a 4-link? The 4-link is a common suspension design that has been utilized, successfully, in many different applications. Typically, the design includes 4 equal length trailing arms, a lateral locating (Panhard) bar, air springs, and shock absorbers.

A point of clarification: The term "4-link" is typically associated with race cars, and refers to the fact that this suspension design allows for the manipulation of parameters like "instant center" and "anti-squat". Sport trucks, street rods, and kit cars use a design typically referred to as a "4-bar", which is basically non-adjustable. However, the more common usage is the term "4-link", and so we'll stick with that...

One benefit of a 4-link is that, because the bars are of equal length, and the front and rear mounting points are oriented such that the bars are parallel, there is a reasonably unrestricted range of vertical motion for the axle, while maintaining an efficient coupling. In addition, because each pair of links is independent of the other, the axle can "rotate" freely, allowing for roll. In practical terms, this means that when one wheel has to travel in a different vertical path than the other wheel (over a bump, up a driveway), the unaffected wheel stays in contact with the ground. Or, imagine a turn: The body rolls to the outside of the turn, decreasing the distance between the frame/body and the outside axle end, and increasing the distance between the frame/body and the inside axle end. The 4-link design, with its parallel links that allow for some rotation at each end of the axle, is designed to facilitate these suspension dynamics.

Side-to-side movement is controlled by a Panhard rod or a track locator. A Panhard rod is mounted laterally between the axle, at one end, and the frame at the other. A track locator is mounted diagonally between the opposing front and rear pivot points of the lower 4-link bars. Panhard rods are almost always the preferred method in street-oriented applications, and virtually mandatory in air suspensions, insofar as an air spring does not react well to lateral misalignment.

A 3 link utilizes one lower link per side, one upper centrally mounted link, and a Panhard rod. The 3 link design is very common, used in GM full size cars well into the 70's, and is the suspension of choice for a majority of sprint cars. Relative to air suspensions, the three link offers ease of installation, excellent axle articulation, and a great deal of adjustability.

Ok, then, what about trinagulated 4-links? These are an adaptation of the 4 link that angles the two upper bars from the center of the axle to the frame, and this angular configuration eliminates the need for a Panhard Rod.

And how about a reverse 4-link? Well, suffice it to say that I already wrote a page on that about three days ago, which you can scroll down and find, if you want, but the long and short of it is this: reverse 4-links are NOT a legitimate "suspension". They are, in fact, an exercise in failing to understand basic geometry, they are worse than a compromise, they are dangerous, and I hate them

Ok, then...my fingers are cramping


posted from sportruck.com (written by Bill@RoadSurfer)

[loweredd]

Oh man, this is going nowhere fast.


slammin put it well when he said "i need someone's tried and true facts who has done a 2 link b4 as over inexperienced opinion"

Let's not get in a pissing match here, but just please answer this simple question...............


Have you used a 2 link suspension set up?


If not, I would say (not trying to make you mad....please keep this in mind) you are just, in fact, stating opinion. I have a 2 link on my truck and have had no problems whatsoever. No shudder low or high (which would indicate out of whack pinion angle).

As far as leaf springs keeping pinion angle in check, I lowered my 95 Xcab S10, and needed to put angled blocks in the rear to CORRECT the pinion angle.

The people pushing this "2 links are no good" are 4 link manufacturers. Well, duh. Of course they are going to say that a product that is almost always 50% less than thier setup is not good to use!! Think about it.


I know this thread is just going to get worse and worse though.

[Slammed '87]

LOL MAN OH MAN WHAT DID I START HERE????? As we all know everyone has their own opinion, some may be right, some may be wrong. Some thing's work for some people whereas others may work better for others. Obviously from this thread, 4 links have nothing really to prove, but 2 links do, and i guess sorta that's why i asked about them. I thank you all for your input and such. I really want my truck to be sweet in the end, and not "looked down upon" from fellow members. I also want to treat "my baby" right, as is why i wanna do things right. After all this talk between the 2 types, i still have yet to make a decision on which one i'll use, but more and more i am leanin to the 2 link. Even just to try it out, would be super simple. If it fails i can always go route # 2 - with the 4 link. hmmmmmm (thinking) well guys, thanks again, your input rocks, i love this site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! keep 'em comin! cheers

[BaggedC10]

We're just trying to help you save time and money. Many of us have been "there" before and have learned the difficult way.

Loweredd---Do you know who Bill Dermond is? How many miles/months has your 2-link been installed? Just curious.....

[Slammed '87]

oh so you have used a 2 link b4 bagged c10???

[BaggedC10]

Originally posted by Slammed '87
oh so you have used a 2 link b4 bagged c10???

Nope but I'm dealing w/ bag issues myself. My new truck had a 4-link, #2600 bag over the axle, bolt-in C-notch, and custom shock tower.

It's a setup that "evolved" over time. The 4-link and shock tower were added later. My point is---Do it once and do it right. As to why the prior owner didn't.....I don't know.

I have no problem saying the original setup (What I listed) was half-@ss. haha

[70 Jimmy]

Not to get in the middle (I'd hate to ruin the enternainment value) but, the maybe there is a reason not many people are using a 2 link. I've never used on and I never will. I've also never bought a Yugo, and I never will.

It's a matter of physics. 4 link, while maybe overkill in many applications, is superior in every way mentioned on several posts.

Those of you who wish to argue the virtues of the 2 link. Go back and read the posts and write down the stated facts and compare what you know about the 2 link. This requires putting pride aside. Next, do some more research. Be critical, there is some misinformation out there, especially on the net. Next, spend your money like that's all you'll ever have for that project.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by lotik
Well...the easiet way to explain the pros and cons is to define how a stock suspension works, first...and for the purposes of THAT explanation, we'll look at a leaf spring set up.

The first thing to know is that leaf springs are flexible...DUH! , not only in the long axis, but in the "cross" axis, as well...although the majority of "twist" that a leaf spring exhibits is actually the bushing...which is why leaves have such huge bushings.

The other thing to remeber about a leaf is that one end...the front...is mounted solidly, and the other end, the rear, is hung in shackles, and it is the shcakles that allow for the compression and extension of the leaf length as it travels up and down.

Finally, leaf springs serve as axle locators, both longitudinally and laterally. Also, the leaf arrangement maintains pinion angle as a function of the rear axle "swinging" on the end of what are, in practical terms, fixed length arms...that is, the FRONT half of the leaf springs.

So...a leaf spring allows the wheels to go up and down, at the same time or independently of one another, they maintain axle location, and they maintain pinion angle, and they provide linkage to the vehicle.

With me, so far?

Okay then, lets look at 2-links, which are, functionally, the SAME as "ladder bars"....and, as simple as 2-links are, they suck, and here's why:

From the perspective of a street-driven truck, the basic problem is that the 2 link design does not resolve for axle rotation, except in the vertical axis. 2 links are simply not an efficient method of suspension attachment for street trucks. And the reason they don't resolve for rotationb is because, even though the 2-link bars pivot at the front...they are HARD-MOUNTED to the rear axle!

Visualize holding a door, like the front door of your house. In this visualization, you will be acting as the forward 2 link mount. Orient the door so that you're holding the hinges; the door should be horizontal, held out away from you, and swinging, up and down, on the hinges. Now, visualize a wheel, one at each of the two outside corners opposite the hinges; the long edge of the door, opposite you, will be the rear axle.

What we've done is to model a typical 2 link suspension. To see how it works, visualize the door swinging up and down. As long as the door is pivoting on it's hinges, with no rotational forces involved, everything works great. Now, try moving the corners opposite you (The corners that we're calling "wheels") in different directions...one corner up, one corner down. See what happens? The door wants to rotate right out of your hands! This is precisely what happens when you turn a corner, or go up a driveway, in a 2 link-equipped street truck. Ouch!

Okay....what about a 3-link and a 4-link? The 4-link is a common suspension design that has been utilized, successfully, in many different applications. Typically, the design includes 4 equal length trailing arms, a lateral locating (Panhard) bar, air springs, and shock absorbers.

A point of clarification: The term "4-link" is typically associated with race cars, and refers to the fact that this suspension design allows for the manipulation of parameters like "instant center" and "anti-squat". Sport trucks, street rods, and kit cars use a design typically referred to as a "4-bar", which is basically non-adjustable. However, the more common usage is the term "4-link", and so we'll stick with that...

One benefit of a 4-link is that, because the bars are of equal length, and the front and rear mounting points are oriented such that the bars are parallel, there is a reasonably unrestricted range of vertical motion for the axle, while maintaining an efficient coupling. In addition, because each pair of links is independent of the other, the axle can "rotate" freely, allowing for roll. In practical terms, this means that when one wheel has to travel in a different vertical path than the other wheel (over a bump, up a driveway), the unaffected wheel stays in contact with the ground. Or, imagine a turn: The body rolls to the outside of the turn, decreasing the distance between the frame/body and the outside axle end, and increasing the distance between the frame/body and the inside axle end. The 4-link design, with its parallel links that allow for some rotation at each end of the axle, is designed to facilitate these suspension dynamics.

Side-to-side movement is controlled by a Panhard rod or a track locator. A Panhard rod is mounted laterally between the axle, at one end, and the frame at the other. A track locator is mounted diagonally between the opposing front and rear pivot points of the lower 4-link bars. Panhard rods are almost always the preferred method in street-oriented applications, and virtually mandatory in air suspensions, insofar as an air spring does not react well to lateral misalignment.

A 3 link utilizes one lower link per side, one upper centrally mounted link, and a Panhard rod. The 3 link design is very common, used in GM full size cars well into the 70's, and is the suspension of choice for a majority of sprint cars. Relative to air suspensions, the three link offers ease of installation, excellent axle articulation, and a great deal of adjustability.

Ok, then, what about trinagulated 4-links? These are an adaptation of the 4 link that angles the two upper bars from the center of the axle to the frame, and this angular configuration eliminates the need for a Panhard Rod.

And how about a reverse 4-link? Well, suffice it to say that I already wrote a page on that about three days ago, which you can scroll down and find, if you want, but the long and short of it is this: reverse 4-links are NOT a legitimate "suspension". They are, in fact, an exercise in failing to understand basic geometry, they are worse than a compromise, they are dangerous, and I hate them

Ok, then...my fingers are cramping


posted from sportruck.com (written by Bill@RoadSurfer)

Thanks I was looking for that post but couldn't find it.

I had a 4 link and loved it I also know friends that had to replace bushings like crazy and one that broke his axle saddle off the axle with his 2 link.

[loweredd]

Originally posted by BaggedC10
Loweredd---Do you know who Bill Dermond is? How many miles/months has your 2-link been installed? Just curious.....

I have no idea who Bill Dermond is......

I have had the two link on for 6 months now....I drive about 60 miles a day, 5 or 6 days a week. It's a good trip to and from work.

There's no pride that needs to be put aside here. I had an Alter Image 4 link on my S10 in it, and THAT was junk. This 2 link does what it is supposed to, and does it VERY VERY well.

Im not saying pinion angle doesnt change. It will change with ANY setup you use. Yes, it will change more with a 2 link, but it is not changing enough with a 2600 bag to pose a problem.


The fact of the matter is that no one else that has "chimmed" in has used a 2 link. They are going off of info that a friend of a friend of a friend who knows someone who saw a rep from AirRide at a show walk by that heard on a forum that a 2 link doesnt work.

It works, and it works fine.

[loweredd]

Originally posted by fiveeightchevy
I also know friends that had to replace bushings like crazy and one that broke his axle saddle off the axle with his 2 link.

Who's 2 link was it? Do you have pictures of what it looked like?

[loweredd]

Originally posted by BaggedC10
We're just trying to help you save time and money. Many of us have been "there" before and have learned the difficult way.

What else have you owned that featured air suspension?

This is a little off topic, but I remember when I first came back on the board after I sold my Sub and got this fullsize, I was asking about an air over leaf setup. You and another board member told me I was stupid because I was asking about an air over leaf setup. N2TRUX throws on an air over leaf, and to you that's the neatest thing since sliced bread. Why is that? I dont see posts telling him that is stupid and to run a 4 link, but here, Slammed '87 asks about a 2 link, and you jump all over him.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by loweredd


Who's 2 link was it? Do you have pictures of what it looked like?

My buddy Billy from EMA Customs. It looked identical to the Ekstensive originally posted. Square tubing with a leaf spring bushing up front and a flip kit saddle welded on top that mounts to the axle with u bolts.

He had the 2 link for a couple years and it finally ripped the spring perch off the axle. He has pics of it and it wasn't pretty. He posts over on sportruck.com as layingframe98.

I have seen plenty of 2 links and laugh everytime I see them go up an incline and the opposite wheel comes off the ground. I have done several bag jobs so I know what a nice link setup looks like and how to install them. I'm not going on just word of mouth from some "Air Ride" rep.

Some like them some don't, we're all giving our opinions.

[loweredd]

I know you are sincere fiveeight. I cant say anything about Ektensives setup. SSC's is very different though. I havent had that problem with one wheel off the ground though. I can see how that would not be good.

[Izzy]

Originally posted by loweredd
I know you are sincere fiveeight. I cant say anything about Ektensives setup. SSC's is very different though. I havent had that problem with one wheel off the ground though. I can see how that would not be good.

That’s coo, whatever floats your boat is my motto.

I personally have good luck with 4 links and that’s what I’ll stick with.

IMO The best way to run a a 2 link is to use a 4 link bracket on the axle and use bushed ends on the 2 link and run a wishbone style upper link. It’s now basically a 3 link but you can modify most current 2 links to get there with little time/effort.

[ShamrockCustoms]

thought i would also note that the setup in that photo displays the bags mounted too far to the front, if you end up doing a 2 link Slammed87, definitely place the bags as close to the axle as you can go. the stress and leverage placed on those BAGS/air lines in the forward-mounted position will be extreme. (Like trying to do pushups with your arms raised above your head instead of directly underneath you.)

good luck!

[lotik]

i've got a scenario for you 2link fellas. open a door. pretend the axle is at the end with the hinges. now try to rotate the top or bottom side of the door and tell me what happens. well i know what happens, nothing.

on another note, a damn 2link is almost as much as a nice 4link these. why wouldn't they put such a simple cheap suspension on factory cars if they are flawless?

[loweredd]

Shamrock, my bars are 3/16th thick. They are not going to bend.

lotik......I honestly dont care about your "door" theory. It works. Live with it. I never said the 2 link was flawless. Pinion angle does change. Not enough though to pose a problem.

[BaggedC10]

Originally posted by loweredd


What else have you owned that featured air suspension?

This is a little off topic, but I remember when I first came back on the board after I sold my Sub and got this fullsize, I was asking about an air over leaf setup. You and another board member told me I was stupid because I was asking about an air over leaf setup. N2TRUX throws on an air over leaf, and to you that's the neatest thing since sliced bread. Why is that? I dont see posts telling him that is stupid and to run a 4 link, but here, Slammed '87 asks about a 2 link, and you jump all over him.

This is my first bagged vehicle but I'm no stranger to this scene.

Hold on a fu(kin' second. I and another board member recommended a 4-link and Ken had his AOL setup at the time. I have never commented on his suspension setup. IMO, AOL setups su(k though.

[lotik]

lotik......I honestly dont care about your "door" theory. It works. Live with it. I never said the 2 link was flawless. Pinion angle does change. Not enough though to pose a problem.

those few statements speak for your intelligence. just because something works doesn't mean it works right and will continue to work. i hope it does work, and your axle perch doesn't break and cause you to run someone like myself off the road.

[81chevystep]

i have a ladder bar and coil over set up on my truck and have had no problems with it. i drive it hard and fly around corners, it has really good trackion. it has been on there for about a year now and has about 3,000 miles on it with no problems

chris

[ShamrockCustoms]

loweredd:

Shamrock, my bars are 3/16th thick. They are not going to bend.

never said they would, brother!

[N2TRUX]

How the h3ll did I get in all this? I read this thread early on, and decided to stay out of it because I could see where it was headed. I DO have knowledge of the Ekstensive "Billy Bar" pictured, but I WILL stay out of this.

May I suggest that everyone take a deep breath, and slow down a bit. This is "supposed" to be fun and informative, not name calling and hair raising. Maybe everyone should re-read the topic, and try again.

Meanwhile, I'll leave y'all to go at it

[68LSS1]

Maybe everyone should re-read the topic, and try again.

I agree with what N2TRUX said. A person or two expressed their opinions on what a bad idea this was and that was good enough. I know a lot of you guys are only trying to help
but I think he's got enough "con" opinions, let the guys using it give him the "pro's"(and any "cons").
Slammed '87, I know what you're going through. I posted recently wanting info about anyone who has tried the new Hydratech systems (uses power steering pump for brake power assist) and I got the similar responses about why this isn't a good idea or they sucked on this vehicle but no one replied that had a aftermarket unit that they were running. A few responses were not even technically correct. But I think those that replied had good intentions. I'm going to go with it anyway .
And as far as all this 4 link stuff: that suspension was meant for a straight line. It may allow you to get your air bags in there but it's not for "handling." Yes, I know you can do things to make it street freindly but you still can't say it will out perform a trailing arm set up correctly. You 4 link guys jack your frame up on the side towards the back until one rear tire is completely off the ground and see how squarely the other rear is sitting on the ground. Here we go!