S10 or other frame "swaps", why do this? Pros-cons

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 918733

We should change the name of this thread to MARTINSR lol!

We are discussing it, I am putting my opinion in the discussion. I do see your point and have felt the same thing when I posted most every time like it's all about ME. But I just want to get the info out there for others thinking about this HUGE modification to their truck. The subject as been made so "matter a fact" like it HAS to be done or something, I see it on forums all over. I have seen people ask it about other cars too. On another forum I visit a newbe came on asking what frame to "swap" under is 36 Ford sedan! A 1936 Ford sedan he is looking to put some S10 frame or something under it! OMG, it is just crazy how far this has gone.

I see these "swaps" at the swap meets half done looking like crap and they have gave up on it. I also have seen a few that looked damn good and it was a good choice. One was a 40ish Chevy pickup with a Toyota frame under it, damn near looked like it was made for it.

Just trying to get info out there so people don't take is THE WAY to build one of these trucks.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Clay54

Brian, you ask how am I going to drive it? Well, when my truck is taged and certified safe by the state of Texas, I will drive it to Wal Mart for groceries, Lowes/Home Depot for a load of lumber, the doctors office etc. Take a 400 mile round trip to check on the farm in Lubbock. Go to Houston/San Antonio/Arlington and Huntsville to see the kids. And if the mood strikes me right, I might just drive it to San Francisco just to see if I can.

My '54 truck didn't come out of a barn find, I bought it in 1969 off a Chevy used car lot in Robstown, Texas. Gave $500.00 for it. It had a 1949 Cadillac engine, transmission, and rear end. AC, power brakes, power steering. windshield washers,

tank to hold vacuum to keep the wipers going during acceleration.

The transmission back then was a 4 speed and with reverse and park in the same position - all the way down. I drove that truck until 1979 when I had to put it on blocks because the power steering went out and I was broke and could not fix it.

Again, I wanna do it cause I can and I think this will be the easiest with the least amount of money to get back on the road before I get too old.

Clay

I forgot to comment on this. I had the same thing! I still love vacuum wipers. My Rambler has them and I love how they work.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Clay54

Brian, you ask how am I going to drive it? Well, when my truck is taged and certified safe by the state of Texas, I will drive it to Wal Mart for groceries, Lowes/Home Depot for a load of lumber, the doctors office etc. Take a 400 mile round trip to check on the farm in Lubbock. Go to Houston/San Antonio/Arlington and Huntsville to see the kids. And if the mood strikes me right, I might just drive it to San Francisco just to see if I can.

My '54 truck didn't come out of a barn find, I bought it in 1969 off a Chevy used car lot in Robstown, Texas. Gave $500.00 for it. It had a 1949 Cadillac engine, transmission, and rear end. AC, power brakes, power steering. windshield washers,

tank to hold vacuum to keep the wipers going during acceleration.

The transmission back then was a 4 speed and with reverse and park in the same position - all the way down. I drove that truck until 1979 when I had to put it on blocks because the power steering went out and I was broke and could not fix it.

Again, I wanna do it cause I can and I think this will be the easiest with the least amount of money to get back on the road before I get too old.

Clay

I forgot to comment on this. I had the same thing! I still love vacuum wipers. My Rambler has them and I love how they work.

Brian

[1project2many]

One was a 40ish Chevy pickup with a Toyota frame under it, damn near looked like it was made for it.

I've suggested using Toyota parts more than once. Toyota's engineers often used American vehicles and parts for inspiration in the early days.

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I forgot to comment on this. I had the same thing! I still love vacuum wipers. My Rambler has them and I love how they work.Brian

Unless you live in rainey area with long hill climbs, like Oregon where I grew up. Hated it when you were giving it all she had to get up a hill and had to let off so the wipers could do a sweep!

[safedrive654]

I have to tell you, this was a great thread. I don't get on this site very often because I find it difficult to navigate and find my latest question. But all in all you guys answered my age old question on putting a late model chassis under my 55-59 GMC pickup. I'm sticking with just upgrading the suspension. I guess what baffled me was that you never mentioned an 82-88 Ford Ranger as a donor instead of the S-10; given it's wheelbase is the same 114". But I'm sure you would run into the same cab mount chassis problems. Thanks for the information guys.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by OrrieG

Unless you live in rainey area with long hill climbs, like Oregon where I grew up. Hated it when you were giving it all she had to get up a hill and had to let off so the wipers could do a sweep!

A vacuum tank with a one way valve as many cars in the fifties and sixties had is all it takes to solve that. I had one in my truck out of a Buick and I just got one out of a 56 Plymouth for my Rambler. Of course with a very long climb like interstate 5 into Oregon, that's a long one I admit.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by safedrive654

I have to tell you, this was a great thread. I don't get on this site very often because I find it difficult to navigate and find my latest question. But all in all you guys answered my age old question on putting a late model chassis under my 55-59 GMC pickup. I'm sticking with just upgrading the suspension. I guess what baffled me was that you never mentioned an 82-88 Ford Ranger as a donor instead of the S-10; given it's wheelbase is the same 114". But I'm sure you would run into the same cab mount chassis problems. Thanks for the information guys.

I think you have made a good choice, as long as it matches your expectations. That is what this thread is all about. This is the thing on the wheelbase, that is the EASIEST thing to fix! It's one of the great myths about stuff like this, like an engine swap being about the motor mounts, CRAP, the motor mounts are the often the easiest part! Exhaust hitting the steering box, the oil pan hitting the axle, now THAT is a much bigger issue than those motor mounts! If you were go get a good frame from a late model truck that didn't have anything obstructing the cab, rad support and so on, one that the cab and front sheetmetal just sat there happy but the wheel base was a foot too long, THAT would be a much better frame than one with a perfect wheelbase but you had to cut the rad support and front bumper mounts all up like an S-10 frame.

No, it's MUCH easier in my opinion to modify the stock chassis, if you need to at all.

Brian

[roger55]

I was thinking only the AD guys did S10 swaps. I've never heard of an S10 swap on a TF.

[Bone$]

I wanted to budget build as much as I can and I have a buddy doing my fab work on my 54gmc and we originally looked at a mustang II kit and bags over 2k in parts. I found a 94 s10 complete less bed and motor and tranny for $250.
It seemed like s10 was a good idea but now my buddy is gonna cut the whole rear chassis and tube it the way he wants . He also wants to build his own frame to be one of a kind . I guess we will see that's why it's a project.

[Ratpin]

I agree that the OG frames, or modified OG demand more respect. I view many of the frame swaps, especially S-10 swaps as mutilated classics. It's kind of sad. Now if it's a full blown custom it's a little different.

I recently met a guy that had a sweet '47 Studebaker M5. I have always like those trucks, and it looked just how I had invisioned me building one some day. When I got up close and opened the door I saw it had been chopped up and set on an S10 frame. A little part of me died that day.....

[55dude]

that is pretty rambler and adding a safer brake system would be tops on my list as it serves to protect your investment and you! as for a frame swap subject its lots of work and i am personally done doing that. my take on S10 swap is go ahead but don't waste the money on one of the mounting kits because the guys who sell them don't tell customers they are not bolt on! so why not fab your own? as for resale who cares. i have put FORD clips in and even installed a MOPAR flathead 6 in one! help swap one on to a mid 80's TOYOTA pickup frame complete with 22R/5spd. used what was free or cheep to get trucks cruising and nobody was the wiser. the 56 panel in my avitar is getting JAGUAR front and rear updates! ever priced out redoing a stock chassis? That is serious money when you replace springs,rebuild rearend,front end,steering parts....$$$ anyone have hard numbers on rolling chassis restoration? 7K?

[MARTINSR]

$7k if you go with a blank check and buy everything new sure, but that is not needed. My biggest point is the simple fact that a frame swap is NOT easier as many people make it sound. Guys toss around he word "swap" like "swapping" rims and tires for goodness sake, it's a HUGE project that often ends up undone and at a swap meet with a cut up mess for sale.
So many newbes come to the forums asking "What is the best frame to swap?" I have heard the question even for Model A's and stuff like that! Asking if a late model Corvette frame is a good choice under a Model A! It's became so common to see people asking these questions it is just crazy. Often these guys don't have a clue as to how these old trucks drove with the stock suspension and brakes, not a clue yet they THINK they MUST have disc brakes and IFS and a new rear axle because the original is some how going to explode like road side bomb if they drive it!

That Rambler I drive every day, it has the most antiquated suspension it isn't funny! This is the most asinine stuff, I had to study the assembly manual every time I worked on it, still do! I changed the front shocks the other day and had to study the spare parts I have to see how the darn thing comes apart and I had done this the last time I pulled it apart! It is so odd you just can't believe it. There are no you bolts on the drive shaft U joints for instance. You have to unscrew a huge nut on the rear of the drive shaft that squeezes the driveshaft yoke onto the pinion shaft on the rear end like a friggin moly bolt or something! This is the front "trunnion" suspension.



The knuckle pivots inside the trunnion (that holds the coil spring) on roller bearings! It's sandwiched between two control arms.



There is another trunnion at the bottom sandwiched between two control arms as well.



How do I drive this thing??? How do I work on it? Where do I buy parts? I have a phone number on my cel phone that I can call and get any part I ever needed for it, and I learned about this odd front end from the assembly manual, and I maintain it so it doesn't fail as they have many times with the front wheel snapping off.

But I maintain it, and tested it and checked it all out to be sure it's good and safe. And it meets my expectations for this car that I drive every single day to work. I didn't need to swap a frame under it, or put rack and pinion steering or anything, it meets my expectations.

That is the subject of this thread, to educate those thinking about a frame swap, will what they have meet their expectations? Will some minor mods meet their expectations? Will they be selling it, will it still have a good value?

On my Rambler's brakes, sure that could be a good idea to upgrade, but if it's maintained it isn't a big deal. VERY seldom does something just FAIL, it gives you warning signs that with the average driver they will take care of it "later" and end up with a total failure. But when you take that stuff seriously and when you get a warning sign you act on it, it's not a big deal. Every car in these photos had a single reservoir brake system, what were the odds one in these photos would fail? It was VERY, VERY rare even when the highways were covered with millions of them!

Many people see my comments as ME TELLING SOMEONE HOW TO BUILD THEIR TRUCK, nope, I am simply asking them to look at WHY they are making a mod and if it is the right thing for them.

Brian

[55dude]

7K can happen if all is worn and one doesn't posses the skill set to repair worn areas or place to perform them. keep in mind east coast vehicle don't rust they rot! having been old mopar guy since the 70's ball and trunion setups were the norm until about 1960.

[MARTINSR]

I hear you, there are reasons why someone would change out frames, I understand that. I just wanted this thread to show BOTH sides so people can make up their minds with good info not urban myths.

Brian

[no1udknow]

I am looking at doing a frame swap. I bought a numbers matching 58 from a friend for 1000 clean title, it belonged to his uncle and has been sitting in his yard for about 8-10 years now. no motor and trans. but everything else is complete. On top of that, a guy at work just gave me an 85 1/2T long bed that actually runs, but does not pass smog and has been parked in his yard on a non op since 1992 and has about 65k miles on it.
Why I am going this route: I want a v8, 700r4, ifs, power steering, and disk power brakes. I was starting to build the costs of an ifs kit, power steering kit, power brakes, etc, and it was looking like about $10k worth of stuff. Right now I'm in to this truck for about 1200$ and I can do all the fabrication myself for mounting. I have built many custom bikes and other contraptions out of steel and I really enjoy it. The only thing I will probably pay for is a professional paint job. I like that it is easy to find parts for the new setup, and I like the street rod look.
But that is just my $.02. I am sure there are many classic truck purists that feel like it is insanity to ruin a stock frame, and that it is worth more stock. But then I see my buddy who bought his 1935 ford from an auto museum, trying to keep everything stock, and is having nothing but problems. Between the positive grounded 6v system, the generator, and the antiquated fuel system. he has worked on the truck more than he has driven it. I think frame swaps and upgrades are a matter of taste and prefference. And how I see it is, if these older systems were so great, why did they change them. we have made leaps and bounds in the way of engineering and if I had access to a newer truck than the one I was getting for free, I would jump on it. I want my wife to be able to drive this truck, or my son & daughter. But if my wife has to start lifting weights so she can do the elbow shuffle every time she is in a parking lot, she will never even think about driving it.......well maybe that's not such a bad thing I guess if I was weekend cruising or car showing, I would leave it stock. But I want to build something to drive whenever I get a hair up my @#$!

[whitedog76]

How about this

http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/vie...php?f=10&t=939

Chevy Trailblazer. You get a an engine that's close to 300 Hp without any modifications. You get 4 wheel disc brakes. You get a rear 4 link. You get power steering. Hmmm.... What's not to like?

This truck did over 250 Hp at the wheel on a chassis dyno. Do the math, that's over 300 at the flywheel.

http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/vie...php?f=10&t=939

http://s240.photobucket.com/user/nex...43517703897975

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by no1udknow

I am looking at doing a frame swap. I bought a numbers matching 58 from a friend for 1000 clean title, it belonged to his uncle and has been sitting in his yard for about 8-10 years now. no motor and trans. but everything else is complete. On top of that, a guy at work just gave me an 85 1/2T long bed that actually runs, but does not pass smog and has been parked in his yard on a non op since 1992 and has about 65k miles on it.
Why I am going this route: I want a v8, 700r4, ifs, power steering, and disk power brakes. I was starting to build the costs of an ifs kit, power steering kit, power brakes, etc, and it was looking like about $10k worth of stuff. Right now I'm in to this truck for about 1200$ and I can do all the fabrication myself for mounting. I have built many custom bikes and other contraptions out of steel and I really enjoy it. The only thing I will probably pay for is a professional paint job. I like that it is easy to find parts for the new setup, and I like the street rod look.
But that is just my $.02. I am sure there are many classic truck purists that feel like it is insanity to ruin a stock frame, and that it is worth more stock. But then I see my buddy who bought his 1935 ford from an auto museum, trying to keep everything stock, and is having nothing but problems. Between the positive grounded 6v system, the generator, and the antiquated fuel system. he has worked on the truck more than he has driven it. I think frame swaps and upgrades are a matter of taste and prefference. And how I see it is, if these older systems were so great, why did they change them. we have made leaps and bounds in the way of engineering and if I had access to a newer truck than the one I was getting for free, I would jump on it. I want my wife to be able to drive this truck, or my son & daughter. But if my wife has to start lifting weights so she can do the elbow shuffle every time she is in a parking lot, she will never even think about driving it.......well maybe that's not such a bad thing I guess if I was weekend cruising or car showing, I would leave it stock. But I want to build something to drive whenever I get a hair up my @#$!

Ok, you want a V8 and power steering and all that jazz, you can get that EASY using tried and true methods of simple swapping wrecking yard parts! People did it for years, you go to the wrecking yard and you get what you want and install it in your truck. There simply is no reason to change the frame out that requires MUCH more modifications than modifying the stock frame.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

How about this

http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/vie...php?f=10&t=939

Chevy Trailblazer. You get a an engine that's close to 300 Hp without any modifications. You get 4 wheel disc brakes. You get a rear 4 link. You get power steering. Hmmm.... What's not to like?

This truck did over 250 Hp at the wheel on a chassis dyno. Do the math, that's over 300 at the flywheel.

http://www.vortec4200.com/forum1/vie...php?f=10&t=939

http://s240.photobucket.com/user/nex...43517703897975

That is all great, but read my previous post! Listen, we all have different expectations, and skills. Don't sell youself short on the mad skills you have swapping that frame over, it is NOT easy!

Again, all I want is a discussion to fill people in with the pie in the sky dreams of "swapping" a frame. When swapping a frame saves you NOTHING, not money, not time, NOTHING. If that is what you want, by all means go for it, but it is NOT needed to build a modern drive train truck that you can hop on the freeway and drive 500 miles at 75 MPH, it simply is not needed.

Brian

[whitedog76]

Geesh! A little sensitive there Marty!

The whole point of my post was to advocate an alternative to the vanilla S10 frame swap.

I've never been an advocate of the S10 swap myself. It seems a little pointless to me going to a chassis with a weaker frame, weaker rearend, etc...

What do most guys do to the S10 Chassis when they get it? They start hacking it up. They hack on it to put a bigger motor. They hack on it to install a rear 4 link. They hack on it to put air bags up front. Need I go on?

Anyhow, the Trailblazer/Envoy Chassis has all the goodies to begin with. Will it take work to modify it? Yes? Would it be worth it in the end? Depends on your personal feelings. My own feelings are that I kinda like it.

Sure, an oem chassis will work just fine too. Heck, they've done fine all these years.

This is a hobby, EVERYONE has their own opinion. No ONE is more valuable than the other. Each person has their own wants, needs, and desires. If everyone did the same thing, it would be kind of boring out there. The great thing about the car hobby is that ANYONE can do what THEY want, regardless of money, time or whatever.

Chris

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

Geesh! A little sensitive there Marty!

The whole point of my post was to advocate an alternative to the vanilla S10 frame swap.

I've never been an advocate of the S10 swap myself. It seems a little pointless to me going to a chassis with a weaker frame, weaker rearend, etc...

What do most guys do to the S10 Chassis when they get it? They start hacking it up. They hack on it to put a bigger motor. They hack on it to install a rear 4 link. They hack on it to put air bags up front. Need I go on?

Anyhow, the Trailblazer/Envoy Chassis has all the goodies to begin with. Will it take work to modify it? Yes? Would it be worth it in the end? Depends on your personal feelings. My own feelings are that I kinda like it.

Sure, an oem chassis will work just fine too. Heck, they've done fine all these years.

This is a hobby, EVERYONE has their own opinion. No ONE is more valuable than the other. Each person has their own wants, needs, and desires. If everyone did the same thing, it would be kind of boring out there. The great thing about the car hobby is that ANYONE can do what THEY want, regardless of money, time or whatever.

Chris

You are right Chris, absolutely right. That is the point of this thread, to be sure each builder understands what he wants and goes for it.

Brian

[meter swinger]

Originally Posted by 55dude

that is pretty rambler and adding a safer brake system would be tops on my list as it serves to protect your investment and you! as for a frame swap subject its lots of work and i am personally done doing that. my take on S10 swap is go ahead but don't waste the money on one of the mounting kits because the guys who sell them don't tell customers they are not bolt on! so why not fab your own? as for resale who cares. i have put FORD clips in and even installed a MOPAR flathead 6 in one! help swap one on to a mid 80's TOYOTA pickup frame complete with 22R/5spd. used what was free or cheep to get trucks cruising and nobody was the wiser. the 56 panel in my avitar is getting JAGUAR front and rear updates! ever priced out redoing a stock chassis? That is serious money when you replace springs,rebuild rearend,front end,steering parts....$$$ anyone have hard numbers on rolling chassis restoration? 7K?

Hey 55dude, do you have the jag front end installed yet? I was wondering if you are notching the top of the frame to clear the upper rear control arm bushing or the bottom to raise the entire jag member?

[made2drag]

This is a great thread....I'm currently working on a 56 that came with no motor/trans. the stock frame is straight and it is a short wheel base but I've looked at replacing stuff and found that even if i replaced stuff and added a dropped axle i still would not be able to bag the front....along comes a 76 c10 longbed with a motor and a good (bagable) suspension. In my case, i believe i will be way further ahead. To me, due to the starting point, its not doing a frame swap, its doing a cab swap since the bed i have fits 55-87 frames and i want to cut the frame for a step notch in the rear and and ive already shortened one frame and it isnt hard for me to do. We will see.... cool thing about this forum is there is a ton of info here to let you know ahead of time what road blocks people ran into and what to expect like making front raised front cab mounts and wheelbase issues and track width issues....all easily dealt with in my opinion.

What are my expectations? I will be lower with this setup, brakes should be better, motor will already be installed, should ride better, once shortened and the fabrication is done i will basically have a shortbed c10 with a 56 cab and front end on it.

I will keep the stock frame and stock parts in case whoever gets it next would rather have that stuff to restore it.

Its a long term project working a little at a time and i like facing obstacles and modifing trucks to mold them into the vision i set out to acheive, although not show quailty still "good enough"

Do i need it like this? No. Do i want it like this? Yes. If it doesnt work out, the 56 wasnt crushed because "it was too far gone"....someone will put it back on the road if i dont....that's all the matters to me...

[MARTINSR]

You have a good attitude! Nice to hear your thoughts.

Brian

[Bone$]

I will agree that most unfinished project trucks in my area are ones that guys started s10 swap/hack and get tired of it and then try and sell it in pieces and unfinished.
With the old car,truck,motorcycle craze going thanks to "Fast and Loud " and other shows there is allot of guys that think because they have a LOWES 250 piece tool set they can rebuild and modify a car or truck in one week.