47-55.1 What's going wrong inside my 350?

[Jason 56]

What are your plans for your truck? Daily driver? If so I would replace the cam with something more mild. That cam has a 108 degree lobe separation which means it isn’t going to idle very well n if you have power brakes they won’t work very well. That cam won’t produce much vacuum. It isn’t much harder to do the cam if you already have the gear set off!

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by Jason 56

What are your plans for your truck? Daily driver? If so I would replace the cam with something more mild. That cam has a 108 degree lobe separation which means it isn’t going to idle very well n if you have power brakes they won’t work very well. That cam won’t produce much vacuum. It isn’t much harder to do the cam if you already have the gear set off!

Plans are daily driver and drive it as much as I can

Well if I already have everything ripped apart i should maybe do that at the same time if you say i'll have low vacuum. I do have power brakes with an under floor brake booster. I finished running all my brake lines and stuff ages ago but havent been able to test them and pedal travel under running conditions with full vacuum.

Is there a better cam that you could recommend? Since the truck isnt running that great at this time I haven't even tested the brakes because that is the last thing on my mind to getting the motor running correctly.

As previously mentioned this project was a previous owner build which I'm trying to keep on a budget. Well I thought it was on budget lol.

[Jason 56]

You don’t have to remove or loosen the oil pan if you pull the alignment pins in the timing cover. I’d just use a performance set by melling... they’re made in the US! Rock auto has them for about $30. Make sure to put a small dab of permatex in the corner where the oil pan, block n timing cover come together.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by Jason 56

Just get a new timing chain set as you mentioned. They’re inexpensive. It’s really easy to change and the current setup isn’t what you want. Do like DSRaven said and pull the alignment pins in the cover so you don’t have to remove the pan. Align the timing marks on the gears before you remove them and replace. Make sure to put lock tight blue on the 3 cam bolt. You don’t want those coming loose.

Is there any brand of timing chain set someone might recommend? Edelbrock? Comp cams? Napa?

Where are the alignment pins? I know there are alignment pins to line up the timing cover but what about the oil pan? I don't really want to replace the pan gasket if I don't have to.

[mongocanfly]

ive heard a lot of the Pete Jackson geardrives...they don't really sound like in your trucks video... I like the way they sound on a dragcar...not something id want on the street
swap cam and to a timing chain..youll be much happier

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

ive heard a lot of the Pete Jackson geardrives...they don't really sound like that video... I like the way they sound on a dragcar...not something id wanta on the street
swap cam and to a timing chain..youll be much happier

Any cam recommendations? I'm totally oblivious to this engine stuff so any help would be much appreciated.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

Any cam recommendations? I'm totally oblivious to this engine stuff so any help would be much appreciated.

If you're going flat tappet, the Comp Cams XE268H-10 isn't a bad choice for reasonable sound and street performance with a stock torque converter. If you can spend the extra bucks, go with a roller. Somebody else can chime in with a specific recommendation.

[burnin oil]

Surprised no one mentioned this. Make sure that the valves arnt set to tight. It is really easy to do on a hyd cam. End result is a valve that doesn’t seat completely, if at all, and vacuum issues. I almost bet that one or two are tight and that is why you think the carb and dizzy need tuned more.

For the knowledgeable gear drive guys. Isn’t there a possibility of block interference with gear drive on some blocks? I could of swore I read that somewhere. I always just ran double rollers and never gave it much thought.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Surprised no one mentioned this. Make sure that the valves arnt set to tight. It is really easy to do on a hyd cam. End result is a valve that doesn’t seat completely, if at all, and vacuum issues. I almost bet that one or two are tight and that is why you think the carb and dizzy need tuned more.

For the knowledgeable gear drive guys. Isn’t there a possibility of block interference with gear drive on some blocks? I could of swore I read that somewhere. I always just ran double rollers and never gave it much thought.

Both of these are good points. I'm remembering the way the engine ran in the one video, and that "chugging" sure could be caused by tight valves.

[mongocanfly]

Go with a cam kit...(new cam and lifters)....also if there has been metal 2 metal contact ,flush the oil pan good...it may have metal shavings in there...

[whitedog76]

If you do change out your cam, ALWAYS go with new lifters. You'll find a ton of info out there on the matter. Use break in lube and a good oil. Since the oil companies re-formulated oil for better mileage, it's devastated alot of engine with flat tappet cams. You can find the high zinc oil just about anywhere now. If you're on a budget, Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO, and other oil made for diesel trucks, are good substitutes. Again, there's a ton of info out there on oil now.

[burnin oil]

He is talking about a Melling timing chain. For this mild of a cam I would throw any old double roller chain in there. Even a quality factory set would work. The merits of each have been argued since the birth of the SBC in 1955. Factory chains wear faster and get more slop but transmit less vibration to the valve train, gear drives basically never wear and adjust cam timing, and rollers are the compromise that most performance guys settle on. Personally I run the double rollers, even on 8k RPM motors.
If you look behind the balancer you can see the pins that the guys are talking about. Look at approximatly 3 and 9 oclock positions from the crank between the timing chain cover bolts. They are around an 1/8". Personally I never had good luck pulling the timing chain cover without dropping the pan. Usually the oil pans front seal would stay with the cover and tear the pan rail gasket. Good luck.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

He is talking about a Melling timing chain. For this mild of a cam I would throw any old double roller chain in there. Even a quality factory set would work. The merits of each have been argued since the birth of the SBC in 1955. Factory chains wear faster and get more slop but transmit less vibration to the valve train, gear drives basically never wear and adjust cam timing, and rollers are the compromise that most performance guys settle on. Personally I run the double rollers, even on 8k RPM motors.
If you look behind the balancer you can see the pins that the guys are talking about. Look at approximatly 3 and 9 oclock positions from the crank between the timing chain cover bolts. They are around an 1/8". Personally I never had good luck pulling the timing chain cover without dropping the pan. Usually the oil pans front seal would stay with the cover and tear the pan rail gasket. Good luck.

I will be putting in a double roller. Just need to find the right one. I will be talking to my mechanic in the morning.

Since I dont know much about cams your saying that the 'Edelbrock Part # 5002 Torker-Plus Camshaft' is mild? Other forum members said in other posts said I would be on the edge of having not enough vacuum to run my power breaks and I should swap it and the lifters.

Yes I seen in some youtube videos about the pins but I didnt know they were removable. To be on the safe side I'll pickup a new oil pan gasket as well.

[burnin oil]

Cam grind wise I would have to look up the exact specs on it. From memory it has a 2500-6000 RPM power band. I can tell you that it is an older grind and more strip than street/strip but is still streetable. I run alot more cam than you have in my 72 K20 and can still use the factory power brakes. My circle track cam makes around 7" of vacuum at idle and will still work with the large booster in the truck. I run a manual with 4.10 gears and it is right at the border line. That said I am not an expert on your braking system nor do I know if you are running an under hood or under floor setup. The dual diaphram under floor setup would probably work. If you have power steering a hydroboost conversion would negate any vacuum issues period.

I did not see what rear gear you are running in the truck. Personally I would leave the cam and see how it does as long as you have a 3.73 or lower axle gearing. You have a trans with a decent first gear and alot of convertor. You can afford to loose a little bit of bottom end for a stronger mid range. In all honesty people on here would need to know alot more engine specs to truely recommend a cam. Compression and heads at the least. I could spec a cam about the size people have recommended (a really good one) that would not be able to be run with factory heads. So much lift that it would pull the studs out of the valvetrain. Odds are the cam that was mentioned would be perfect as long as the compression is not through the roof on this motor to start with.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by burnin oil

Cam grind wise I would have to look up the exact specs on it. From memory it has a 2500-6000 RPM power band. I can tell you that it is an older grind and more strip than street/strip but is still streetable. I run alot more cam than you have in my 72 K20 and can still use the factory power brakes. My circle track cam makes around 7" of vacuum at idle and will still work with the large booster in the truck. I run a manual with 4.10 gears and it is right at the border line. That said I am not an expert on your braking system nor do I know if you are running an under hood or under floor setup. The dual diaphram under floor setup would probably work. If you have power steering a hydroboost conversion would negate any vacuum issues period.

I did not see what rear gear you are running in the truck. Personally I would leave the cam and see how it does as long as you have a 3.73 or lower axle gearing. You have a trans with a decent first gear and alot of convertor. You can afford to loose a little bit of bottom end for a stronger mid range. In all honesty people on here would need to know alot more engine specs to truely recommend a cam. Compression and heads at the least. I could spec a cam about the size people have recommended (a really good one) that would not be able to be run with factory heads. So much lift that it would pull the studs out of the valvetrain. Odds are the cam that was mentioned would be perfect as long as the compression is not through the roof on this motor to start with.

I'm not completely sure what the gearing in the rear diff is. I believe its a stock 1980 10 bolt pontiac/formula one/trans Am posi rear diff with disc brakes. Previous owner never said anything about swapping out the gears on it. So I think they might be 3.11 by the casting numbers on the diff. I looked it up a long long time ago so I'm not clear on that right now.

I do have an under floor brake booster w/manual steering in the truck. I'm going to run the cam for now and test vacuum before swapping the cam gears and go from there.

[NeoJuice]

Its a very good video but how much 'pre-load' should you put on the lifters? He uses 3/4 turn past zero lash in the video.

I'm putting together a game plan in my head on how I'm going to tackle replacing the timing chain job. Here are my thoughts.

1. Pull all accessories off/out (Rad, water pump, alternator, plugs)

2. Rotate motor to TDC on piston #1

3. Remove lower pulley & harmonic balancer

4. Remove timing chain cover and inspect chain gears/block/cover for any damage and make sure the timing marks line up on the gears

5. Remove gears and use a puller to remove botton gear.

6. Install new Edelbrock #7800 true roller timing chain set. Is a thrust bearing needed or required? any videos I've seen on youtube dont show needing one but they do sell them.

https://www.edelbrock.com/performer-...5-7l--v8-82965

7. Test timing chain cover fitment for any possible contact

8. Remove valve covers and check zero lash on lifters or should I loosen the rocker arms then then set zero lash then set pre-load? Minimum two revolutions engine rotation.

9. If any damage was found in #4 drain oil and remove oilpan and install new gasket. This will also fix the oil pan sweat on the back of the pan.

10.Install new oil pan gasket and timing chain gasket/seal and torque to spec with permatex gasket maker.

11.Install new valve cover gaskets and re-install valve covers

12.Install Harmonic Balancer with press on tool and install lower pulley

13.Install water pump with new gaskets

14.Re-install all accessories (Rad, alternator, plugs)

15.Install new fluids (oil,coolant)

16.Double check, tripple check everything

17.Prepare for startup.

18.Set engine timing and carb.

[dsraven]

when doing the timing cover gasket/seal you will likely have some problems getting the cover back on unless you pull the pan. this is because the rubber end seal on the cover sorta slips into a groove and usually the cover is on the front of the engine before the pan goes on so the oil pan rail gaskets slip under the ends of the front and rear rubber ends. it can be done but takes a bit of time and patience. use permatex "the right stuff" gasket goop, liker silicone only dries faster, so you don't get any leaks. slip the cover down onto the front of the pan and use some small tapered punches, that fit the hole size of the timing cover alignment dowel holes drilled in the block, through the timing cover holes as alignment tools. install a couple of bolts in the cover and then check to see if the rubber end seal is in place correctly before proceding to finish the job.
easiest and less likely to leak if the pan is off or at least let down a bit (then you will run the chance of a leak at the rear because the sealer has let go from the new angle).
a small bit of sealer at each corner where the rubber meets the rail gasket is preferable to a large bead that goops up the whole area.
do it right the first time and just pull the pan. you could then check the bearing clearances, material in the bottom of the pan, oil pump pick up tube placement etc if you want to.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by dsraven

when doing the timing cover gasket/seal you will likely have some problems getting the cover back on unless you pull the pan. this is because the rubber end seal on the cover sorta slips into a groove and usually the cover is on the front of the engine before the pan goes on so the oil pan rail gaskets slip under the ends of the front and rear rubber ends. it can be done but takes a bit of time and patience. use permatex "the right stuff" gasket goop, liker silicone only dries faster, so you don't get any leaks. slip the cover down onto the front of the pan and use some small tapered punches, that fit the hole size of the timing cover alignment dowel holes drilled in the block, through the timing cover holes as alignment tools. install a couple of bolts in the cover and then check to see if the rubber end seal is in place correctly before proceding to finish the job.
easiest and less likely to leak if the pan is off or at least let down a bit (then you will run the chance of a leak at the rear because the sealer has let go from the new angle).
a small bit of sealer at each corner where the rubber meets the rail gasket is preferable to a large bead that goops up the whole area.
do it right the first time and just pull the pan. you could then check the bearing clearances, material in the bottom of the pan, oil pump pick up tube placement etc if you want to.

X2 on removing the pan. It's the right way to do this, and the only way to get the front corners clean so the gasket sealer will have a fighting chance. I'd be checking torque on all rod & crank bolts, and the oil pump bolt while in there, just to judge the skill of the assembler. Then I'd take a look at every half bearing in every cap (rod and crank), then re-torque. It's an extra hour, but that's an insurance policy I'd be buying.

[dsraven]

use some plstigage to check the bearing clearance, its easy to do and cheap insurance for peace of mind. napa sells it, you would likely want the green stuff. take a bearing cap off, lay a bead of the string in there just off the centerline if the crank and full width, then install the cap and torque it, then remove the cap and check how much the string flattened by comparing against the graduations on the wrapper. just don't turn the crank with the string in there or you will skew the results. when done remove the flattened string with a fingernail or whatever and lube the brg, install the cap and torque it for final time. use blue loctite on the rod bolts. thats assuming the clearances are good.

https://www.plastigaugeusa.com/

https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/SEPSPR1

https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&key...sl_94dkrsml2_b

oil pan install sbc, use "the right stuff" instead of the stuff he uses. also not a real proponent of the complete bead from end to end. just the front and rear. if you use the felpro permadry gaskets they are rubber instead of cork so they seal better/longer and don't split if overtorqued and don't rely on the cork absorbing some oil and expanding in order to seal well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUo-Ts4Acw


valve adjustment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_IOYwwKjTE

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

X2 on removing the pan. It's the right way to do this, and the only way to get the front corners clean so the gasket sealer will have a fighting chance. I'd be checking torque on all rod & crank bolts, and the oil pump bolt while in there, just to judge the skill of the assembler. Then I'd take a look at every half bearing in every cap (rod and crank), then re-torque. It's an extra hour, but that's an insurance policy I'd be buying.

Once I drop the pan I will be taking a full inspection of everything and re-checking torque specs.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by dsraven

when doing the timing cover gasket/seal you will likely have some problems getting the cover back on unless you pull the pan. this is because the rubber end seal on the cover sorta slips into a groove and usually the cover is on the front of the engine before the pan goes on so the oil pan rail gaskets slip under the ends of the front and rear rubber ends. it can be done but takes a bit of time and patience. use permatex "the right stuff" gasket goop, liker silicone only dries faster, so you don't get any leaks. slip the cover down onto the front of the pan and use some small tapered punches, that fit the hole size of the timing cover alignment dowel holes drilled in the block, through the timing cover holes as alignment tools. install a couple of bolts in the cover and then check to see if the rubber end seal is in place correctly before proceding to finish the job.
easiest and less likely to leak if the pan is off or at least let down a bit (then you will run the chance of a leak at the rear because the sealer has let go from the new angle).
a small bit of sealer at each corner where the rubber meets the rail gasket is preferable to a large bead that goops up the whole area.
do it right the first time and just pull the pan. you could then check the bearing clearances, material in the bottom of the pan, oil pump pick up tube placement etc if you want to.

Thanks for the tips DsRaven.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by NeoJuice

Its a very good video but how much 'pre-load' should you put on the lifters? He uses 3/4 turn past zero lash in the video.

I'm putting together a game plan in my head on how I'm going to tackle replacing the timing chain job. Here are my thoughts.

1. Pull all accessories off/out (Rad, water pump, alternator, plugs)

2. Rotate motor to TDC on piston #1

3. Remove lower pulley & harmonic balancer

4. Remove timing chain cover and inspect chain gears/block/cover for any damage and make sure the timing marks line up on the gears

5. Remove gears and use a puller to remove botton gear.

6. Install new Edelbrock #7800 true roller timing chain set. Is a thrust bearing needed or required? any videos I've seen on youtube dont show needing one but they do sell them.

https://www.edelbrock.com/performer-...5-7l--v8-82965

7. Test timing chain cover fitment for any possible contact

8. Remove valve covers and check zero lash on lifters or should I loosen the rocker arms then then set zero lash then set pre-load? Minimum two revolutions engine rotation.

9. If any damage was found in #4 drain oil and remove oilpan and install new gasket. This will also fix the oil pan sweat on the back of the pan.

10.Install new oil pan gasket and timing chain gasket/seal and torque to spec with permatex gasket maker.

11.Install new valve cover gaskets and re-install valve covers

12.Install Harmonic Balancer with press on tool and install lower pulley

13.Install water pump with new gaskets

14.Re-install all accessories (Rad, alternator, plugs)

15.Install new fluids (oil,coolant)

16.Double check, tripple check everything

17.Prepare for startup.

18.Set engine timing and carb.

1. OK.

2. OK.

3. OK.

3a. Pull the pan. (See my and dsraven's most recent post.)

4. OK. (There won't be a chain if it's a gear drive.)

5. OK.

6. OK. No thrust bearing needed.

7. OK. It'll be OK unless the cover is stove in, but knock yourself out.

8. Check the lash first to gauge the skill of the previous assembler, then set the lash exactly as shown in the video you posted earlier.

9. Oil pan was pulled in 3a.

9a. Check torque of all rod nuts, crank bolts and oil pump. Inspect the coupler between the oil pump and oil pump drive shaft. Do a visual inspection on the camshaft lobes, piston skirts and lower cylinder walls. Check the pan for anything hitting it. If a stroker crank is installed, check the block for anything hitting it.

9b. Check bearing clearances using plastigage (See dsraven's post, above.) Check the condition of the half bearings in every rod cap and crank cap. (Other half of the bearing will be OK if the lower bearing half is OK.) Take a good look at the rear main seal, but don't remove unless damaged. If it's all good, re-torque all caps.

10. Install a new timing cover crank seal using a high-quality RTV sealant like the old Permatex Form-a-Gasket blue or black goop on both sides of the gasket. (I haven't kept up with the marketing idiots that apparently have changed the name from "gasket sealer" to "gasket maker".) Smear the installed seal and crank nose with a light coating of oil or grease.

10a. Install timing chain cover and gasket using a THIN coat of "blue goop".

10b. Install the two oil pan side gaskets using a hi-tack spray adhesive on the block side of the gasket and a THIN coat of "blue goop" on the pan side. Put a SMALL dab of blue goop in the corners, then install the end rubber gaskets, then put a SMALL dab of "blue goop" in the corners again. (If you use blue goop on both sides of the side gaskets they will probably spurt out when you install the pan. If you use gobs of "blue goop" anywhere it will find its way to the oil pump sump and elsewhere, causing restricted oil flow and general mayhem.)

*** OR DO WHAT DSRAVEN SAID ABOVE FOR GASKET TREATMENT. ***

10c. Install the pan.

11-18. OK.

[NeoJuice]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

1. OK.

2. OK.

3. OK.

3a. Pull the pan. (See my and dsraven's most recent post.)

4. OK. (There won't be a chain if it's a gear drive.)

5. OK.

6. OK. No thrust bearing needed.

7. OK. It'll be OK unless the cover is stove in, but knock yourself out.

8. Check the lash first to gauge the skill of the previous assembler, then set the lash exactly as shown in the video you posted earlier.

9. Oil pan was pulled in 3a.

9a. Check torque of all rod nuts, crank bolts and oil pump. Inspect the coupler between the oil pump and oil pump drive shaft. Do a visual inspection on the camshaft lobes, piston skirts and lower cylinder walls. Check the pan for anything hitting it. If a stroker crank is installed, check the block for anything hitting it.

9b. Check bearing clearances using plastigage (See dsraven's post, above.) Check the condition of the half bearings in every rod cap and crank cap. (Other half of the bearing will be OK if the lower bearing half is OK.) Take a good look at the rear main seal, but don't remove unless damaged. If it's all good, re-torque all caps.

10. Install a new timing cover crank seal using a high-quality RTV sealant like the old Permatex Form-a-Gasket blue or black goop on both sides of the gasket. (I haven't kept up with the marketing idiots that apparently have changed the name from "gasket sealer" to "gasket maker".) Smear the installed seal and crank nose with a light coating of oil or grease.

10a. Install timing chain cover and gasket using a THIN coat of "blue goop".

10b. Install the two oil pan side gaskets using a hi-tack spray adhesive on the block side of the gasket and a THIN coat of "blue goop" on the pan side. Put a SMALL dab of blue goop in the corners, then install the end rubber gaskets, then put a SMALL dab of "blue goop" in the corners again. (If you use blue goop on both sides of the side gaskets they will probably spurt out when you install the pan. If you use gobs of "blue goop" anywhere it will find its way to the oil pump sump and elsewhere, causing restricted oil flow and general mayhem.)

*** OR DO WHAT DSRAVEN SAID ABOVE FOR GASKET TREATMENT. ***

10c. Install the pan.

11-18. OK.

Bob,

Your awesome. Thank you. I'll keep everyone updated on the status of the repair.

[NeoJuice]

OK a little update on the truck after it was finally warm enough to work out in the garage from this damm polar vortex the past couple weeks.

Picked up the needed accessories for the truck a couple weeks ago. New gaskets, filter, timing chain and ready to start the tear down. (not all items pictured)

Got the valve covers off, plugs removed, fluids drained, rad removed and started on removal of the balancer today. I turned the engine over to TDC on #1 then started with the removal of the balancer with my big three jaw puller. I put a socket in the crank hole b/c I didn't want the shaft to wreck the threads of the crank and started wrenching on it.

I dont know what I was thinking(as you can see in the picture) but initially I thought that the balancer was all one piece so I put the jaws on the outside of the balancer. This apparently was a big mistake because once I started to turn the threaded rod, the outer damper ring (1" plus thickiness) started to come off the middle star of the balancer. I stopped once I started to see what was going on. So I flipped around the puller arms and wedged them into the star of the balancer and it came right off with ease as I should have done in the first place.

Now I have a dampener with the outer ring slightly moved off the middle star. So I put it in my vice and squeezed it back into place. Now I know this is not the right solution but I think that I will need a new balancer and the rubber gasket in between the two pieces is now kind of f*cked up from squeezing it in my vice and from it being separated. Maybe my feet were to cold standing on the cold garage floor for to long but I kind of feel like an idiot. It's been so cold here and I finally get a break in this damn cold weather and I make a stupid mistake. I hope to get the timing chain cover off tomorrow and the pan dropped and get these timing gears out.

Maybe some other members can chime in on if I should replace the balancer or just re-install it. Squeezing the balancer back together seems to have fixed things but ultimately I dont think this is the proper fix to the problem.

Thank you everyone for your input and time.

[NeoJuice]

one more picture