Make it handle

[derrickmanx1]

I got the normal 2.5 cpp drop spindles I think 1.5" wider. I just want to run 18x9.5 w/5.25 bs on all four.

[robnolimit]

OK, this is probably out there some where. Is there a chart of wheel size and back space for these trucks? I have some info on our suspension set ups, but it would be good to have a chart we all could use. If not, start posting up what your running and I'll sort it out.

[jimmydean]

Rob, I am fighting with the wheel options myself. I am running a 9C1 rear that measures about 62" wide. The wheels I want to run are 18x7.5 with +51mm offset.

So for my truck:
62" wide axle + 2" of wheel + 1" of tire (max) per side would be a 68" rear end that looks like it will tuck without cutting the fenders at 72" of space.

[jjzepplin]

OK. So I switched the upper control arms and did the lower control arm move it forward thing about 3/4" . So far so good but the upper ball joint seems to be close to binding. Is this just because the body is not on the frame yet? 73 heavy duty front end. Should I put more spacers on the rear upper control arm until I can get it aligned?

[C0UCH]

I'll be tearing apart my truck next week, finally. I have a 67 shortbed, but it looks to be built on a newer chassis. Has discs up front, power steering (frame is formed for the PS which is why I'm thinking it isn't a 67 chassis), 5 lugs front and rear. Doesn't really look to be a major parts swap, more of a front end and cab swap if anything, if any of this makes a difference for suspension/wheels.



Anyways, I'm looking to install the Hotchkis TVS and bigger brakes (haven't decided which yet but I'll be going disc front and rear) and run it on a set of Bassett D-Hole wheels. For the wheels/tires, unless you guys advise against for any reason, I'd like to keep all four the same and go 15x10 (unless it won't clear) with as much rubber stuffed in there as possible.

Given that info, I now need to calculate the ever troublesome backspacing. With that wide of a wheel/tire and that suspension I'm assuming I may run into some rubbing issues if the backspacing isn't dead on. I can pull the wheels off and measure the rearend width, but the Hotchkis widens the front by 1.8" What would be the most efficient way of figuring all this out? Backspacing, making sure I have enough clearance/etc. I'll need to order the wheels since I can't find them locally, so I'd rather not order and find out they don't fit and start over.



For the front spindles, will the TVS 4/6" drop sit the truck level or will it need the 2" drop spindles to drop the front end level with the rear? I want it as low as possible but again, don't want to run into rubbing issues with the tires and I want to keep it level.

Tires, this may sound like a silly question but Goodyear Eagle G-23 (or similar) tires. Will a tire like this drive well on the street? As terrible as it sounds, the massive yellow Goodyear Eagle logos are primarily what I'm after to be completely honest.
http://www.racegoodyear.com/tires/short_track.html


Long list of questions and a bit scattered, I know, but any advice/help would be greatly appreciated, and will help narrow things down. I drive this truck daily and often push it fairly hard. Figure with the upgraded suspension/brakes/wheels/tires I'll be driving the snot out of her!

[skorpioskorpio]

Don't know about those specifically but racing tires tend to have a life expectancy on the street of not dramatically more than they do on the track, and most track tires have a life expectance on the track of a couple hours or a couple hundred miles.

[C0UCH]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

Don't know about those specifically but racing tires tend to have a life expectancy on the street of not dramatically more than they do on the track, and most track tires have a life expectance on the track of a couple hours or a couple hundred miles.

Thats what I figured. Considering I'll be painting the truck a creamy high gloss tan, the yellow may not work well anyways. Just been meaning to ask about them for a while. Figured I'd get it out of the way with the rest of the questions.

Thanks!

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by C0UCH

Thats what I figured. Considering I'll be painting the truck a creamy high gloss tan, the yellow may not work well anyways. Just been meaning to ask about them for a while. Figured I'd get it out of the way with the rest of the questions.

Thanks!

Don't race tires need heat in them to make them stick? That reason alone would probably make them a bad idea on the street. 15" wheels will limit the brake size alot too. If you want wheels that are similar to the ones you posted, Cragar soft 8's are available in 17's which would give you more brake options. Leave the cap off and paint a pinstripe around the edge and they would look very close.

[bdiamond]

Originally Posted by C0UCH

but the Hotchkis widens the front by 1.8"

I was under the impression that the Hotchkis stuff extended the wheelbase 1.8" .

[C0UCH]

Originally Posted by bdiamond

I was under the impression that the Hotchkis stuff extended the wheelbase 1.8" .

I must have read it incorrectly or there was incorrect info somewhere. Just checked the Hotchkis site and its the wheelbase. My mistake. Thanks for pointing that out!
Posted via Mobile Device

[bo-w]

so I am in the midst of a front disk swap on my 66, and founf that the po heated the spring un-evenly so its rolled over in a spot, leaving me to buy new springs front and rear, im going with 2.5" drop spindles and cross member from an 85 im thinking 2" drop springs(front)4-5"drop rear not trying to notch it though , however im questioning weather to go with an off the shelf (cpp, etc) spring or if there is maybe a a decent progressive rate or stiffer/softer spring package .Any input would be great, truck is a 66 short fleet with a small block and will get an 85 stock front sway bar may be some stock rear if i can fit one without welding much . its not necessarily a track truck just a fun driver. thanks a bunch

[robnolimit]

Too cool. Is that from PRI? So, caster, camber toe and bumpsteer all at once, and scales?, and is it active? - can you raise and lower the suspension?

[DM Garage]

It was at the IMIS Show(soon to be PRI) last week! It was super cool, I tried to get more screen pics but they didn't come out good. Yes it has scales on all four wheels and you can pull down or raise up and watch the load vs. travel change along with bump steer, camber curve and several other options. I was so geeked out over it that it took a couple minutes for me to realize I was standing next to Brad Keslowski!

[bo-w]

i recently ordered drop springs from no limit , all n all it was a great conversation over the phone all my questions were answered. I will definitely be ordering more through rob's bunch, shock re-locaters and drop shocks are next once i get my ride hight all situated.

[bo-w]

one other question and i looked a bit through this thread, as far as rear trailing arms positioning i know flipping the mount is a good option but as a rule of thumb on the truck arms is level the best position for the arm , im not against just flipping the mount but have the oppertunity at this time to fabricate a bit and position the mount how ever may ne tthe best results within reason. thanks

[derrickmanx1]

Originally Posted by bo-w

one other question and i looked a bit through this thread, as far as rear trailing arms positioning i know flipping the mount is a good option but as a rule of thumb on the truck arms is level the best position for the arm , im not against just flipping the mount but have the oppertunity at this time to fabricate a bit and position the mount how ever may ne tthe best results within reason. thanks

This is what I was looking at and wanting to clairify. It seems to make some sense because of the whole thought of the use of leverage. I'm hoping someone can help this make a little better sense. Thanks in advance for all of the good advice.

[DM Garage]

Yes, in my opinion level at ride height is the best position to have the trailing arms in if you can get them there!

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Anyone think the have an idea for making the front centerlink on our trucks stiffer? My WHOLE front end is rebuilt and I notice that you can stand on the centerlink and flex it. I can't imagine this is great for a handling or road feel standpoint. I know a rack an pinion would make this go away but I'm not that rich yet.

Also rob any advise for shock tuning for those of us running adjustable shocks? Just how bound and rebound effect ride/performance?
Posted via Mobile Device

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

Anyone think the have an idea for making the front centerlink on our trucks stiffer? My WHOLE front end is rebuilt and I notice that you can stand on the centerlink and flex it. I can't imagine this is great for a handling or road feel standpoint. I know a rack an pinion would make this go away but I'm not that rich yet.

Also rob any advise for shock tuning for those of us running adjustable shocks? Just how bound and rebound effect ride/performance?
Posted via Mobile Device

Hotchkis' front lower A-arm kit comes with a new center link made from bar stock, but are pricy. Here's a link to there page.

http://www.hotchkis.net/6372_c10_tub...trol_arms.html

The rack and pinion kits that are available now for these trucks would definately be an improvement in steering (stability, less bump steer, etc.) and worth the added expense.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by GEARBOXGARAGE

Hotchkis' front lower A-arm kit comes with a new center link made from bar stock, but are pricy. Here's a link to there page.

http://www.hotchkis.net/6372_c10_tub...trol_arms.html

The rack and pinion kits that are available now for these trucks would definately be an improvement in steering (stability, less bump steer, etc.) and worth the added expense.

Only Prob is I have a square 73-87. Not that I have an issue with hotchkis but I don't like the 60% mark up on their prices because they just can. Kinda like dynomat.
Posted via Mobile Device

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Yeah, there is a bit of a difference in pricing on their products compared to similar items from other manufacturers. We've installed CPP's A-arms and plan on using them on future builds, as well, and the cost difference is enough to be able to purchase a rack unit and still come out ahead. Not nockin' Hotchkis, great products, we've used them, but it's hard to convince a customer to buy something that has 90% of the same feature/quality for twice the price.

[robnolimit]

It may not be the center links fault, it could be the idler arm. Check out some of the Oval Track race supply shops, like Howe racing or Circle Track Supply. They have custom center links avail for many apps. Check there pricing for a shock

[CSGAS]

Rob, in addition to the wheel backspacing preferences, do you know if anyone's done an analysis of the stock truck geometry? If not I can get some of the pickup points in the next week sometime. If we can get actual critical measurements of different manufacturer's products, we could get a real idea of what actually makes improvements and what is just expensive dressing, and so on. I don't think I have the equipment to get exact specs (no lasers, no wheel mounting face stands, etc) but the numbers I do get, at least for ride height, will be good and someone may have the software (Mitchell? Anything else?) to enter for simulations.

Also, on the centerlink alternatives, if you can get the Hotchkiss measurements posted there just may be a stock car used parts reseller who has a billet piece, some over an inch thick, that was made with a range that can be adjusted to the same measurements using "slugs"...when I post the stock measurements it should be easy to figure out what measurements we're going to need, but you can start off with the distances between a PLUMB LINE hanging from each of the attachment points (tie rod ends, idler, etc) and then the difference in height between the attachment points. We'll get deeper into it, later I'm sure.

[G8DAN]

So yesterday when I was testing the truck out on some canyon roads and I noticed the truck was heavily under steering towards the other lane. I do know that since the majority of the weight is on the front head the truck will tend to push alot but this time seemed excessive.

But since I am running stock length shocks up front with the 3 inch drop springs, will that affect the handling on the truck? The way I'm thinking is that the front suspension is not transfering the weight correctly causing the truck to understeer even more than usual. Am I on the right track with this mindset?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by G8DAN

So yesterday when I was testing the truck out on some canyon roads and I noticed the truck was heavily under steering towards the other lane. I do know that since the majority of the weight is on the front head the truck will tend to push alot but this time seemed excessive.

But since I am running stock length shocks up front with the 3 inch drop springs, will that affect the handling on the truck? The way I'm thinking is that the front suspension is not transfering the weight correctly causing the truck to understeer even more than usual. Am I on the right track with this mindset?

First of all, ALL trucks will push if your going fast enough. It's simply a wieght balance vs. force equation. Our goal is to tame it as much as possible. As far as the shocks, remember that a stock shock allowed full travel all the way to the bump stop. Now, the shock may not be in the center of its travel at R.H., but shock valving is linear, or constant, so it should react about the same. The shorter spring probably has a stiffer spring rate than stock, making the push worse.
Work with what you got first. Add some neg. camber, do it the easy way. Just pull one shim out of the front, and two out of the back of the upper A arm mounts. This way you can put them back easy. Then, add a little toe out. A little. This is easy too. Loosen the lock bolts on the adjuster sleaves and rotate the sleave 1/2 turn to make the tie rod longer. - look carefully at the threads to get the rotation right. Do this to both sides, again, easy to go back. Take 4 psi out of each front tire (make the two even as well) and 5 psi out of each rear. Then go drive the same road.
One more tip. "late braking" on street tires is a bad idea. - Especially in a nose heavy truck. When you approach a corner, brake early while still in a relatively straight line. As you begin to turn in to the corner, add throttle a little bit at a time. You wil learn that adding throttle will help to get rid of the push, this is becauce the acceleration is taking weight off of the front tires and allowing them to turn. It's not natural to do this, but it works. Happy New Years.