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Old 03-25-2016, 10:35 PM   #26
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyLarry View Post
Looks great! You’re going to love having overdrive

Lots of ways to skin a cat with mating a NV4500 to a NP205’s. I went the avenue of replacing the long 32 spline input on my round 205 to an early short input to avoid using the AA spacer between the trans/tcase. That also prevented the need for any driveshaft mods.
I used this input gear in my 205


And removed this one....


View of how my round 205 is mounted to the NV4500 rear cover
From everything I read before the swap I was almost sure my t-case was going to end up rearward about 1.5" from its original location. I was pleasantly surprised even with the adapter that all my drivelines bolted back into the same spot.

I do like the thought of how you used the shorter input. Not only did it help by not having to buy an adapter it also allow the weight of the 205 to be closer to the mounting flange of the nv4500. I know the spacer only moves the 205 back approx. 1.6" but that just amplifies the weight the NV4500 has hanging on its back. I figured the rod from the t-case to the bellhousing bolt will aid in stabilizing and relieving some of the hanging stress the 205 puts onto the nv4500.

The NV4500 is a robust piece but a cast iron tail housing would make me a little more relaxed since the 205 is so hefty.
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:58 AM   #27
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Good looking swap. I couldn't imagine going back to no OD. Your floor laid down about as nice as mine! After wrestling with a set of 50 lbs. dumbbells and a heat gun for a couple days I accepted that's as good as it's going to get.
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:37 AM   #28
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Very nice looking swap. It always amazes me how easy some of you make things look. I have an '86 4 wheel drive that I have been wanting to do this same thing to.
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Old 11-29-2016, 01:22 AM   #29
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

where did you find the early short spline?
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Old 11-30-2016, 10:16 AM   #30
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

amsoil fluid is half the cost of the dealer fluid, and is a better fluid for it.
the short inputs are way easier to find than the long ones.
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Old 11-30-2016, 10:19 AM   #31
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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amsoil fluid is half the cost of the dealer fluid, and is a better fluid for it.
the short inputs are way easier to find than the long ones.
Yea I'm running Amsoil MTG in it.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:03 PM   #32
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

I'm about half way through an nv4500 swap in my c30 right now, the only custom piece I'm using is a hydraulic clutch line
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:09 PM   #33
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Subscribing because I am in the planning stage of mine as well.
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:48 AM   #34
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

If you go from a TH400 to an NV4500, the rear mount is in the same exact spot, and in my case it uses the same exact mount that the '94 Chevy the trans came out of with my '87. My swap has an NP208.
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:27 PM   #35
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

I'll just add to this thread three years later--

If you switch between a sm465 and a nv4500, with both being 4wd, the crossmember and transfer case stay in the same exact position.
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Old 10-26-2020, 03:43 PM   #36
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

So in essence:

A 465 and nv4500 with bellhousings are the exact same length? And..they are BOTH the same length as a TH400?

I'm guessing that the OP of this thread is using factory 2 piece driveshaft?

I'm thinking that the swap wasn't exactly the same because DirtyLarry didn't use the 1.625 inch spacer and he also claims everything bolted back in?

Maybe the slip joints in the driveshafts are what's making up the differences?
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Old 10-26-2020, 04:08 PM   #37
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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Originally Posted by SunSoaked View Post
I'm thinking that the swap wasn't exactly the same because DirtyLarry didn't use the 1.625 inch spacer and he also claims everything bolted back in?

Maybe the slip joints in the driveshafts are what's making up the differences?
I wondered about that too. But I have heard that one of the automatics(th400?) was the same exact length as the sm465.

I will confess, I didn't do a direct swap from one to the other. I swapped the entire drivetrain from a 350/sm465/np208 to a 5.3/nv4500/np241c. I measured from the bellhousing mating surface to the rear of the clamshell mount. I matched that 14" measurement on the new engine, and bolted it in with the nv4500. The trans crossmember bolted right in like it did before.
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Old 10-26-2020, 04:25 PM   #38
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

I'm thinking there is several ways to make the swap depending on what parts are used.

I'm getting ready to begin my swap in the next few weeks. I'm swapping the 400/208 for the 4500/AA spacer/205 t-case.

My biggest issue is determining if I need to run a two piece rear shaft due to the overall longer length because the 4500 is shorter and the 205 is way shorter due to the fixed yoke.

What is/was your setup? I'm assuming your 241 has a slip yoke?
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Old 11-15-2020, 07:58 AM   #39
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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Originally Posted by SunSoaked View Post
I'm thinking there is several ways to make the swap depending on what parts are used.

I'm getting ready to begin my swap in the next few weeks. I'm swapping the 400/208 for the 4500/AA spacer/205 t-case.

My biggest issue is determining if I need to run a two piece rear shaft due to the overall longer length because the 4500 is shorter and the 205 is way shorter due to the fixed yoke.

What is/was your setup? I'm assuming your 241 has a slip yoke?
Sorry, I'm just now seeing this. Yes, my former 208 and my new 241 both have slip yokes. My driveshaft is 3.5" diameter, and 53" in length between the u-joints. This does not count the length of the slip yoke. I neglected to measure that.

The reason a lot of these parts have the same exact dimensions, is because GM was swapping them in the middle of a model run. The sm465 got a different bellhousing(passenger side external slave) and an aluminum shift cover with a more rearward shift position, when it was installed in the gmt400 trucks. The rest of the transmission remained exactly the same as the one used in the 87-91 R/V trucks. When the sm465 was swapped out in the middle of the model run for the nv3500/nv4500, those two transmissions were sized to fit exactly in the vacated space. In the same way, the np241 took the place of the np208 during the gmt400 and R/V model runs. Again, it only made sense for GM to spec the np241 as an exact drop-in replacement. In contrast to this, the switch from Gen-1 small blocks to Gen-3's occurred at the beginning of a new model run. Because of this, these engines don't swap as easily. GM obviously wanted to use their former transmissions with the new engines, so the bellhousing patterns remained the same. But since they were changing the chassis at the same time as the engine, there was no need to keep the engine mounts in the same place. That got a little long winded, but it's illustrating a principle. Look at an issue from GM's point of view. If it was in their best interest to make several parts interchangeable, they probably did.
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Old 11-15-2020, 09:54 AM   #40
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

That's good info. Makes sense. Thanks
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Old 11-15-2020, 12:05 PM   #41
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Quote:
The sm465 got a different bellhousing(passenger side external slave) and an aluminum shift cover with a more rearward shift position, when it was installed in the gmt400 trucks. The rest of the transmission remained exactly the same as the one used in the 87-91 R/V trucks. When the sm465 was swapped out in the middle of the model run for the nv3500/nv4500, those two transmissions were sized to fit exactly in the vacated space.
So ... does that mean an SM465 would just drop into a 1989 GMT400 with the NV3500 ?

(I know you're asking "Why?" but I use it more off-road than on the highway so the granny gear would be more useful than the overdrive)
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Old 11-15-2020, 12:35 PM   #42
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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Originally Posted by 1976gmc20 View Post
So ... does that mean an SM465 would just drop into a 1989 GMT400 with the NV3500 ?

(I know you're asking "Why?" but I use it more off-road than on the highway so the granny gear would be more useful than the overdrive)
If you can find an aluminum-top sm465, yes. The aluminum tops had the rearward shift position and the low passenger side slave. You'll want to definitely get the correct bellhousing to go with this sm465.

The squarebody iron-tops will need floor modifications, custom slave cylinder plumbing, and possibly exhaust rerouting to clear the slave.

Also look for the 1992-1994 nv4500. These years had the granny gear and the overdrive. The granny isn't quite as deep as the sm465, but it's close. These should drop right in, but you might have to change the transfer case input shaft. Again, you'll want to purchase an nv4500 complete with a bellhousing.

I might be winging it a bit here. I'm confident in my information regarding the nv4500. I'm less certain about my knowledge of the nv3500. Keep that in mind with the following paragraph.

The R/V trucks continued to offer the iron-top sm465 as the only manual option through the end of their run in 1991. The gmt400 trucks started out with the nv3500 in 1988 on the half-tons. The heavier trucks got the aluminum-top sm465's with the rearward shift position and passenger side slave. This shift position and slave position were identical to the nv3500. In 1992, the sm465 was dropped for good, and the nv4500 showed up on the scene. This was the same length, the same shift position, and the same slave position as the lighter nv3500 and the now-discontinued aluminum-top sm465. My knowledge of the nv3500 drops out at this point. The nv4500 continued in the granny-low configuration through 1994. In 1995, it was rearranged to match the Dodge nv4500 ratios. Granny low was dropped, and all the gears were spaced better for daily driving. In 1996, the bellhousing to trans bolt pattern was changed to match the dodge bolt pattern. At the same time, a new internal slave bellhousing was introduced. A few more minor changes followed in 1997 and 2001, but those don't affect fitment much.

In summary, any manual transmission from a gmt400 should be interchangeable with any other, until you get into the mid-90's with the internal slaves. The aluminum-top sm465, the nv3500, and the nv4500 can all be switched. Just make sure each one comes with it's respective bellhousing. The bellhousing has to stay with the respective transmission. Also, the spline counts on the t-case input shaft might change between the lighter weight trucks and the heavy weights. The input shaft on a np241 is a very easy and cheap swap, though.
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Last edited by kipps; 11-15-2020 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 11-16-2020, 01:22 PM   #43
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Okay, thanks!

That tells me just any old 465 won't fit; has to be from a GMT400. So I will just go back to my original plan: eventually try to find a decent 73-87 K/20 with an SM465 for my "ranch" truck.

I get pretty tired of putting the 89 K1500 in low range any time I need to back up a little hill, or do anything slow and careful
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Old 01-15-2021, 11:59 AM   #44
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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Originally Posted by kipps View Post
I'll just add to this thread three years later--

If you switch between a sm465 and a nv4500, with both being 4wd, the crossmember and transfer case stay in the same exact position.
I know this is somewhat of an old thread, but can you confirm this? I have an 89 v30 with SM465 (shot) and NP205. I would love to swap to an NV4500 instead of rebuilding the sm465. I’ve read a bunch about it, but a little confused. How can I make them the same length, swap input shaft on the Tcase, put an adapter between them, both? I would love to leave Tcase in the factory position and not mess with driveshaft lengths. Thanks!
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Old 01-15-2021, 01:17 PM   #45
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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I know this is somewhat of an old thread, but can you confirm this? I have an 89 v30 with SM465 (shot) and NP205. I would love to swap to an NV4500 instead of rebuilding the sm465. I’ve read a bunch about it, but a little confused. How can I make them the same length, swap input shaft on the Tcase, put an adapter between them, both? I would love to leave Tcase in the factory position and not mess with driveshaft lengths. Thanks!
I've never worked with, or researched, a np205. I don't know much about how they vary from the np208 in fitment. post #6 of the following link indicates that sm465-fitted 85-91 np205 are interchangeable with the sm465-fitted np208 cases. Also, the np241 and np208 are identical in fitment. By correlation, the 85-91 np205 "should" fit in place of the np241 which came behind the nv4500 from the factory.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/sm...-np205.519198/

It appears you have one of the rare desirable 32-spline np205 cases with the round six-bolt pattern.

A nv4500 is virtually the same length as a sm465, if both are 4wd. There are slight differences of less than 1/2 an inch, but as far as I know, that's just manufacturing discrepancies over the years. It's not enough to cause any issue with driveshafts.

A potential issue is the transfer case shift linkage. The nv4500 never had the connection point for the transfer case shift linkage that the np205 requires. You'll need to fab up a bracket, or buy one. It appears that Advance Adapters makes, or did make, a bracket for that purpose.

Edit to add: be sure to look over any nv4500 good before installing it. Ideally even before buying it. Remove the shift cover, the pto plates, and the rear extension housing. Look for any debris in the oil, check for excessive slop in the input shaft/mainshaft combo, make sure there are no chipped or badly worn gear teeth, and confirm that the fifth gear nut and gear are still in their correct locations. It's also possible to tell the general condition of the synchros, just by looking at the spacing between the sychro teeth and the engagement teeth. I'm not well versed on that, though. I bought a 1997 nv4500 sight-unseen, and intended to stab it in and run it as-is. I opened it up, and found that fifth gear was half-way backed off, the input shaft thrust bearing was gone, the 3/4 synchro hub was trashed because of that missing bearing, the parts of that bearing had chipped two gear teeth, and the synchros were heavily worn. I'm facing $1000 in parts to get this thing back in operable condition. If I had run it as-is, it most certainly would have failed in the first 100 miles. These nv4500's are not hard to work on, if you have access to bearing pullers, a press, and basic fabrication tools for making some of the specialty tools required.
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Last edited by kipps; 01-15-2021 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 01-16-2021, 11:47 PM   #46
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kipps View Post
I've never worked with, or researched, a np205. I don't know much about how they vary from the np208 in fitment. post #6 of the following link indicates that sm465-fitted 85-91 np205 are interchangeable with the sm465-fitted np208 cases. Also, the np241 and np208 are identical in fitment. By correlation, the 85-91 np205 "should" fit in place of the np241 which came behind the nv4500 from the factory.

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/sm...-np205.519198/

It appears you have one of the rare desirable 32-spline np205 cases with the round six-bolt pattern.

A nv4500 is virtually the same length as a sm465, if both are 4wd. There are slight differences of less than 1/2 an inch, but as far as I know, that's just manufacturing discrepancies over the years. It's not enough to cause any issue with driveshafts.

A potential issue is the transfer case shift linkage. The nv4500 never had the connection point for the transfer case shift linkage that the np205 requires. You'll need to fab up a bracket, or buy one. It appears that Advance Adapters makes, or did make, a bracket for that purpose.

Edit to add: be sure to look over any nv4500 good before installing it. Ideally even before buying it. Remove the shift cover, the pto plates, and the rear extension housing. Look for any debris in the oil, check for excessive slop in the input shaft/mainshaft combo, make sure there are no chipped or badly worn gear teeth, and confirm that the fifth gear nut and gear are still in their correct locations. It's also possible to tell the general condition of the synchros, just by looking at the spacing between the sychro teeth and the engagement teeth. I'm not well versed on that, though. I bought a 1997 nv4500 sight-unseen, and intended to stab it in and run it as-is. I opened it up, and found that fifth gear was half-way backed off, the input shaft thrust bearing was gone, the 3/4 synchro hub was trashed because of that missing bearing, the parts of that bearing had chipped two gear teeth, and the synchros were heavily worn. I'm facing $1000 in parts to get this thing back in operable condition. If I had run it as-is, it most certainly would have failed in the first 100 miles. These nv4500's are not hard to work on, if you have access to bearing pullers, a press, and basic fabrication tools for making some of the specialty tools required.

$1000 in parts? I'm fixing to rebuild my spare nv4500 at about half that price from Allstate. I wouldn't buy a used trans without assuming it needs rebuilt. Although I got lucky on my current one I just installed but I was able to drive the donor truck before he pulled it.
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Old 01-17-2021, 12:07 AM   #47
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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$1000 in parts? I'm fixing to rebuild my spare nv4500 at about half that price from Allstate. I wouldn't buy a used trans without assuming it needs rebuilt. Although I got lucky on my current one I just installed but I was able to drive the donor truck before he pulled it.
I've been deliberating between torqueking parts and rockauto parts. I would save a bit by buying from rockauto, but I'd still have to order some parts elsewhere if I did that. Torqueking has everything in stock. The biggest share of that cost is the rebuild kit itself, at $500. The rest of the expense is in the oil, the chipped 51-tooth countershaft fifth gear, the input shaft with its chipped gear, the trashed 3/4 hub, and a few small bits that I'll need.

Torqueking uses better quality bearings than rockauto offers, and the bearings were what caused my issues in the first place, so I feel some obligation to install the best bearings I can. I really don't want to go back in to this transmission. I'll be welding the fifth gear nut and gear together, so that shouldn't be failing any time soon.
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Old 01-17-2021, 12:17 AM   #48
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

Allstate gear has better quality parts. I refuse to buy Chinese crap anymore.
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Old 01-17-2021, 07:24 AM   #49
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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Allstate gear has better quality parts. I refuse to buy Chinese crap anymore.
From what little I can tell, Allstate gear appears to have the same offerings as RockAuto. Likely the same kits and the same prices. TorqueKing seems like the more reputable company compared to Allstate. They've established an excellent reputation for actually knowing these transmissions, and their bearings are a higher spec than others.
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Old 02-02-2021, 06:05 AM   #50
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Re: NV4500 swap installed and rollin!

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Originally Posted by yfs200p View Post
I know this is somewhat of an old thread, but can you confirm this? I have an 89 v30 with SM465 (shot) and NP205. I would love to swap to an NV4500 instead of rebuilding the sm465. I’ve read a bunch about it, but a little confused. How can I make them the same length, swap input shaft on the Tcase, put an adapter between them, both? I would love to leave Tcase in the factory position and not mess with driveshaft lengths. Thanks!
I have been there and done this on my thread and had 1.5" longer than what I had before . though i took out a sm465 /bathtub np205 and replaced it with nv4500/round pattern 205 with short input swap.
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