47-55.1 *Steering Wheel Centering*

[Zippi]

Even though pretty much everything up front has been replace, while driving it home from the shop I still have some play in the wheel and it seems like I'm constantly correcting. I noticed the connection in the pic from the steering wheel to the steering box that there is some play. The bolt is tight but there is more play than I would think there should be. Also, the steering box is tucked way up close to the front and it's pretty much only visible from under the truck. I was looking for the adjustment. The rag joint looks good.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Zippi

Even though pretty much everything up front has been replace, while driving it home from the shop I still have some play in the wheel and it seems like I'm constantly correcting. I noticed the connection in the pic from the steering wheel to the steering box that there is some play. The bolt is tight but there is more play than I would think there should be. Also, the steering box is tucked way up close to the front and it's pretty much only visible from under the truck. I was looking for the adjustment. The rag joint looks good.

there is no adjustment on gm boxes except a very small adjustment for wear. it is a set screw on the top of the box.

it looks like the knuckle is about to fall apart and based on misalignment it looks like the lower bearing in your column has failed. the lower bearing is easy to replace but requires the shaft to be taken off.

it could be that the bearing failed because the linkage is exceeding the knuckles ability to correct the angle, that is a stock GM knuckle and they are only capable of about 15 degrees misalignment. you should replace the setup with borgeson u joints, which can take up to 35 degrees. in that case you would replace the setup with a u joint (knuckle) that attaches to the column, a shaft that goes to the box, and a u joint at the steering box. doing this will help with misalignment too, with a rag joint at the box ALL the misalignment has to be fixed at the knuckle.


there are cheaper u joints than borgeson but being cheap on steering (or brakes) is a stupid way to die.


edit, here is a picture of my s10 setup. I used a borgeson collapsible shaft instead of just regular D rod, and I used a 98+ column so my upper u joint is actually inside the cab. still the same setup though, replaced the GM knuckle and rag joint.

[dsraven]

I'm with joedoh on this one. just replace the whole thing with a much better set up made for the angles you have. that joint you have is shot. really check the rag joint well too because they can look good but have cracks in the rubber and if you look deep into the cracks the cotton is also starting to deteriorate.
part of the alignment is a steering box adjustment so hopefully the shop checked it at least. if you are running wheel spacers or hogh offset wheels then the scrub radius can be affected which can make the vehicle follow every crack in the road. basically, the center of the contact patch needs to be roughly centered on the spot where a line drawn through the upper and lower ball joints intersects the ground. if the tire contact is out past that then the outside 1/2 of the tire wants to drag the steering outwards. if balanced on both sides the same (like it would be if you are using the same wheels both sides) then it would track pretty well normally but a high crown road or a crack or rut in the road will cause more drag on one side so you need to "herd" the truck down the road.if you take a suspension made for a large diameter tire and install a smaller diameter tire or a wheel with high pos or neg offset then the scrub radius will change. there are calculators online to figure out the differences and explain how it works.
anyway, just info for you at this point.
steering column work is in your future, haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUDMEd1bMZI

https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/?whe...cl=50mm&sr=0mm

[dsraven]

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wha...-it-important/

https://www.moderntiredealer.com/art...offset-matters

https://www.tirereview.com/scrub-radius-alignments/

[Zippi]

Thanks for all the good info guys.

[1project2many]

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

I'm not getting this. The steering shaft is splined; why can't he just put the steering wheel back on a couple of splines clockwise? Everything will be the same but the wheel spokes will now be centered, no?

This is possible with the old trucks but the column pictured above is not made that way. The lock plate sets turn signal cancel cam position. Turn signal cancel cam has the "horn connection" tower which protrudes up though lock plate and into the steering wheel. Wheel position is dependent on "horn connection" tower as the wheel fits over the plastic tower. The lock plate splines force the lock plate into only one position so "just turning the wheel" isn't possible.

Here is a lock plate. You can see the rounded area above the small square hole where the horn tower passes through. If you look you can also see the splines spaced differently.


A determined person could:

1) Throw out the turn signal cancel cam and install a separate horn button on the dash or column. Old trucks generally don't have to have auto cancelling signals.

2) Make a new hole in the lock plate for the "tower" to pass through thereby repositioning the cancel cam.

3) Grind all the internal splines out of the lock plate and remove the steering wheel locking pin. The splines are there to connect the wheel to the locking pin. If you fail to remove the pin after removing the splines then an accidental yank of the wheel when it's supposed to be locked will destroy the horn tower and cancel cam.

3) Get underneath the vehicle and make the adjustments correct.

FWIW This was answered in two different posts previously. I just figured I'd put those two answers together with the photo for future readers.

[Zippi]

Ok guys. After the Holidays I need to take a serious look at replacing this before Spring hits. I did a little more investigating and The rag joint looks good but it only gets worse from there. Pic #1 is were all the slop in the steering wheel is and Pic #2 seems to have a tapered look to it. Not sure what would fit that.

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

there is no adjustment on gm boxes except a very small adjustment for wear. it is a set screw on the top of the box.

it looks like the knuckle is about to fall apart and based on misalignment it looks like the lower bearing in your column has failed. the lower bearing is easy to replace but requires the shaft to be taken off.

it could be that the bearing failed because the linkage is exceeding the knuckles ability to correct the angle, that is a stock GM knuckle and they are only capable of about 15 degrees misalignment. you should replace the setup with borgeson u joints, which can take up to 35 degrees. in that case you would replace the setup with a u joint (knuckle) that attaches to the column, a shaft that goes to the box, and a u joint at the steering box. doing this will help with misalignment too, with a rag joint at the box ALL the misalignment has to be fixed at the knuckle.


there are cheaper u joints than borgeson but being cheap on steering (or brakes) is a stupid way to die.


edit, here is a picture of my s10 setup. I used a borgeson collapsible shaft instead of just regular D rod, and I used a 98+ column so my upper u joint is actually inside the cab. still the same setup though, replaced the GM knuckle and rag joint.

joedoh,

I like your setup. How do I connect it to Pic #2 above?

[joedoh]

no idea why its tapered, but doesnt immediately look wrong to me. here is the one I am working on right now.




you can see mine isnt tapered, you will figure out yours as soon as you take off that upper bolt and flex joint. more scarier is that it looks like the slip shaft on yours is slid almost all the way out, like there is only an inch or so in there. let me just reiterate, being cheap on steering or brakes is a damn stupid way to die.


should use the same setup as mine, 1" to 1" DD ujoint at the column, 1" to 3/4" DD slip shaft, and 3/4" DD to 30 spline ujoint at the box.

do not reuse the rag joint.

here is my parts list I order.

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

no idea why its tapered, but doesnt immediately look wrong to me. here is the one I am working on right now.




you can see mine isnt tapered, you will figure out yours as soon as you take off that upper bolt and flex joint. more scarier is that it looks like the slip shaft on yours is slid almost all the way out, like there is only an inch or so in there. let me just reiterate, being cheap on steering or brakes is a damn stupid way to die.


should use the same setup as mine, 1" to 1" DD ujoint at the column, 1" to 3/4" DD slip shaft, and 3/4" DD to 30 spline ujoint at the box.

do not reuse the rag joint.

here is my parts list I order.

Thanks for the pics. I have a couple questions. The coupler that fits onto the spline at the steering box, looks like the there is maybe a set screw and lock nut. Does that just tighten down on the spline? On the upper end how's does the coupler tighten down with the big hole in the column?

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

no idea why its tapered, but doesnt immediately look wrong to me. here is the one I am working on right now.




you can see mine isnt tapered, you will figure out yours as soon as you take off that upper bolt and flex joint. more scarier is that it looks like the slip shaft on yours is slid almost all the way out, like there is only an inch or so in there. let me just reiterate, being cheap on steering or brakes is a damn stupid way to die.


should use the same setup as mine, 1" to 1" DD ujoint at the column, 1" to 3/4" DD slip shaft, and 3/4" DD to 30 spline ujoint at the box.

do not reuse the rag joint.

here is my parts list I order.

Thanks for the pics. I have a couple questions. The coupler that fits onto the spline at the steering box, looks like the there is maybe a set screw and lock nut. Does that just tighten down on the spline? On the upper end how's does the coupler tighten down with the big hole in the column?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Zippi

Thanks for the pics. I have a couple questions. The coupler that fits onto the spline at the steering box, looks like the there is maybe a set screw and lock nut. Does that just tighten down on the spline? On the upper end how's does the coupler tighten down with the big hole in the column?

on the spline, there are two possibilities, on early steering boxes there is room to slide the set screw past the splines and tighten, on later boxes there is a flat that, when pointing straight up, means the box is at dead center.

on the upper side, for columns with a through hole, you can tack weld or even tape a piece inside the column shaft on one side, then the set screw tightens against it. that set screw is super long for that purpose.

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

on the spline, there are two possibilities, on early steering boxes there is room to slide the set screw past the splines and tighten, on later boxes there is a flat that, when pointing straight up, means the box is at dead center.

on the upper side, for columns with a through hole, you can tack weld or even tape a piece inside the column shaft on one side, then the set screw tightens against it. that set screw is super long for that purpose.

Thanks. I really won't know how many spline my steering box has until I get the rag joint off. I assume the ujoint at the column will slip over the part with the big hole and the spline end will fit onto the slip shaft ? Am I thinking correctly?

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

on the spline, there are two possibilities, on early steering boxes there is room to slide the set screw past the splines and tighten, on later boxes there is a flat that, when pointing straight up, means the box is at dead center.

on the upper side, for columns with a through hole, you can tack weld or even tape a piece inside the column shaft on one side, then the set screw tightens against it. that set screw is super long for that purpose.

Thanks. I really won't know how many spline my steering box has until I get the rag joint off. I assume the ujoint at the column will slip over the part with the big hole and the spline end will fit onto the slip shaft ? Am I thinking correctly?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Zippi

Thanks. I really won't know how many spline my steering box has until I get the rag joint off. I assume the ujoint at the column will slip over the part with the big hole and the spline end will fit onto the slip shaft ? Am I thinking correctly?

yep.

and if its an s10 or GM Metric box, its the one I listed. counting splines isnt really necessary but better safe than sorry I guess

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

yep.

and if its an s10 or GM Metric box, its the one I listed. counting splines isnt really necessary but better safe than sorry I guess

When you put yours back together I'd like to see a pick of how it goes together at the column if you don't mind.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Zippi

When you put yours back together I'd like to see a pick of how it goes together at the column if you don't mind.

sure.

it occurs to me that you have a much longer column sticking out of the firewall, you will probably be ok with the shorter slip shaft borgeson sells, its too short for mine (barely) but I have to cut about 5 " off the longer one. you may need to trim even the shorter one. looks like your column came out of a van or maybe a high cab truck like a topkick, its really long.

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

sure.

it occurs to me that you have a much longer column sticking out of the firewall, you will probably be ok with the shorter slip shaft borgeson sells, its too short for mine (barely) but I have to cut about 5 " off the longer one. you may need to trim even the shorter one. looks like your column came out of a van or maybe a high cab truck like a topkick, its really long.

I was told the column came out of a 1884 truck. I looked up those teliscoping shafts and the pic only show the bland end. You did say the other end was splined right? Looking at the pic of the ujoint you posted it looks like the 1"DD to 1" DD is splined in the pic even though I'd does not say it is. I took a measurement on mine and its aboard 20" from where the ujoint at the box would be to the nut at the column. I found the Borgeson 450024 which is 21" to 27" at the same price as the longer one.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Zippi

I was told the column came out of a 1884 truck. I looked up those teliscoping shafts and the pic only show the bland end. You did say the other end was splined right? Looking at the pic of the ujoint you posted it looks like the 1"DD to 1" DD is splined in the pic even though I'd does not say it is. I took a measurement on mine and its aboard 20" from where the ujoint at the box would be to the nut at the column. I found the Borgeson 450024 which is 21" to 27" at the same price as the longer one.

it goes

steering column, the end is a 1" DD

borgeson 015252 Steel Double D U-Joint 1" DD x 1" DD, one end to the steering column, the other end to the

borgeson 450024 telescoping shaft 1" DD to 3/4" DD 24 inches long, which goes to the

borgeson 014931 Steel Double U-Joint 3/4" DD x 30 spline which the spline will directly fit the steering box once you take the rag joint off and throw it away.

rag joints are just misalignment fixers that also act as vibration reducers, they can take maybe 2 degrees of misalignment of the shaft to the box before they pull themselves apart. the knuckle that is on your current shaft is that GM knuckle, it cant take a lot of misalignment either without shredding itself.

the way those parts were originally used was to have the steering column output DD pointing almost straight at the steering box input, so there was no stress on the rag joint or the knuckle. but the way its installed now is the steering column and the steering box dont point at each other, they dont even point in the same planes any more where the shaft is just slightly offset, the steering column points more down installed in an AD. The steering box cant be rotated up or down easily.

so if you get those three parts, you unbolt the through bolt at the column and remove the knuckle and there will be a 1"DD under it, you undo the ppinch bolt and remove the rag joint and there will be a 30 spline under it, and you throw everything in between away. then trim the telescoping shaft to a little more than the length needed and install the upper 1"DD to 1"DD u joint on the column, install the lower 3/4"DD to 30 spline on the steering box, compress the telescoping shaft a little then install the top part to the 1"DD open on the upper u joint, and the bottom part to the 3/4"DD open on the lower u joint, making sure the shafts dont stick into the inside of the u joint (it can bind it) and tighten all your set screws. test the system, and if its good, tighten the lock nuts on the set screws.

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

it goes

steering column, the end is a 1" DD

borgeson 015252 Steel Double D U-Joint 1" DD x 1" DD, one end to the steering column, the other end to the

borgeson 450024 telescoping shaft 1" DD to 3/4" DD 24 inches long, which goes to the

borgeson 014931 Steel Double U-Joint 3/4" DD x 30 spline which the spline will directly fit the steering box once you take the rag joint off and throw it away.

rag joints are just misalignment fixers that also act as vibration reducers, they can take maybe 2 degrees of misalignment of the shaft to the box before they pull themselves apart. the knuckle that is on your current shaft is that GM knuckle, it cant take a lot of misalignment either without shredding itself.

the way those parts were originally used was to have the steering column output DD pointing almost straight at the steering box input, so there was no stress on the rag joint or the knuckle. but the way its installed now is the steering column and the steering box dont point at each other, they dont even point in the same planes any more where the shaft is just slightly offset, the steering column points more down installed in an AD. The steering box cant be rotated up or down easily.

so if you get those three parts, you unbolt the through bolt at the column and remove the knuckle and there will be a 1"DD under it, you undo the ppinch bolt and remove the rag joint and there will be a 30 spline under it, and you throw everything in between away. then trim the telescoping shaft to a little more than the length needed and install the upper 1"DD to 1"DD u joint on the column, install the lower 3/4"DD to 30 spline on the steering box, compress the telescoping shaft a little then install the top part to the 1"DD open on the upper u joint, and the bottom part to the 3/4"DD open on the lower u joint, making sure the shafts dont stick into the inside of the u joint (it can bind it) and tighten all your set screws. test the system, and if its good, tighten the lock nuts on the set screws.

Thanks for the info. It takes a little bit for this ole man to see the light. I will be ordering all 3 Borgeson parts mentioned above some time shortly after all the holidays are over and I can recover from the pinch on my wallet. Looking forward to the upgrade and a better feel on the steering wheel.

[Driver_WT]

Originally Posted by joedoh

it goes

steering column, the end is a 1" DD

borgeson 015252 Steel Double D U-Joint 1" DD x 1" DD, one end to the steering column, the other end to the

borgeson 450024 telescoping shaft 1" DD to 3/4" DD 24 inches long, which goes to the

borgeson 014931 Steel Double U-Joint 3/4" DD x 30 spline which the spline will directly fit the steering box once you take the rag joint off and throw it away.

rag joints are just misalignment fixers that also act as vibration reducers, they can take maybe 2 degrees of misalignment of the shaft to the box before they pull themselves apart. the knuckle that is on your current shaft is that GM knuckle, it cant take a lot of misalignment either without shredding itself.

the way those parts were originally used was to have the steering column output DD pointing almost straight at the steering box input, so there was no stress on the rag joint or the knuckle. but the way its installed now is the steering column and the steering box dont point at each other, they dont even point in the same planes any more where the shaft is just slightly offset, the steering column points more down installed in an AD. The steering box cant be rotated up or down easily.

so if you get those three parts, you unbolt the through bolt at the column and remove the knuckle and there will be a 1"DD under it, you undo the ppinch bolt and remove the rag joint and there will be a 30 spline under it, and you throw everything in between away. then trim the telescoping shaft to a little more than the length needed and install the upper 1"DD to 1"DD u joint on the column, install the lower 3/4"DD to 30 spline on the steering box, compress the telescoping shaft a little then install the top part to the 1"DD open on the upper u joint, and the bottom part to the 3/4"DD open on the lower u joint, making sure the shafts dont stick into the inside of the u joint (it can bind it) and tighten all your set screws. test the system, and if its good, tighten the lock nuts on the set screws.

Thanks for the great info and the part numbers Joedoh. I am looking at making the same changes for safety and to create a bit more room where the steering shaft goes by the headers (S10 has that big lump in the middle of the steering shaft that is too close to my headers).

Wade

[joedoh]

wade if you have the shorter column you may need the longer telescoping shaft. they are the same price, so not a big deal to make sure you get the right one. just add 1.5" to the straightline measurement between the column DD and the steering box splines. remember that you want it to have some room to telescope in a wreck, so dont use the fully collapsed measurement, add a couple inches.

zippi make sure you punch your builder in the mouth. I cant believe someone was so cavalier with someone elses life to save/make an extra $250. also, remember what I said about straight up on the steering box, the flat of the splines will point straight up and the drag link/idler arm will point straight forward at that point. if you use the u joints and DD shaft the steering wheel will also be centered. but if you have adjusted the tie rods incorrectly from this point you may need another alignment, sorry. I dropped my current truck 3 inches with springs and the steering went straight down the road but needed the tie rods adjusted to make the steering wheel point straight.

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

wade if you have the shorter column you may need the longer telescoping shaft. they are the same price, so not a big deal to make sure you get the right one. just add 1.5" to the straightline measurement between the column DD and the steering box splines. remember that you want it to have some room to telescope in a wreck, so dont use the fully collapsed measurement, add a couple inches.

zippi make sure you punch your builder in the mouth. I cant believe someone was so cavalier with someone elses life to save/make an extra $250. also, remember what I said about straight up on the steering box, the flat of the splines will point straight up and the drag link/idler arm will point straight forward at that point. if you use the u joints and DD shaft the steering wheel will also be centered. but if you have adjusted the tie rods incorrectly from this point you may need another alignment, sorry. I dropped my current truck 3 inches with springs and the steering went straight down the road but needed the tie rods adjusted to make the steering wheel point straight.

borgeson 153-450036
Joedoh,
Thanks for the heads up, I was thinking since the steering wheel is locked in place I could just remove all the old crap and replace with the new and be good to go? I will check the box and see where the flat is though. If it's not straight up then I'll be scratching my head.

I pulled the steering shaft out of the truck. As you had noted it didn't look like the telescoping section was in very far but it was in 3". That's what made me take it apart this morning. I did get the nut broke free at the rag joint but have not gotten it off yet. It is about 1/2" away from a pulley so this will be fun. I'm assuming the 1" DD shaft will slide inside the tube with the hole at the column?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Zippi

I'm assuming the 1" DD shaft will slide inside the tube with the hole at the column?

I must be explaining this poorly. but no. the 1"DD shaft will not slide in or even touch the tube with the hole at the bottom of the column.


you will put a u joint at the steering column. one side of the u joint will slide OVER the tube with the hole at the column. then the 1"DD side of the telescoping shaft will slide into that u joint on the other side.

same thing at the rag joint, you will take it off and the u joint with the 30 spline will go on the steering box in its place, and the 3/4"DD side of the telescoping shaft will slide into that u joint on the other side.


that slip shaft is not supposed to be out that far, it should be in as far as the rust is showing, about another 4".

[Zippi]

Originally Posted by joedoh

I must be explaining this poorly. but no. the 1"DD shaft will not slide in or even touch the tube with the hole at the bottom of the column.


you will put a u joint at the steering column. one side of the u joint will slide OVER the tube with the hole at the column. then the 1"DD side of the telescoping shaft will slide into that u joint on the other side.

same thing at the rag joint, you will take it off and the u joint with the 30 spline will go on the steering box in its place, and the 3/4"DD side of the telescoping shaft will slide into that u joint on the other side.


that slip shaft is not supposed to be out that far, it should be in as far as the rust is showing, about another 4".

Your doing fine on your end of explaining. It's me. The tube at the column just looks big for that 1" DD coupler to fit over. I think I'm good to go. I have it apart now just need to order the parts.