More on EVs from a guy trying to sell them

[Boog]

Here, I'll loan you mine.

[MySons68C20]

Originally Posted by Boog

Here, I'll loan you mine.

https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...1&d=1702574671



Thank you!!

[LT7A]

Originally Posted by Willie Makeit

duly noted but also not overly concerned with folk's sense of alienation or hurt feelings. im not open to being lectured to by a non US citizen on what is or isn't good for us (US citizens) without also having an opportunity to share my own input & perspective. The entire world would have gone to $hit many many years ago if it were not for the US and it's citizen's generosity & sacrifice. sorry for the bluntness but our hyper-concern for "other people's feelings" is what is wrong in the world right now.

again, just my opinion.

If I'm not mistaken, you just got done saying DD's comments seemed mean-spirited to you. Yet you don't think you should be overly concerned with other people's feelings or with alienating them? It seems you're quite concerned how he addressed you (us Americans) but don't want to extend him the courtesy you're asking for. I've read many posts by DD and am glad for the info, entertainment, and perspective he brings here. I don't know him personally, but I guess because of what he adds to the discussions here, his questions/challenges didn't bother me. From someone else, maybe they would have.

The reason I even posted was that I don't want to be identified with a comment addressing a question about an electric car and ends up talking about shooting people. You seem to be able to make your point without that sort of over the top rhetoric and I'd be in favor of that.

Finally, I agree 100% that Americans have given a lot to the world...And Canadians have almost always been right there with us.

[tutone]

I would certainly hate for this thread to die before I got to interject my perfectly worthless opinion. I worked "plant" work for 32 years before retiring, and always lived 35 or so miles from there. So, I carpooled, swapped rides, bought economy cars from time to time, just to save a few bucks. Funny how that works, they would come around and ask for OT and you had no ride home at midnight. One declined offer and it would blow a month's gas savings.
That said, that was MY choice to do the ride swap. I didnt like 4 dollar gas,so I looked for a way to beat it. I would call it a draw after all those years. A learning experience if you will.
The paper mill I worked at didn't care how I got there, or got home. They needed a "warm body", for whatever the reason. Your transportation woes were on you, not them. This whole cycle, and I do mean cycle, of EV concious lawmakers, and such don't give a crap what you think, or if you walk, ride a bicycle or thumb everywhere. As long as you bend your will to suit them. I'm from the camp that I don't care how or what you spend your money on, I will do what I want with mine. I'm not all that shot in the butt with EVs anyway.

[Willie Makeit]

Originally Posted by LT7A

I guess it just depends how sensitive you are to other people's opinions and
being asked relevant questions. Clearly you're not the only one. Diesel made good points, even if you don't like how he put them across. I agree with the gist of what you said above except lack of concern for alienation and other people's feelings. That speaks of a whole other agenda and never helps any situation. I don't think that represents the site very well, but that's just my opinion… For myself, I just don't want to be identified with a guy who gets challenged about an electric car and talks about shooting people. I agree 100% that Americans have given a lot to the world...And Canadians have almost always been right there with us.

already stated, i'm NOT sensitive to rude & boorish opinions. there is a fashion & way to deliver one's opinion without coming across as rude. The "points" made are irrelevent when one debates from a perspective of superiority. Are we all not equals here? If so, then let's treat one another that way. You seem like a likable guy and communicate in a way that shows mutual respect and manners, I appreciate that and will treat you in a similar manner. I'm also good with you not wanting to "identify" with me based on my opinions, no offense taken, we all have our own "tribes". but i must point out that my earlier statement about the Brit's was an attempt at humor. sorry you read it differently.

i would also like to point out that I never questioned Canada as an ally. But i have noticed within the last few years this "look down their nose" air about some of a Canadian friends when it comes to expressing their opinions on the US. like I stated earlier, i will not sit quietly and listen to someone that has no "skin in the game" criticize & belittle in regards to the goings-on in the US when it has absolutely no bearing on them. If one wants to be considered a friend then one should act as a friend, & sometimes that means minding your manners. and your own business.

edit: i see you edited your original post. mine will be left as-is in response to your original post.

[MrBeast]

Do small EV's have a place?

The answer I would say to that is YES!

Will EV trucks and Semi's ever be mainstream? NO!

This all boils down to an energy density problem.

Batteries are heavy, and needing to charge batteries takes time.

Small electric cars are great for cities when you need a vehicle to travel further than you can walk, but will be returning to a home base, especially in areas where real estate is super expensive but electrical plugs are everywhere.

That being said, the further you get from city centers, the less practical they become.

The other issue is that the further from the equator you get the less practical an EV is because once you get into a place that has freezing temperatures, that EV battery must be kept warm, which requires even more power.

The other problem is that EV's rely heavily on the use of rare earth metals, and quite a bit of lithium. Which makes them expensive, and as the demand rises, it will get even more expensive.

The other problem is that the cars themselves use a lot of copper and aluminum, as well upgrading the grid to support them is going to require vast amounts of copper and aluminum, which is going to exponentially increase the cost of these materials which are already expensive.

Then we get to the issue of power generation, we simply do not have the power generation to make it all work and getting there is going to require building hundreds of new power plants, and unless people really warm up to the idea of nuke plants, we will never get there.

At the end of the day EV's as a small car make sense, they are light weight, can travel a reasonable distance, and can get most people in an urban center where they need to go and can help reduce localized pollution IF there is a non carbon power source available.

The idea that we will see them being used in the truck market with any kind of success is just silly and absurd.

[LT7A]

Originally Posted by Willie Makeit

edit: i see you edited your original post. mine will be left as-is in response to your original post.

Yep, sorry, it somehow got posted before I was done. I essentially rewrote it. If you find anything that you want to respond to, I'm up to hear about it. I respect what you said and could see what was said in this thread as a little more irksome if I had the conditioning you speak of with Canadian friends. I am conditioned from enjoying Diesel's input as well as other guys on here from north of the border. I can't help but want to keep them from changing their mind about participating here. I get your point about the humor with British, may have come across a little more pointed with me then you intended it to. And if I see it that way, it concerned me how they might see it. I am sensitive to people's feelings and alienation ; )

[72c20customcamper]

I may be off base but for the last 100 years the US has been in basically every country’s business . People from other countries have been and still are affected by what we do . Even things that happen internally in the US usually have world wide ramifications. While someone who lives in another country may not have a say as a resident to what we do it does affect them. So I for one have no problem with people from other countries voicing their opinions.

[68bowtie]

At the end of the day we all have more in common than not. I know I can get upset and not help the tension. We can all (myself included) focus more on making our points and siting facts, and not criticizing others opinions. That’s where I think it becomes personal and ugly. I do appreciate hearing other perspectives.

Related to this subject, like I said I work directly in the power generation industry and there are more problems with these latest govt mandates than I can state here with my fat thumbs on my phone without getting carpal tunnel. The $2.5B mentioned is not a positive. The power grid is functional today, that money is paid by rate payers and they should not have to eat that burden.

[Accelo]

[QUOTE=68bowtie;9265529]Not correct. In California we now have a law that makes it illegal to buy ICE vehicles. It will be phased in starting in 2026, zero ICE sales in 2035.
Don't forget this is a car mandate, not trucks. We all love our trucks.

In 2023 there still will be several 100 million used ICE cars on the market.
There are 290.8 million cars in the U.S. as of September 2022. Used ICE cars will be around for a long time

A lot of things can change in the next12 years.
I have 5 cars, and one EV.
I drive the EV every where I go. It is the fastest and most comfortable car I own. And it has the least maintenance and lowest cost per mile.
I drive 180 miles to do consulting and it costs me $4 in electric energy , if I charge at home.
Plus it returns fuel whenever I go down hill. No other vehicle can do this, including hydrogen. What if you got fuel back when ever you used the brakes instead of turning it into heat at the brakes.

To each his own. If you don't want to drive a EV it is very likely you never will.
I will say they have no soul. However, some times I don't need a vehicle with soul, just a safe method to move around!

[truckster]

Originally Posted by Accelo

I drive the EV every where I go. It is the fastest and most comfortable car I own. And it has the least maintenance and lowest cost per mile.
I drive 180 miles to do consulting and it costs me $4 in electric energy , if I charge at home.
Plus it returns fuel whenever I go down hill. No other vehicle can do this, including hydrogen. What if you got fuel back when ever you used the brakes instead of turning it into heat at the brakes.

I think I could look far and wide and never find an EV that would equal my annual cost of ownership (all in - fuel, insurance, maintenance, (no payments), etc.) of $2300 I've averaged over the last 4 years in my Blazer. I'm probably going to need new tires next year, but amortizing that $1200 over the six years the tires will last still adds only $200 per year.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by 57taskforce

Damn this board needs a like button so bad!

Yes, definitely. And we need a better set of smilies, as they're called. There's not even a decent "thumbs up", although you can do an image link to this one:

Most look like something kids would use on their iPhones.

[Accelo]

I very much enjoy my 1970 C10 with 354HP at the wheels. Cost per mile is sky high. Expensive to build and not the greatest mileage, especially the way I tend to drive it. Wouldn't trade it for an EV. I't just fun.

My EV burns about 3.3 cents of elect for every mile . If I used 20 miles per gal, like many vehicles, my fuel costs would be .66 cents to travel 20 miles.
If only using fuel costs EV's come out on top. There is the higher insurance rate and the tires don't last as long. But the upkeep is less, with no transmission, radiator, water pump, oil changes, engine air filters or exhaust to maintain.

We need a more efficient ICE motor as the best out there right now, it a Toyota at 40% at the motor. Most ICE vehicles are only 20% efficient. EVs, operate around 87% – 91% efficiency – in part due to regenerative braking, which recaptures energy that would otherwise get lost as heat from friction. We need a more efficient ICE motor as the best out there right now, is a Toyota at 40% (at the motor).

I don't care what anyone drives. An EV works for me. In the end one or the other will likely win out because of costs.
Enjoy life.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Accelo

I don't care what anyone drives. An EV works for me. In the end one or the other will likely win out because of costs.

It's great if an EV works for you. But they don't work for all of us, as evidenced by sluggish sales.

As for one winning out over the other, there should be room for both in a free country.

[67C10Step]

Originally Posted by MikeB

It's great if an EV works for you. But they don't work for all of us, as evidenced by sluggish sales.

As for one winning out over the other, there should be room for both in a free country.

This is one of the biggest problems I have with not just EV's. Because something works for you and you like it, does not mean it works for me or I like it. Often the message comes with some moral or intellectual superiority connotation that is very off putting. I am not an unwashed idiot for not wanting an EV at this point. Quite the contrary, I have been an engineer for a very long time and there is no economic justification at this point for me.

You know what I would really like? Fast, efficient, and safe mass transit where someone else does the driving while I drink my coffee and read up on business. BUT, that is never going to happen in my area and many others for tons of reasons.

My work commute Wednesday/Thursday was driving to our Kansas City office for meetings and back. No way I could have done that in two days in an EV. For those driving to the same place less than an hour from home every day it would work and that's great.

What I don't like is big brother telling me what I am going to own and why because they have built some false economy with mandates. Technology and market should be what wins over mandates.

[DeadheadNM]

GM to lay off 1,300 workers across two Michigan plants as vehicle production ends

“GM had planned to start production on the Chevrolet Silverado EV and GMC Sierra EV next year at Orion, but GM said that it will "retime the conversion" of Orion Assembly plant to EV truck production and restart the plant in late 2025 instead.”

HERE: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/car...s/71923694007/

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by 67C10Step

This is one of the biggest problems I have with not just EV's. Because something works for you and you like it, does not mean it works for me or I like it. Often the message comes with some moral or intellectual superiority connotation that is very off putting. I am not an unwashed idiot for not wanting an EV at this point. Quite the contrary, I have been an engineer for a very long time and there is no economic justification at this point for me.

You know what I would really like? Fast, efficient, and safe mass transit where someone else does the driving while I drink my coffee and read up on business. BUT, that is never going to happen in my area and many others for tons of reasons.

My work commute Wednesday/Thursday was driving to our Kansas City office for meetings and back. No way I could have done that in two days in an EV. For those driving to the same place less than an hour from home every day it would work and that's great.

What I don't like is big brother telling me what I am going to own and why because they have built some false economy with mandates. Technology and market should be what wins over mandates.

And yet again I need a damn like button!!!
GM should just keep the Camaro alive and kill the Silverado EV…

[68bowtie]

This thread needs some pictures.

I just saw this. First time I saw one.

[DeadheadNM]

A proposed bill in the state of Washington would make use of gas powered lawn equipment a criminal offense “by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars, or by imprisonment in the county jail for up to three hundred sixty-four days, or by both for each separate violation.” If successful, would seem like a coercive tactic to be used against private ownership of any ICE automobile.

The proposed bill is here: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/bienn...20231211143833

Summarized here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wa...rs/ar-AA1ls7iy

[Richard]

[quote=Accelo;9266759]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

Not correct. In California we now have a law that makes it illegal to buy ICE vehicles. It will be phased in starting in 2026, zero ICE sales in 2035.
Don't forget this is a car mandate, not trucks. We all love our trucks.

In 2023 there still will be several 100 million used ICE cars on the market.
There are 290.8 million cars in the U.S. as of September 2022. Used ICE cars will be around for a long time

A lot of things can change in the next12 years.
I have 5 cars, and one EV.
I drive the EV every where I go. It is the fastest and most comfortable car I own. And it has the least maintenance and lowest cost per mile.
I drive 180 miles to do consulting and it costs me $4 in electric energy , if I charge at home.
Plus it returns fuel whenever I go down hill. No other vehicle can do this, including hydrogen. What if you got fuel back when ever you used the brakes instead of turning it into heat at the brakes.

To each his own. If you don't want to drive a EV it is very likely you never will.
I will say they have no soul. However, some times I don't need a vehicle with soul, just a safe method to move around!

From what I understand the "light duty trucks" everyone registers and drives are included in the mandate. True it is not imposed on high GVW commercial vehicles. In Ca there will be more rules for those vehicles but do not have to be electric.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by DeadheadNM

GM to lay off 1,300 workers across two Michigan plants as vehicle production ends

“GM had planned to start production on the Chevrolet Silverado EV and GMC Sierra EV next year at Orion, but GM said that it will "retime the conversion" of Orion Assembly plant to EV truck production and restart the plant in late 2025 instead.”

HERE: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/car...s/71923694007/

I happened to drive by there on Saturday (on my way from Home Depot) and they have already started a huge amount of construction. Almost double the existing footprint, I'd say.

K

[DeadheadNM]

“CBC News has learned that Ottawa will release final regulations it says will ensure that all new passenger cars sold in Canada by 2035 are zero-emission vehicles, a senior government source said.”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ele...ault-1.7061381

[LT7A]

Originally Posted by DeadheadNM

A proposed bill in the state of Washington would make use of gas powered lawn equipment a criminal offense “by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars, or by imprisonment in the county jail for up to three hundred sixty-four days, or by both for each separate violation.” If successful, would seem like a coercive tactic to be used against private ownership of any ICE automobile.

The proposed bill is here: https://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/bienn...20231211143833

Summarized here: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wa...rs/ar-AA1ls7iy

Thanks for the info. Fortunately, there are some mitigating factors - this is a quote:
These bans typically target new gas-powered equipment, permitting people to keep and use tools they already own.

I've had the same mower for over 20 years and already have a backup. Here's to maintaining equipment!

If it makes it into law, I can stockpile as many mowers as I want, for free. People already give them away. There will be tons of them left out by the curb to give away. I will "own" them, before the ban, enough to give to future generations. That proviso makes it nearly unenforceable, but does the huge possible/probable disservice of neighbors looking into other neighbors' business. Which is kinda the intent I guess. Law enforcement is unlikely to stop and check how long you've owned your mower. The law could simply be about what is being sold. If you need a new mower and only electric ones are for sale... That will phase out the gas ones over time.

[68bowtie]

My understanding is it’s already signed into law. The dates are just in the future. I could be wrong.

Yeah I bet you’re right that just like smog staying at 1976+, I agree used engines will probably be grandfathered in. So guys like you can refurbish indefinitely.

Sadly though most of us don’t know how and we’ll have to compete for the good condition used vehicles, driving up prices.

[DeadheadNM]

Admitedly I only skimmed the bill but it sets a penalty for use of the equipment - I don't see an exemption. Agree, the CA bill precludes sale of new ICE equipment. The WA bill seems to take that a step further. I hope I am wrong.