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Old 07-30-2019, 07:21 PM   #1
Livemeyer
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Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

Oh boy...

After the discussions about why to buy the American made brands of steering column instead of cheap Chinese columns, I bit the bullet and purchased a Flaming River 30-inch polished column.

Silly me I thought you unbolt the original column at the mount under the dash, undo the four bolts that hold the mast jacket housing end column, pull out the old one and put the new one in. I cracked that old column open and quickly realized my disconnect. Now, to figure this out.

I get from looking at the new FR column that I will need a universal joint at the end of it, connected to some sort of shaft that then connects to...???

Should I be leaving the end of the original steering shaft along with the steering box components alone? Am I physically cutting the shaft somewhere? And what attaches to that round end? I guess I'm kinda lost here...
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:33 PM   #2
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

My questions keep piling on the more research I do.

Do I need a rag joint? What's my steering shaft size? Isn't the steering shaft hardened steel? If I need to cut it, how do I do that? Does the mast jacket housing end cover come off of the mast jacket? (I figure it does, otherwise how do you get the mast column removed through the firewall) Is a double-D joint one size only or do I need to be specific on size?
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:39 PM   #3
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

I guess this video sort of helps... need that shaft coming out of steering box, that specific u-joint, another shaft, probably a double-d shaft, and a u-joint that attaches that to the FR column...

https://youtu.be/rFpA7XyoBq8
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:14 PM   #4
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

what steering box are you using?
u-joints and DD shaft are commonly used...but youll need to know what sizes to get..
1st ..determine the spline count of your steering box..if it has splines...not sure what you have..
the other side of the u-joint will need to be 3/4" DD male....then i would use the 1"DD female...this way the shaft will slip..one inside the other...then the upper joint will be 1"DD u-joint...the other side of the u_joint will be whatever the FR shaft is..
rag joint is entirely up to you..youll get a little more vibration without one..ive run without with no issues

i use a grinder with a cutting disc to cut steering shafts

going back and re-reading i think you still have all the stock steering..correct?
if so itll be a good time to upgrade your steering box...does the column tube go into the steering box?..
i would rip it all out ..replace steering box...mount the column where you want it..and then measure for the u-joints and DD shafts
for DD shafts and joints i use borgeson products
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:18 PM   #5
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

Do I need a rag joint

I wouldn't. Use universal joints instead.

What's my steering shaft size?

Measure it. A set of HF digital calipers is less than $15. In a pinch you can wrap a piece of paper around it and measure the circumference with a ruler and divide by 3.1459

Isn't the steering shaft hardened steel?

Probably not

If I need to cut it, how do I do that?


I'd use a cut off wheel in a 4" angle grinder

Does the mast jacket housing end cover come off of the mast jacket?

The shaft got in there so it has to come out. If you are going to use the factory box, suggest you reference the factory manual on how to disassemble the steering box..

To connect the new column to the factory box, I'd suggest that you cut the factory steering shaft and cut it to a double D. To do this, clamp the factory shaft in a vice and grind the double D with a angle grinder, stopping often to check fit. Do the last bit with a file to get a near perfect fit. I've welded universal joints to factory shafts, but it is always a risky proposition with heat on the bearings.

This place sells top quality universal joints and steering shafts-

https://sweetmfg.biz/home.php

Their components are not cheap, but quality if first rate. You can buy chinese versions cheaper. Your choice and your life.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:27 AM   #6
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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Originally Posted by e015475 View Post
Do I need a rag joint

I wouldn't. Use universal joints instead.

What's my steering shaft size?

Measure it. A set of HF digital calipers is less than $15. In a pinch you can wrap a piece of paper around it and measure the circumference with a ruler and divide by 3.1459

Isn't the steering shaft hardened steel?

Probably not

If I need to cut it, how do I do that?


I'd use a cut off wheel in a 4" angle grinder

Does the mast jacket housing end cover come off of the mast jacket?

The shaft got in there so it has to come out. If you are going to use the factory box, suggest you reference the factory manual on how to disassemble the steering box..

To connect the new column to the factory box, I'd suggest that you cut the factory steering shaft and cut it to a double D. To do this, clamp the factory shaft in a vice and grind the double D with a angle grinder, stopping often to check fit. Do the last bit with a file to get a near perfect fit. I've welded universal joints to factory shafts, but it is always a risky proposition with heat on the bearings.

This place sells top quality universal joints and steering shafts-

https://sweetmfg.biz/home.php

Their components are not cheap, but quality if first rate. You can buy chinese versions cheaper. Your choice and your life.
OK, yes, factory original steering box. Eventually I will upgrade to IFS and power steering so just wanted to do this part with the original box for now. I have concern about disassembling the box, it is almost 70 years old, if I disassemble it and it needs rebuilding then I'm really hurting in that I don't want to spend the money for that when I will eventually upgrade anyway. I'm way overdue for buying a digital caliper, guess I will make that a priority, however it's the stock column it should be a standard size shouldn't someone just know what it is? So I have the angle grinder and 4" cutoff wheel, but you're proposing I remove the shaft so I can cut it. What happens then with the mast jacket and the housing end? I picture this open tube... with a shaft coming out of the middle of it... can't be right, dust dirt moisture would get in there. Maybe i'm not seeing something right. But I do see your vision of cutting and grinding down the sides of the steering shaft to make a double D. I could see doing this if I just want to straight-up mate the steering shaft to the end of the new column, but this doesn't seem safe to me, I think I'd feel better about mating the steering column to a U-joint and the using a 6" steering shaft (https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...OrderCalculate) between the two u-joints. I guess I'd need some sort of U-joint on the steering column end just gotta figure out what.

And FYI I do have the manual, which was my first go-to after I removed the housing end and didn't see what I liked. I stopped short when I saw that I was going to need some specialized tools to completely remove the steering box. I mean, I was after replacing the steering column not a complete front end steering and suspension rebuild.

Maybe I can cut and remove the mast column first, take some measurements and cut the shaft while it's still mounted? Maybe I stuff something inside the bottom of the mast column so debris doesn't fall into the box while cutting?

I will have a look at your link for parts and ideas, thank you for a great response, very helpful.
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:59 PM   #7
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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Originally Posted by Livemeyer View Post
OK, yes, factory original steering box. Eventually I will upgrade to IFS and power steering so just wanted to do this part with the original box for now.
i would keep the stock steering for now. upgrade the column when you do the ifs install. you gain nothing by adding the new column to the old box, other than a lot of headache and a lot of work
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:33 PM   #8
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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i would keep the stock steering for now. upgrade the column when you do the ifs install. you gain nothing by adding the new column to the old box, other than a lot of headache and a lot of work
I completely agree - now. I mistakenly thought a new column could just swap in. How wrong I was. I have ordered a new mast column bearing. Since I haven't started to cut up my steering column or remove it, I can put it all back the way it was and do all this stuff later.

I also realize that when I do this I need to get a new mount for the column at the firewall. Flaming River has a generic one for the 2" column, FR20101BLS, https://www.flamingriver.com/index.p...013/FR20101BLS

A previous owner cut up the firewall when the steering column and box were shifted over away from the frame. Pics soon.
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Old 08-01-2019, 05:25 PM   #9
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

it would also suck to do all that work and then find out the steering box is shot.
keep it simple, save the cash for the IFS. drive it in the meantime.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:26 AM   #10
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

if you are using the stock steering box you will:

cut the steering shaft/tube about 3 inches longer than your desired length

then cut just the tube back to the length you want, leaving 3" or so of shaft sticking out.

you will need a bearing to put in the tube to center the shaft and give some support, if I remember your other thread you bought one for the top of the tube, it may work down low on the box.

cut/grind the shaft into a DD shape till a u joint fits it. (pay attention to phasing between the upper and lower u joints, you want the u joints to be "in phase" with each other. this will probably require you to have the steering pointing straight ahead and maybe do the following step first)

install your new column, install a u joint at the bottom. between the two joints install a dd shaft.


on an AD you cannot remove the shaft or the tube from the steering box easily. the cab is actually intended to be lifted off the steering shaft, no I AM NOT KIDDING. if you do it the way I outlined, you can cut the shaft and tube and just pull it through the firewall.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:43 AM   #11
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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if you are using the stock steering box you will:

cut the steering shaft/tube about 3 inches longer than your desired length

then cut just the tube back to the length you want, leaving 3" or so of shaft sticking out.

you will need a bearing to put in the tube to center the shaft and give some support, if I remember your other thread you bought one for the top of the tube, it may work down low on the box.

cut/grind the shaft into a DD shape till a u joint fits it. (pay attention to phasing between the upper and lower u joints, you want the u joints to be "in phase" with each other. this will probably require you to have the steering pointing straight ahead and maybe do the following step first)

install your new column, install a u joint at the bottom. between the two joints install a dd shaft.


on an AD you cannot remove the shaft or the tube from the steering box easily. the cab is actually intended to be lifted off the steering shaft, no I AM NOT KIDDING. if you do it the way I outlined, you can cut the shaft and tube and just pull it through the firewall.
Very helpful! I get it now! So this way I will need only one universal joint, right? Will connect the bottom of steering column that has a double D shaft to a ground-down-into-a-double-d-shape steering shaft.

FYI from my other post I'm glad you remember, I actually didn't buy the mast column bearing because I didn't think I would need it since I was going to replace the column. I can see now how I could buy a new one and use that down low to fill the hole in the mast column.

Actually, re-reading your post I think you say to get the DD shaft and put in between the two u-joints, one at the column and and one at the steering box end. And, considering my steering box was moved 2-3 inches over to make room for SBC exhaust, this would allow my steering column to be aligned straight in the cab and the u-joints can handle the misalignment. Great! Thank you!
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:48 AM   #12
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

no problem.

the desire will be, when you see the price of good u joints, to find cheaper u joints. dont do it. use quality parts, I like borgeson. I just ordered 245 dollars worth of borgeson u joints and a collapsible steering shaft (needed for my application) as a matter of fact. could have saved a lot on shiny chrome versions.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:13 AM   #13
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

post some pics of what you have there. the box was moved over to accommodate the engine? does that not mess with the steering geometry?
the guys nailed it. very knowledgeable boys. been around the block a few times maybe.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:13 AM   #14
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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no problem.

the desire will be, when you see the price of good u joints, to find cheaper u joints. dont do it. use quality parts, I like borgeson. I just ordered 245 dollars worth of borgeson u joints and a collapsible steering shaft (needed for my application) as a matter of fact. could have saved a lot on shiny chrome versions.
Oh man, more money! I gotta say, I wouldn't know the difference between a good and a cheap u-joint, but I'll look into what the normal resellers sell, I'll search Borgeson too. I'm a bit frustrated as I finally got the truck on the road for the summer and I decide to dive into this issue, which took it right off the road again.

At least at this point I haven't cut anything so I can decide to button it back up and fix it later. Irony is purchasing the steering column for $600 but still needing that mast jacket bearing for $25 for that mod. I can opt to install the bearing at the steering wheel end for now and re-use it down the road for this steering mod.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:25 AM   #15
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

or
bolt it back up and find a used box that you can mod while still driving the truck
possibly joedoh may have one, he does S10 swaps on those trucks
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:11 AM   #16
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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or
bolt it back up and find a used box that you can mod while still driving the truck
possibly joedoh may have one, he does S10 swaps on those trucks
I think I'll pass on this option. The big question I had going into this build was how much can I improve before I bite the bullet and spend $$$$ for IFS, to include power steering, rack and pinion, etc. I didn't want to spend money twice, but did want to make improvements while not putting the truck down for weeks or months. The burning question I was battling a few weeks ago was "can I improve the truck with a new steering column without having to buy things again for IFS build." I am finding the answer to be, "yes, sort of." I had been asking if improving to power steering was something that had to wait for the IFS upgrade, and generally the answer was yes.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:31 AM   #17
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

not adding p/s would def contribute a bunch of cash to the ifs swap budget.
don't disassemble the box, work with what you have
let me get this right, you have a new column. it has bearings at both ends like normal finished column would. you just need a wheel to install on it. the issue you want answers for is how to connect it to the steering box, correct?

if you have 3 on the tree shifter remove the linkages, wiring etc so the column is simply sitting in the truck held with the mount to the dash.
recip or zip disc the column several inches higher than you actually need above the box. cut it right off but be careful because there is a shaft inside a tube. the column tube is pressed into the box and the shaft is one long part integral to the gear inside the box so simply cut it off and remove the upper part of the column trough the cab, like normal steering columns would be pulled out.
now you can slip your new column into position and see where you need to cut off the old remaining column stub for best fitment to the new column. mostly the ones I have seen leave a couple of inches above the old box so there is room to work. there is a kit out there somewhere that has a DD u joint and a piece of tape or paper that you would put on the column shaft of the old box and it shows exactly where to grind off the shaft so the new DD u joint will fit perfectly. long story short, get rid of the outer tube as close to the box as possible so it is out of the way, then fix the shaft so a DD ujoint will fit. make sure to line up the new column steering wheel so it is straight ahead and then make sure the steering box is also centered and then do the grind on the old steering box input shaft so the steering wheel lines up centered at the end of the project. then all you need is a ujoint for the bottom of the column, some DD shaft with a slip joint in it and some time to bolt it all up. then the wiring and shifter job. do a google search for a steering shaft kit with slip joint maybe you will luck out. the new column should have a support at the floor and be mounted to the dash at the upper end so there would be no need for a support bearing in the middle of the new column shaft.
again, pics say a thousand words. post up what you are working with a get some better answers that way once we can see the project. lots of these trucks get the same treatment what you are proposing so you are re-inventing the wheel or anything.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:49 PM   #18
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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or
bolt it back up and find a used box that you can mod while still driving the truck
possibly joedoh may have one, he does S10 swaps on those trucks

fat chance

these are the trucks I start with.






I think you would have better steering parts come out of lake michigan
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:16 AM   #19
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

"if I disassemble it and it needs rebuilding then I'm really hurting"

If it does need rebuilding and you don't do it, you really will be hurting.

The cheap way out to support the lower shaft is to measure the shaft and the inner diameter of the tube and put a bearing in there. Where I live, we still have a local bearing supplier that you can walk in with dimensions you need, tell the counter guy what you are going to use it for, and walk out with a bearing. You might try googling 'bearing suppliers near me' and see if there's one where you live. The OD of the bearing is likely 1.75" and the shaft is 0.75", A Chinese bearing should be less than $10. Bearings come in all sorts of 'fits' from interference (must be pressed on) or clearanced (fits loosely over the shaft) and I'd look for one with a couple thou clearance.

The better way to fix it would be to buy a 'column saver' to support the lower shaft' https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-cp175bcs. You can spend a day hunting-down a bearing or buy your way out for $70

Joedoh says -

on an AD you cannot remove the shaft or the tube from the steering box easily. the cab is actually intended to be lifted off the steering shaft, no I AM NOT KIDDING. if you do it the way I outlined, you can cut the shaft and tube and just pull it through the firewall.To get the Ujoint on the factory box shaft

Is it easy enough to remove the steering box with the shaft/tube cut off so you can cut the double D on the bench? Or do you recommend grinding a DD with the box in the truck?

"Oh man, more money! I gotta say, I wouldn't know the difference between a good and a cheap u-joint"

The way to tell is the price, and you get what you pay for. A Borgeson or Sweet will cost 2-3X more than a cheap one on fleabay.

I didn't want to spend money twice Welcome to the world of custom fabrication. For me, spending money twice would be an improvement. Your best bet is to do research here and listen to guys with lots of experience like Joedoh and dsraven
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:55 PM   #20
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

You can remove the shaft out the bottom if you loosen the inner fender and maybe take a header off. On a 235.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:57 AM   #21
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

I would suggest not leaving your wiring in the clamp like that. It will damage those wires.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:47 PM   #22
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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I would suggest not leaving your wiring in the clamp like that. It will damage those wires.
I've used a bike innertube to cushion, and it's a non-moving part. It's only short-term anyway as I will be changing out the column soon.
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:03 AM   #23
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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I've used a bike innertube to cushion, and it's a non-moving part. It's only short-term anyway as I will be changing out the column soon.
Oh and I forgot to mention, the bike innertube was also to take up some slack, when the clamp is fully tightened down around the column it doesn't really clamp on it fully. Maybe it's not the original column?
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:28 AM   #24
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

There is an adjuster bolt and lock nut on the front/bottom on the steering box. It will have a straight slot screwdriver groove on the bolt. loosen the lock nut and tighten the bolt. Someone here can probably give you the exact procedure. It take the play out of the gear in the steering box.
https://www.chevytrucks.org/how-to-a...ering-gearbox/
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:07 AM   #25
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Re: Steering column - I don't know what I'm doing...

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There is an adjuster bolt and lock nut on the front/bottom on the steering box. It will have a straight slot screwdriver groove on the bolt. loosen the lock nut and tighten the bolt. Someone here can probably give you the exact procedure. It take the play out of the gear in the steering box.
https://www.chevytrucks.org/how-to-a...ering-gearbox/
I've had my truck down for about three weeks now doing various work on her. Going to take her for a drive tomorrow. I'll see how the steering responds. I might very well attempt this steering adjustment, could go a long way in tightening up road feel and keeping her driving straight. Thanks!
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