More on EVs from a guy trying to sell them

[sakustoms]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

2019 Volt here;

I ran the numbers and it is about 1/8 the cost for me to operate on electrons rather than gasoline.

K

My son has 2 EVs and we talk about it now and again. I did the math and it would actually be cheaper for me to charge than gasoline but I don't trust the range as of yet, especially the way I drive. lol

Not to mention I don't need another task to perform every day after work. I know I can plug in only when needed but I would be the type to always top off.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by sakustoms

My son has 2 EVs and we talk about it now and again. I did the math and it would actually be cheaper for me to charge than gasoline but I don't trust the range as of yet, especially the way I drive. lol

Not to mention I don't need another task to perform every day after work. I know I can plug in only when needed but I would be the type to always top off.

Our cheap rates start at 7pm. When the clock chimes either my wife or I will be reminded to go plug the car in (aka "Pavlov's EV drivers").

My wife is so frugal she will turn lights off with me sitting in the room. I plugged the car in at 6:54 one day and you would think she was never going to recover financially from that.

K

[sakustoms]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Our cheap rates start at 7pm. When the clock chimes either my wife or I will be reminded to go plug the car in (aka "Pavlov's EV drivers").

My wife is so frugal she will turn lights off with me sitting in the room. I plugged the car in at 6:54 one day and you would think she was never going to recover financially from that.

K

Haha that's great. I wish my daughter and her family, who live with me, were frugal.

[72c20customcamper]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Our cheap rates start at 7pm. When the clock chimes either my wife or I will be reminded to go plug the car in (aka "Pavlov's EV drivers").

My wife is so frugal she will turn lights off with me sitting in the room. I plugged the car in at 6:54 one day and you would think she was never going to recover financially from that.

K

Rates here are the same at 1pm as they are at 1am . No cheap rate my meter just keeps on turning . When electricity was cheap like when my all electric home was built it didn’t matter . But if I were to use my baseboard heat and keep it @65 my monthly bill would be well over $800 in the winter . When it was built maybe 75$ @70 degrees . I had to replace the water heater years ago with a propane unit .

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by dieseldawg142

wow
just don't understand the negativity of americans towards ev's. especially as gearheads, how can you not like something that goes 0-60 in 3 seconds?
not saying you have to buy or like an ev, but their not being shoved down anybody's throat, you can buy an ice car anytime, anywhere. they have their place, just as ice cars have there's.
as a owner and lover of a bbc, i wish they would sell more ev's, if enough get sold, gas loses it's value and the price comes down-simple economics.
for the majority of trips people make everyday (100 miles or less) ev's are fine, want to go further, drive your ice car. i see ev's as a good complement to ice cars, not a replacement
although ev sales are not that great in the us, they are selling very good in the rest of the world, which again, means 20 million less cars today buying gas, meaning more gas for those of us that drive 5 mpg bbc's
i'm not going to debate driving range, battery life or how much pollution is created making ev's cause ice cars are just as if not more dirty, i just don't see the reason for all the negativity, as before, don't like em, don't buy one-easy peasy.
would i buy an ev car? no, i haven't owned a car in close to 40 yrs, i'm a truck guy. but if i had enough money, i would definitely have an ev hummer parked next to the 454 crewcab in my driveway.

I don’t care if it goes 0-60 in a nano second… I’m a life long gear head and EV’s lack overall style and any real cool factor that appeals to me. They are not practical or functional for the area of the USA I live in. Just to get to the nearest large scale airport for example is a 400 mile round trip, with basically no human civilization between point A and B.

You see my Canadian friend, the reason for the distaste of EV’s for the majority of us who don’t want them here in the US starts from our founding, we have a clear history of not liking it when our govt overreaches. This has happened with EV’s on a large scale. If you chose to ignore that I’m happy for you. Apparently there’s still enough red blooded Americans here to let the market decide… for now any way. I do certainly agree they have there place, but not as the ONLY future option we are presented with, which is very much the current plan if you pay attention. Wind and solar ain’t generating the extra power needed for all the charging and the US has been downsizing coal fire plants left and right over the last several years, one of which is less than 5 miles from my house actually. I’ll keep my big ass choppy cam, and have a side of classic American style (or on the case of my 2010 Camaro SS, American and Canadian style), anyone else who wants an EV can gladly have my share of the supply.

[LT7A]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Our cheap rates start at 7pm. When the clock chimes either my wife or I will be reminded to go plug the car in (aka "Pavlov's EV drivers").

My wife is so frugal she will turn lights off with me sitting in the room. I plugged the car in at 6:54 one day and you would think she was never going to recover financially from that.

K

Thanks Keith, that cracked me up. I do respect the frugality, but those 6 minutes will probably not do you in

57TF, good summary!

DieselDawg, thanks for the challenges and the points you made, even if not everybody appreciates how you made them. Mostly stated elsewhere, but here's my own summary to explain why it's such a negative reaction. First, we don't like being told what to do. Second, we don't like the government spending our money to push an agenda. Third, it feels like it is threatening our hobby and a major source of enjoyment. I know I have some concern that gas will not become cheaper and that the government will erode our infrastructure for supplying it in order to further push the agenda. However, the oil lobby is huge. What works in this country is to let people decide for themselves. EVs can make a strong case for their own value, the government doesn't need to do it for them. Many people are going to decide that an EV fits their needs. The strongest change will happen when people buy their second EV and their first one hits the used car market. That will allow people in a different income bracket to experience whatever value the EV can provide for them - no need to try to push it along.

[Rich84]

They make it sound like upgrading our electrical grid will happen in the snap of one's fingers. It's antiquated and insufficient already. It will take more then billions.

[truckster]

My Blazer has cost me $9280 over the last four years - that's the total cost of ownership, including fuel, insurance, maintenance, and no payments. I don't think I can touch that with an EV. Even with the maintenance I'm currently doing (all bearings, seals, and ball joints on the front differential), that's less than my daughter's monthly payment on her 2022 Hyundai hybrid.

[Sicklajoie]

Originally Posted by 72c20customcamper

CT was trying to pass a similar law in ICE vehicles but Gov. Lamont pulled it because it was clear it wasn’t going to pass in the legislature.

And at the press conference they had following this, Howdy Doody (Lamont) was clearly irritated that it wasn't going to pass. He clearly said this isn't over.
Count me in as someone that thinks if someone wants an EV, fine. But don't shove it down our throats.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by dieseldawg142

almost all home chargers i see being installed are 2 phase/240 volt, which pretty much every house has....unless your living in a tent.

"2-phase" is an older term that is no longer used. Homes use single phase electricity. Level II home chargers are 220-240 volt, typically 30 or 40 amps, but can be up to 80 amps if your service panel can handle the extra load and the circuit uses 4-gauge wire.

On the other hand, Superchargers like Tesla has on the highways are 480 volt 3-phase and around 100 amps or more, best I can tell. But I think they currently work only with Teslas.

However, home charging is not the main problem (except for contributing to brown-outs). The problem is what's available out on the highways. We love the southwest, and do a fair amount a traveling from Texas to New Mexico, Arizona, and Colorado. Have to say it's rare to see an EV out on the highways away from the medium to large towns. That's probably different on the coasts, especially the west coast.

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by MikeB

"2-phase" is an older term that is no longer used. Homes use single phase electricity. Level II home chargers are 220-240 volt, typically 30 or 40 amps, but can be up to 80 amps if your service panel can handle the extra load and the circuit uses 4-gauge wire.

On the other hand, Superchargers like Tesla has on the highways are 480 volt 3-phase and around 100 amps or more, best I can tell. But I think they currently work only with Teslas.

However, home charging is not the main problem (except for contributing to brown-outs). The problem is what's available out on the highways. We love the southwest, and do a fair amount a traveling from Texas to New Mexico, Arizona, and Colorado. Have to say it's rare to see an EV out on the highways away from the medium to large towns. That's probably different on the coasts, especially the west coast.

Exactly! For those of you who regularly travel or live in the western US you know there’s very little EVs ever on the roads out side of civilization. Even in the small town I live in it’s pretty rare to see one, not saying there aren’t any, but definitely not many.

[Boog]

Let me ask this. Has the prez replaced HIS mid 60's Vette convertible with an EV yet?

[Stocker]

Originally Posted by Boog

Let me ask this. Has the prez replaced HIS mid 60's Vette convertible with an EV yet?

There you go, asking a question when you already know the answer!

[Ironhorse]

Seriously doubt that the entire DC fleet of armor plated blacked out Suburbans will be replaced by EVs either.

EVs will at some point come about but let it happen as the driving public wants and can AFFORD to purchase such. That and let's be sure our current national electric grid can handle everyone plugging in for a charge at the end of the day. At this point in time we are not there.

[LS short box]

Anyone read about the guy in Canada that bought a Ford Lighting 150 and tried to drive it to MPLS? It didn't go well. Made it part way and then had to abandon the 150 and get a ICE rental of some sort.
The Lighting was somewhere north of 100K.
It was some time this summer or early fall.

[dieseldawg142]

[quote=72c20customcamper;9265725]Where EVs really shine is in city traffic . Their efficiency is at its peak unlike ICE vehicles but their efficiency drops in highway situations . The faster you go the more drain on the battery

"ev's shine in the city"
yes they do..and 80% of Americans live in cities. imagine if even half that number jumped into ev's. oil companies would end up investing in electricity to keep them ridiculous profits they make.....

Originally Posted by 57taskforce

I don’t care if it goes 0-60 in a nano second… I’m a life long gear head and EV’s lack overall style and any real cool factor that appeals to me. They are not practical or functional for the area of the USA I live in. Just to get to the nearest large scale airport for example is a 400 mile round trip, with basically no human civilization between point A and B.

same here, all new cars, ice and ev, have what i call aero-blob stylin' and all the new trucks have the "angry transformer" look. that's why i would take a ev hummer, in my eye it still looks like a truck.
and i get the whole liberty and choice thing as well, but unfortunatley it don't always work like that. trust me, i'm no fan of gov (our gov taxes us on a tax-yes really) but how do you think we ended up with seatbelts or a myrid of other devices implemented to "protect" us from ourselves or "make our lives better". and the US does not have a monopoly on this kind of gov reach.

Originally Posted by LT7A

DieselDawg, thanks for the challenges and the points you made, even if not everybody appreciates how you made them. Mostly stated elsewhere, but here's my own summary to explain why it's such a negative reaction. First, we don't like being told what to do. Second, we don't like the government spending our money to push an agenda. Third, it feels like it is threatening our hobby and a major source of enjoyment. I know I have some concern that gas will not become cheaper and that the government will erode our infrastructure for supplying it in order to further push the agenda. However, the oil lobby is huge. What works in this country is to let people decide for themselves. EVs can make a strong case for their own value, the government doesn't need to do it for them. Many people are going to decide that an EV fits their needs. The strongest change will happen when people buy their second EV and their first one hits the used car market. That will allow people in a different income bracket to experience whatever value the EV can provide for them - no need to try to push it along.

thanks
but i never posted on this thread to challenge anyone. between Canada and the US we have a population close to 400 mil. out of that 400 mil, i would wager less than 10-20 mil do what we do (old trucks and cars, hi perf, etc..) the mass majority only know two things about vehicles-gas pedal and brake pedal. i'm of the opinion we should stop kicking on ev's. these reg joes read all the hate/garbage/no good ev comments and get turned off them. as "caretakers" of old vehicles we should be pushing the virtues of ev's on them-again, more ev's will eventually equal more gas and hopefully lower gas prices. just seems to be alot of mis-information about ev's. the naysayers are always coming up with excuses, but like ANY other product, time and refinement makes it better. all the major car companies have invested serious cash into ev's, and even if there not selling at the numbers they like, i doubt their all going to walk away after all the coin they've put into them. i know in BC last yr, 25% of all new vehicles sold were ev's. and if you want to talk about distance, come up here. you think Texas or New Mexico is big......and we only have about 5 mil people living here, so ya, ev's can work out west, back east, anywhere. just need to get the infrastructure in place, which is not going to happen overnight.
and the reason ev's are selling here? try gassing up the dual twenty tanks on your truck at 6-7 bucks a gal. i read the gas thread and ya, i kinda laugh at you guys complaining about $2, $3 or $4 a gal....would kill for them prices again..

Originally Posted by Rich84

They make it sound like upgrading our electrical grid will happen in the snap of one's fingers. It's antiquated and insufficient already. It will take more then billions.

gotta start somewhere. if you need more more power, buy it from Canada. last year we supplied 90% of the electricity you imported, 56 terrawatts, or enough to power 43 million homes. you already buy 60% of your imported oil from us, why not more electricity- we have tons to spare

and lastly, thank you Keith Seymore for some real world numbers. it does not cost an arm and a leg to run an ev, in fact, didn't you help design or build the Volt?

[CAMAROBOY68SS]

Its funny to look at EV's with a historical lens. When cars were invented EV's were there as well. EV's were a preferred option in cities and towns as they would not scare horses. They still had the base core issues as today - range and charging. Although back then electricity and batteries were new inventions on top of the car being a new invention as well. Now battery tech has greatly improved, the range issues is becoming less of a issue but its funny that its still the same 2 issues as before.

While I am not a EV fan and never will be. As mentioned above in other posts my I have similar complaints with EV's. Lack of infrastructure of actual power production and then actual charging stations. Now I am going from my personal observations and conversations with EV owners around me in the Portland area. Luckily I think we are able to produce enough power to take on a decent amount of charging. The downtown area is the worst for charging. There is little no places to do it, most of the stations in parking garages are in gated areas so no open to the public if you got caught needing a little juice and the few open to public are always in use if they are operating so its a real hassle to charge. Granted there are very few gas stations in the downtown area as well and they charge so much more your not much better off so thats a wash. Most the new housing going in downtown lacks really any parking and maybe one or two spaces for charging. With how the city of Portland works it really just gives the vibe of it being a stop gap to banning any kind of car in downtown because really no money is being invested into more charging options. Its a more local scale of the bigger pushing the cart before the horse.

It also doesn't help peoples concerns over lack of power generation when the head of the government goes to a summit and says he is shutting all the coal power plants down in a certain amount of time and then looking to go after natural gas while not really giving any solution on whats going to fill that massive hole just to make it wash. I think if thats the plan there should be rough idea of a replacement.

I dont think EV will ever catch on mainstream as a true ICE replacement for a daily driver until there is a solid way to recharge a car in roughly the same amount of time as a gas car. I think that is the one of the biggest hang ups for alot of people. Plus if everyone went EV you will not end up saving any money in the long run, because they will just jack the charge rates up since now everyone needs it. Thats just part of the cycle.

[Getter-Done]

Originally Posted by CAMAROBOY68SS

Its funny to look at EV's with a historical lens.

Thats just part of the cycle.

If my wife was to read this,
She would say the same thing to you that she says to me.

You should have been born in the late 1800's

I have studied the Steam Car and Electric car of the early 1900's.

The EV can be build for less than the current price of the ones that are Not being Bought.

There is way to much Involed in the Ev for the average person.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by dieseldawg142

and lastly, thank you Keith Seymore for some real world numbers. it does not cost an arm and a leg to run an ev, in fact, didn't you help design or build the Volt?

Yes - I worked on the GenI Volt launch, specifically export, RHD, Vauxhall and Holden versions.

I drove a series of pre-production and Captured Test Fleet vehicles for a period of about 4 years.

K

[72c20customcamper]

[quote=dieseldawg142;9265860]

Originally Posted by 72c20customcamper

Where EVs really shine is in city traffic . Their efficiency is at its peak unlike ICE vehicles but their efficiency drops in highway situations . The faster you go the more drain on the battery

"ev's shine in the city"
yes they do..and 80% of Americans live in cities. imagine if even half that number jumped into ev's. oil companies would end up investing in electricity to keep them ridiculous profits they make.....

Yup and most live in apartments or homes with no driveways in NYC. Staten Island may be an exception so where pry tell will they plug in ? Crap my sister in law spends an hour every day just finding street parking near her apartment building she lives in Brooklyn . Imagine trying to find a spot to recharge . Maybe in the distant future there will be ample infrastructure but not anytime in the near future. I doubt it even in my lifetime . As it is now they ask people to not use their AC in hot weather and have rolling brownouts constantly in the summer . He fuse panel consists of three Edison fuses and a total of 60 amps she has to turn off things to use the microwave oven this is indicative of most apartment buildings in NYC

Con Edison has a problem with power cable theft as it is now . Imagine the theft of the power cords from unattended charging stations in NYC . People steal garbage cans for gods sake

Wanted to add that owning a car in NYC is the exception not the rule . I know people who never have had a drivers license let alone a car . Most of the traffic is from commuters who live outside the city . Cabs and fleet vehicles would be the perfect candidates for EVs

[MikeB]

Glad I started this thread. It's good to hear opinions from other gearheads. I do want to clarify that I'm not anti-EV; they just won't work me until "range anxiety" is a thing of the past. Also, I just naturally rebel when politicians try to force things on me.

For now I think hybrids are a better choice. And I think car companies that are not "all-in" on pure EVs will do better financially that the ones that are. Having said that, one of the contributors to this thread seems to be against companies making high profits, so maybe the financial health of EV-focused companies is of no concern to him.

[DeadheadNM]

News today:

Ford plans to cut F-150 Lightning production as consumer demand slows

HERE

Ford executives have said they're currently identifying ways to cut production costs of the Lightning and Mustang Mach-E to be more competitive. Doug Field, formerly of Apple and Tesla, is now at Ford, he noted.

Automakers are asking the Biden Administration to ease up on new regulatory changes that could cost Detroit automakers billions as they work to transition to electric vehicles.

"EVs are not catching on — not as hot as they thought they would be just a year ago," McElroy said.

Feds are using CAFE standards as a cudgel and levying large fines against automakers for non-compliance with their diktats. That's not laissez-faire.

[67C10Step]

I am not totally anti-EV, but realize they are not practical for many, many people. Me being one of them. If you have a relatively short drive to and from work and live in an urban or even sub-urban area they would probably be fine. However, for folks that don't fit that model or, like myself, can end up driving hundreds of miles per day they are not practical.

Now, on the electrical generation and supply side there is a complete other story. With many parts of the country already seeing an overtaxed electrical grid there is no way the load of EV's can be supported. On the generation side there is war going on and the consumer is going to come up short. In just my area, there is almost 3000 megawatts scheduled to go offline by 2028 and thus far the replacement has been 700 megawatts of solar. Not to mention, the 3000 gets produced 24 hours a day and the solar does not.

Charging stations will come along with time. There were very few gas stations back when automobiles first came out but the issue is you cannot carry a five gallon can of electrons. I think this is the reason a lot of people are not getting on board right now. Many people do not have access to chargers and getting access to one is a problem. Like was said before, it has to be something as convenient as a fill up is today.

I also believe a lot of the uninformed and miss-informed believe that EV's are going to eliminate the petroleum industry. For all of us that know better, the petroleum industry is NEVER going away in any of our practical lifetimes. Plastics, lubricants, and so many other products are produced from petroleum that are used in not just automobiles there is no way to divorce your everyday life from it.

The problem is the government forcing a technology that is not practical for everyone. Like MikeB, I believe the hybrid technology is the superior choice at this point. Balance between fuel economy, range, and ability to refuel.

[truckster]

Originally Posted by 67C10Step

Like MikeB, I believe the hybrid technology is the superior choice at this point. Balance between fuel economy, range, and ability to refuel.

I've wondered what my wife's Highlander Hybrid would sound like with a Magnaflow exhaust...

[62c30]

I don't have an issue with plugging in a vehicle, started about 6 years ago.