Plumbing for Ethanol

[LostMy65]

I've been reading up.
There are threads scattered among year specific areas of these forums, but I figured it really fits better here.
.
Anyway, I want to change out my lines for something ethanol compatible.
I liked this post:

Originally Posted by hatzie

If you intend to run E85 on a flex fuel LS then you should run Nylon and steel fuel lines. Rubber just isn't going to last and AN hoses aren't necessary anymore because there's Nylon line repair tooling and parts available now to Joe Q Public.

Dorman makes reasonable nylon fuel line and push-loc end fittings. You can find it on Amazon.

Tooling for Nylon lines is becoming more available. Again even on Amazon. Dorman 800-301, the compact KTI 75305, or the larger KTI 75300 to insert the female push lock sockets into your nylon fuel line. Folks have made some home brew tooling but the Dorman or KTI tools are less than $100 each.

The push lock steel tube ends can be formed using a Mastercool hydraulic flare tool with the GM fuel line dies to make the push lock tube ends. The Mastercool 72485 Universal Hydraulic Flare Tool set has push lock GM fuel line and transmission line forming dies along with Metric ISO bubble and 45° Metric and SAE double flares in a nice blow molded HDPE case. This is a very high quality professional grade tool with a pretty comprehensive die set that is well worth the $320 price tag. I own one and I would not like to go back to the cheap screw-thread tooling for brake, transmission, and fuel lines.
This Universal set doesn't seem to have the British 37° double flares so if you are working on antique British cars... Rolls Royce, Morgan, Austin Healey, Vauxhall, MG, or Bentley you may need to buy some additional dies. You'll also need Whitworth (British Standard) thread tools for those odd Brit bolts...

[sweetk30]

my BUDGET BEATER build in the 4x4 section here http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=755514

i just did the nylon line stuff for my holley sniper since i dont want AN fittings / hose living in the north east rust belt .

stupid easy to play with and make up .

i will also be doing my short bed 2wd truck in nylon for the ls swapped in it .

[LostMy65]

Originally Posted by sweetk30

my BUDGET BEATER build in the 4x4 section here http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=755514

i just did the nylon line stuff for my holley sniper since i dont want AN fittings / hose living in the north east rust belt .

stupid easy to play with and make up .

i will also be doing my short bed 2wd truck in nylon for the ls swapped in it .

Perfect, thank you.
I'm running a Fitech.

[sweetk30]

red horse racing products makes the adapter fitting to go from AN o-ring seat to lots of comon fuel line options .

i used these 2 my self . https://www.redhorseperformance.com/...n-efi-adapters

812-06-06-2 for 3/8" and 812-06-05-2 for 5/16" both in black to match my sniper color .

and i have had a master cool flair kit like you linked for over 15+ years before you could buy them from even a tool truck guy . . . . LOVE that tool . made tons of money with it and saved lots of hours of fighting with line problems .

[truckdude239]

I just used pfte braided hose for mine but i used an fittings

[LostMy65]

Originally Posted by sweetk30

my BUDGET BEATER build in the 4x4 section here http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=755514

i just did the nylon line stuff for my holley sniper since i dont want AN fittings / hose living in the north east rust belt .

stupid easy to play with and make up .

i will also be doing my short bed 2wd truck in nylon for the ls swapped in it .

Pics from your thread:
.
What did you use for the nylon lines?
.

[sweetk30]

the nylon line they sell in 10ft / 25ft / 50ft rolls .

on my 80's long bed truck i used what was included in the master tool kit to get you started. i had just the amount i needed . but i hit my local parts store and got a 25ft of both 3/8" & 5/16" to have on hand .

3/8" = dorman # 800-071
5/16" = dorman # 800-072
both 25ft roll.

with my exhaust on left from factory if i had to redo my fuel system over i would do pass side tank for 2 reasons .

1st = same length lines made / used .

2nd = all newer vehicles are basicly going euro based and pass side filler at the gas pumps .

but oh well i did driver as all the years i have been driving these trucks i have had driver side tank so why change it now . my 2nd pass side tank is a 20gal transfer to the driver side . i didnt do switcher valve setup .

[LostMy65]

Thanks again.

[LostMy65]

Found this video :
https://youtu.be/_gJcniEcuzg

[sweetk30]

ya thats for the newer style conectors . but same idea .

and i have never needed heat gun .

[LostMy65]

How tough is that nylon line?
Should it be wrapped in braid for protection?

[87Skier]

When I did an engine swap I figured I would plumb it for ethanol based fuels.

I ended up using steel fittings on the tank and bringing that to the front left corner of the tank. From there I used all nylon. I recommend using a heat gun or a little bit or oil/atf. If the nylon is cold, it is a lot harder to the get the line completely on.

I used a clamp every 18" or so, and put a braided heat-resistance sleeve where the fuel line goes over the exhaust to connect to the fuel rail. After a year and about 7000 miles, I was under my truck and checked most of the line. Everything has held up well and there are so signs of abrasion on the nylon.

[LostMy65]

I've been searching the forums for more threads about this.
I'm finding more threads about this in the 'LS Swap' section of these forums.
.
Here's one with pics:

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ighlight=Nylon

[LH Lead-Foot]

Depending on the use of ethanol at 10% or up to 85% changes in the fuel system is different. Ethanol up to 15% or some places 20% is usually ok in any normal fuel system. If the plans are to go with E85, then fuel lines have to be a stainless steel alloy, different fuel pump and two methods of detecting what is in the tank is required by the PCM.
Fuel Lines;
E85 requires either nylon with stainless alloy components. E10-E15 does not.
Fuel Pump;
E85 uses a fuel pump with non-copper commutator contacts (Photo below)
PCM Detection;
Two designs have been used. The first was an expensive ethanol sensor the measure the ethanol percentage and temperature. These signals are automatic and required no changes in driving habits. Used first, then abandoned for software only detection, then went back to a sensor.

The software version detects a re-fueling event of 2 gallons or more upon re-start. No action is required by the driver if E10. If E85 is added to regular fuel, it requires the vehicle to be driving to engine temp and road speed for about 4-7 miles to allow the fuel in the lines to reach the combustion chamber & O2 sensors. The PCM would make adjustments to the on time of the injectors to allow for the mix of gas & ethanol. This fell out of favor because no one followed or was told about the driving requirements after refueling with E85 when E10 or less was in the tank... This caused at lot of headaches at the dealer and a TSB was issued with a J-Tool to measure ethanol percentages.
Todays systems use a sensor to accurately measure the ethanol content allowing use on vehicles with return-type fuel systems and return-less systems. Why return-less? Heat is pickup by the fuel thru the engines fuel rail, road heat transferred into the tank and some exhaust heat adds to higher temps. The higher temperatures of fuel produce more fumes and require a much larger carbon canister that was unreasonable.

Note: The pump on the right is for E85 and the left, fuels up to E15. This is what they call "Robust" fuel pumps, while "Low lubricity" referred to changes in the sending unit and did not use silver compounds on the resistive ceramic card. They where sensitive too high sulphur compounds in the fuel. Low sulphur fuel is regulated and required for over two decades now and adds to the cost of fuel, including Diesel.

E10 is mixed at the distribution stations and are received by rail or tanker. The ethanol is diluted with gasoline at the distillery to avoid ATF taxes. This is the term of de-naturing comes from.
It is too corrosive to run in existing pipelines and has to be moved over the road or rail. I have seen mixing mistakes at the supplier before delivered to the gas station in the early 80's. In vehicles that do not used E85, this causes all kinds of problems. I still have the J-tool designed to sample fuel and read out in frequency. E85 is less dense and causes the frequency to drop. I met shops who spent days trying to diagnose this problem as people who do not pay attention, fill up with E85 because it's cheaper or not paying attention.

If you plans are to run only E10 - E15 in your area, you should be fine. Many engineers say that nylon fuel line will become brittle over time much quicker with the use of higher ethanol % fuels.

Those of us who worked on imports with "CIS" injection system had similar tools to install nylon piping onto metal fittings and injectors in the early 80's.
Same principle, only different sizes.

[hjewell2]

Originally Posted by LH Lead-Foot

Depending on the use of ethanol at 10% or up to 85% changes in the fuel system is different. Ethanol up to 15% or some places 20% is usually ok in any normal fuel system. If the plans are to go with E85, then fuel lines have to be a stainless steel alloy, different fuel pump and two methods of detecting what is in the tank is required by the PCM.
Fuel Lines;
E85 requires either nylon with stainless alloy components. E10-E15 does not.
Fuel Pump;
E85 uses a fuel pump with non-copper commutator contacts (Photo below)
PCM Detection;
Two designs have been used. The first was an expensive ethanol sensor the measure the ethanol percentage and temperature. These signals are automatic and required no changes in driving habits. Used first, then abandoned for software only detection, then went back to a sensor.

The software version detects a re-fueling event of 2 gallons or more upon re-start. No action is required by the driver if E10. If E85 is added to regular fuel, it requires the vehicle to be driving to engine temp and road speed for about 4-7 miles to allow the fuel in the lines to reach the combustion chamber & O2 sensors. The PCM would make adjustments to the on time of the injectors to allow for the mix of gas & ethanol. This fell out of favor because no one followed or was told about the driving requirements after refueling with E85 when E10 or less was in the tank... This caused at lot of headaches at the dealer and a TSB was issued with a J-Tool to measure ethanol percentages.
Todays systems use a sensor to accurately measure the ethanol content allowing use on vehicles with return-type fuel systems and return-less systems. Why return-less? Heat is pickup by the fuel thru the engines fuel rail, road heat transferred into the tank and some exhaust heat adds to higher temps. The higher temperatures of fuel produce more fumes and require a much larger carbon canister that was unreasonable.

Note: The pump on the right is for E85 and the left, fuels up to E15. This is what they call "Robust" fuel pumps, while "Low lubricity" referred to changes in the sending unit and did not use silver compounds on the resistive ceramic card. They where sensitive too high sulphur compounds in the fuel. Low sulphur fuel is regulated and required for over two decades now and adds to the cost of fuel, including Diesel.

E10 is mixed at the distribution stations and are received by rail or tanker. The ethanol is diluted with gasoline at the distillery to avoid ATF taxes. This is the term of de-naturing comes from.
It is too corrosive to run in existing pipelines and has to be moved over the road or rail. I have seen mixing mistakes at the supplier before delivered to the gas station in the early 80's. In vehicles that do not used E85, this causes all kinds of problems. I still have the J-tool designed to sample fuel and read out in frequency. E85 is less dense and causes the frequency to drop. I met shops who spent days trying to diagnose this problem as people who do not pay attention, fill up with E85 because it's cheaper or not paying attention.

If you plans are to run only E10 - E15 in your area, you should be fine. Many engineers say that nylon fuel line will become brittle over time much quicker with the use of higher ethanol % fuels.

Those of us who worked on imports with "CIS" injection system had similar tools to install nylon piping onto metal fittings and injectors in the early 80's.
Same principle, only different sizes.

Awesome write up and great info, thank you..

[LostMy65]

There's a few guys out there that concocted their own tool and just bought the tubing and connections they needed. The $200+ kit is more than I want to pay right now, so I'll probably try the same.

[toolboxchev]

What a PITA!

I am staying old school performance, its easier on the bank account!

For now.....

[LostMy65]

https://youtu.be/UvS_D4_lF5U

[LH Lead-Foot]

Too Much Information about Ethanol; Don't Read!

I will never tell someone to "NOT" use E85, but I have certain issues with it. To keep the math simple, say it sells for 30% cheaper than E10. The problem is, you burn 30% more to get the same power, so the tanks empties quicker. It is a wash with no loss or gain in the wallet, just has an extra molecule of oxygen in the combustion chamber and is slightly cleaner out the tailpipe, better anti-knock values (M+R) divided by 2 = Octane
(ASTM Motor testing / ASTM research Values / Average, on fuel pumps by law)
They promote certain seed verities to farmers, who sign a contract to provide all of this corn to the local distillery..ah, I mean ethanol producer. The corn contains higher amounts of carbohydrates that is needed to make white lightning...ah, I mean ethanol.
The house power and torque comes in at 100% ethanol is used like racing. To date, no mass produced vehicles are certify to use 100% ethanol as that would require large bore injectors, resulting in a reduced full tank range if driving far.

Even though I prefer my ethanol aged inside charred oak barrels, I don't like the hard earned tax dollar usage. Yep, ethanol producers earn a 51 cents tax credit for each gallon while imported ethanol from Brazil are charged a 52 cent tariff. (Note: Rolled back 6 cents in 2008 Farm Bill) This protects the US ethanol industry, contracts and farmers. They cannot sell this corn for purposes other than animal feed or corn squeezings. This wipes out most state and federal gas taxes, to be used on roads and bridges. Right? Ha,Ha. Fooled again.

Now in Brazil, you gas pump can pump any amount or percentage or ethanol you want, but their ethanol comes from sugar cane. My problem is the engird used to grind the corn into mash, heat it to help convert carbohydrates then more heat again is used during distilling process. Plus, farmers use more synthetic fertilizer and herbicides than regular corn as food corn has been designed and treated.

Oh well, I told you TMI. But if I had my way, I would use "Butanol" (C4 Hydrocarbon) if I remember right. It is a drop in fuel in any vehicle. It is harder to produce, yield is less, but produces more horse power than ethanol, higher Octane values and is not corrosive like ethanol. It is made using 4 different ways. Although CNG has been in fleet vans since the 80's, more equipment, heater to keep from freezing at the regulator, second set of injectors in some cases, switches with a push button and no black or dark engine oil. Super clean inside any ICE.

Just info for those who want to learn. Won't help the thread, but perhaps interesting.

[LostMy65]

I've been doing what I can to only use fuel without ethanol. But I'm thinking it may eventually be inevitable.
More ideas for what to use?
Stainless steel may be expensive, but will it last forever?

[LostMy65]

What about going to a pick-n-pull yard and pulling the lines and tank off a newer model vehicle?

[Greasey Harley]

Such an old thread...
Oh well, since we're here, I'll add my $.02.

A lot of good information here. I have had great results replacing all old rubber fuel lines with Gates Barricade fuel hose, It's reasonably inexpensive, requires no special tools and is a direct replacement.
Bonus points: It works, Napa carries it, O'Reilly does too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpE7fzS_fw

https://www.google.com/search?safe=o...4dUDCAo&uact=5

[LostMy65]

Originally Posted by Greasey Harley

Such an old thread...
Oh well, since we're here, I'll add my $.02.

What's wrong with posting in an on topic thread?
Is it better have seven threads on the same topic?

[Greasey Harley]

Originally Posted by LostMy65

What's wrong with posting in an on topic thread?
Is it better have seven threads on the same topic?

I didn't say anything was wrong with it. Just making an observation.I wasn't trying to offend anyone. sorry.

I do recommend Barricade fuel line for ethanol blended fuel.

[LostMy65]

Okay, thanks.
Sorry for taking offense.