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Old 05-26-2019, 06:44 PM   #1
CG
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Auto vs manual costs ...

I want to upgrade a stock auto K10 SWB to a 700R4 Auto which I already have. But what I would really like is to change to later five speed manual. Ive been reading about the manual trans and the amount of info here is mind boggling. There is even a thread meant to dumb it down some which I thought was still mind boggling lol.

I know costs vary in different parts of the country, but can I get a general idea of what I would pay for the correct 4500 to mate up with an NP205?

It doesn't seem like there is a direct bolt on situation for this set up ... Like I said, mind boggling.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:29 PM   #2
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

the biggest initial expense will be the nv...they are getting hard to find and most of the time if you do find one, its a gamble with the unknown history behind it,,,and rebuilt ones arnt cheap either...engine to trans are some more getting hard to find parts...there again ,aftermarket stuff is $$$....then youll need driveshaft work...aside from all that I really like my 5spds
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:08 PM   #3
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

What year truck are we talking about? 85-87 had the hydraulic clutch pedal setup. That will be a big factor in the conversion.
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:06 AM   #4
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunSoaked View Post
What year truck are we talking about? 85-87 had the hydraulic clutch pedal setup. That will be a big factor in the conversion.

Oops sorry, I forgot this part of the board doesn't have a year designation.
1971.
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:20 AM   #5
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Seems like folks are just pulling out and throwing away SM465's .....

I really doubt you would see that much difference in gas mileage, and anyway it would probably take a long time to recoup vs the extra costs of buying/fitting a 4500.

I wish now I had converted my 1973 K-20 from TH350 to SM465 instead of trading it off.
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Old 05-27-2019, 12:54 PM   #6
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Not looking for gas mileage. Just looking to upgrade over the stock stuff. I was thinking going back to manual just for the heck of it and wanted to have a newer unit.

Last edited by CG; 05-27-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 05-27-2019, 01:18 PM   #7
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CG View Post
Not looking for gas mileage. Just looking to upgrade over the stock stuff. I was thinking going back to manual just for the heck of it.
Well, then it would probably be a lot easier and cheaper to go with a conversion to a manual transmission that actually came in that year of pickup. Should be lots of junkyard factory parts to be found. Hardest part will probably be setting up a clutch pedal and linkage since your pickup doesn't have any of that (assuming you have the TH350 now ?).
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Old 05-27-2019, 02:43 PM   #8
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

I have all the inside the cab pedal assemblies I need. No matter what I wont be using the stock auto and I have no desire to go to the stock manual.

So Ill be rebuilding my 700R4 and having to modify it to fit with the NP205. If the cost to moving to manual isn't a ton more than dealing with the 700R4 that's the route I would like to go.

From what I have read on the board so far ... Going to modern manual isn't going to be worth the money invested to do something just because I feel like it =) Unless someone has different info than Ive gathered so far.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:06 PM   #9
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

hanging a NV behind a LS is not cheap..ive got close to 3gs invested in my NV....all brand new or newly rebuilt stuff though..so its defiantly not a cheap way to go...when I did my 1st one I looked all over for factory parts to do the swap..they are nonexistent in my area..
but starting with nothing and going with a modern 4l or 6l auto wasn't going to be but just a little cheaper
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:55 AM   #10
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Mating a NV4500 to a 205 can be done a couple of ways. Main factor is which version of the 205 to you have? figure eight mounting pattern to the t-case adapter or the more modern 6 bolt round pattern? Also depending on the trans you are coming from the spline count on the input is different. The TH350's and 700r4's have a 27 spline output where the TH400, 4L80e and NV4500 have the 32 spline output.

Changing the input in the 205 to get the 32 spline input is pretty easy. ORD could set you up with that pretty quickly.

Depending on the T-case mounting style you have will make the biggest influence on what you do to mate them up. The figure 8 style can only be mated by using the Advance adapter housing. It replaces the stock output housing which also contains the 5th gear and synchro. You end up cutting some where close to 3"-4" off the stock output shaft and replace the problematic 5th gear retaining nut with a split collar the bolts over the shaft.

The better option and the one that does not require the output housing/shaft modifications is to find a 6 bolt round pattern 205 case. They were used up to 1991 and are otherwise similar to the earlier figure 8 cases. That case will bolt right up to a 4500 without modifications.

Next issue comes down to Clutch type. All 4500s used a hydraulic clutch. The issue here is the early gmt400 trucks that used these transmissions had a external slave that was on the passenger side of the engine since those trucks had a driver's side drop t-case vs the earlier solid axle GM trucks that had all been driver side drop t-cases. Guys have made them work, but there isn't much room for the slave and the front driveshaft at full stuff on that side. The next option is the integrated slave style 4500 that had no external slave but a more modern integrated slave/throwout bearing that eliminates the need for an external slave. No issues with the passenger side driveline but will require getting the plumbing for the line to match up with a 84 to 91 clutch master and line.

I didn't happen to notice which engine you had for the 71, but since the 4500 came behind conventional small blocks and the later LS engines you just get what you need based on the engine. Gen 1 small blocks just need a flywheel that can handle an 11-12" clutch which is very standard and not hard to get. People don't always remember that the NV4500 was an option for 3/4 ton and 1 ton GMT800 trucks with a 6.0 L for few years. Rare for sure, but it's the way to get the right thickness flywheel to deal with the difference in the amout of the crank sticking out the block which is less than the Gen 1 small block. They were 10 spline inputs like always. So all you need to do is spec out a flywheel for a 2002 3/4 ton Chevy or GMC with a 6.0 and a 5 speed. Also order the clutch based on that and which version of the 4500 you have.

I'm swapping to a 4500 when I do my 8.1 swap in my 91. I'm planning on using a later style 4500 with the integral throwout bearing. The most difficult part of that will be the clutch pipe plumbing.
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:57 AM   #11
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Almost forgot a third option for the clutch. That's using an advanced adapters bellhousing. It uses stock Squarebody hydro clutch parts. But like all things AA, it's not cheap.
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:04 AM   #12
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

the advance adapters bellhousing for the NV has the old school mechanical clutch arm on the drivers side
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:17 AM   #13
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongocanfly View Post
the advance adapters bellhousing for the NV has the old school mechanical clutch arm on the drivers side
Sure does, but they sell the bracket for the squarebody slave cylinder to actuate the clutch. Both of Larry's 8.1/nv4500 trucks use the AA bell with squarebody hydraulic clutch components.
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:29 AM   #14
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

I saw those AA slaves when I did my 81 C30...but i used my bell crank system from the sm465...in the end I kinda wish I'd gone hydralic... would have been easier to find headers that would clear..
on the 57 IH I opted to go hydralic... but I used all wilwood on it..I kinda homebrewed it...I'm thinking its gonna be smoother than linkages..havnt driven yet,but sitting in the seat pushing clutch pedal it feels good..
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:14 AM   #15
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

There is also the divorced option (no not from your wife - guys like us don't get off that easy and we certainly don't get a cool transmission of our choice for doing so!). Dodge 205 and an NV 2wd unit that was considerably cheaper than a 4wd unit when I got mine. Support for the 205 can come from the donor truck.

2wd units don't seem to have the 5th gear nut backing off thing going on either.

Think I have 200 in the t case. 800 + the rebuild in the 4500. 350 - 400 in the AA adapter BH. Lots of making things work.

FWIW, try to pull one out of a truck that drives (so you know it works) instead of from a guy in a full leg cast that drives down from Redding in his K5 to deliver.

I think the 2wd units may be a little more available still.

It was a tedious install but with a little ingenuity and determination, wasn't too bad on the pocketbook. Don't spill the gear oil because that's the stuff that is expensive!

The AA Adapter is pricey. Nuff said there. Hydro clutch was an easy decision and works really well. If you get the heavy duty "tall" pressure plate (like a Valeo or Hays) you will have to do a little grinding to the inside of the bell housing. Not much (maybe and 1/8" about 10" long) but worth mentioning. Run a Centerforce clutch and you'll have no issues but will pay more $$$.

I ditched a poor shifting, slipping, rode hard and put away wet TH400 for the NV and do not regret it for a second. It has OD which the 400 didn't have and it shifts like a Porsche compared to the 465 that I had in the '64. It did great behind a 396 and is doing fine with the 454 now.

IIRC, the later LS style has an even more street friendly 1st gear and full synchro reverse which is kinda cool.

I regularly haul well beyond what I'd feel comfortable doing with a 700r4. If I had to go auto, Id have to bite the bullet for a 4L80.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:33 PM   #16
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Just a rough idea on price. Have casually looked for a nv4500 to replace my sm465. I would be mounting it to a np208, which was standard with either the sm465 or the nv4500.

In my case, I'd need just a bell, tranny, and a hydraulic throwout. If these parts came up for less than $1200, that'd be very cheap. Shouldn't take too long of a search to find them for $1800. Of course, all of that would be used.

A cheaper option is to somehow utilize a 2wd tranny. These require switching the rear housing and the output shaft. Total parts cost for a seal kit, a new shaft, and a new housing is somewhere in the 400 dollar range. I've seen a 2wd tranny with a cracked bell listed for $400, and the guy can't seem to move it. It's just one more project that I don't want to tackle right now, so I'll pass on that one.

Another way of cheapening the cost, is to find a tranny without a bellhousing. I'm told the 621 bell can be made to fit a nv4500. supposedly, several of the bell-to-tranny bolts are installed from the inside of the bell, and are drilled and tapped into the tranny housing. This might actually be the best way, if you have easy access to a 85-87 driver's side external slave bellhousing. This would allow you to use a factory slave setup, easily clear the passenger side driveshaft, and avoid the trouble of an internal slave.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:45 PM   #17
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kipps View Post
Just a rough idea on price. Have casually looked for a nv4500 to replace my sm465. I would be mounting it to a np208, which was standard with either the sm465 or the nv4500.

In my case, I'd need just a bell, tranny, and a hydraulic throwout. If these parts came up for less than $1200, that'd be very cheap. Shouldn't take too long of a search to find them for $1800. Of course, all of that would be used.

A cheaper option is to somehow utilize a 2wd tranny. These require switching the rear housing and the output shaft. Total parts cost for a seal kit, a new shaft, and a new housing is somewhere in the 400 dollar range. I've seen a 2wd tranny with a cracked bell listed for $400, and the guy can't seem to move it. It's just one more project that I don't want to tackle right now, so I'll pass on that one.

Another way of cheapening the cost, is to find a tranny without a bellhousing. I'm told the 621 bell can be made to fit a nv4500. supposedly, several of the bell-to-tranny bolts are installed from the inside of the bell, and are drilled and tapped into the tranny housing. This might actually be the best way, if you have easy access to a 85-87 driver's side external slave bellhousing. This would allow you to use a factory slave setup, easily clear the passenger side driveshaft, and avoid the trouble of an internal slave.
There have been a couple of guys that used a hydro 465 bell, redrilled for an nv4500 on CK5. That has been done to mixed results. The hyper-critical thing is getting the holes placed exactly in the right spot to keep the input shaft in the same centerline as the crankshaft. One guy didn't get it right and had issues with binding and having the bolts back out from the bell housing to the transmission. Major pain since he had to run the bolts from the inside of the bell back toward the transmission. Meaning to fix the loose bolts the trans had to come out as they are not accessible.

I'm taking a different route with my 4500 swap. I'm using a later version of the 4500 with the integrated slave/throwout bearing. This uses a different bell that eliminates the linkage issues with the standard squarebody hydraulic clutch parts when using the AA bell. It's going to require adapting the hydraulic line, but that is pretty doable. The hose comes out on the correct side for a square vs the early GMT400/nv4500 bell with the external slave on the passenger side.

The earlier idea noted for the divorced option is great if you got the wheelbase to handle it. For us K5 or short box K10's, we can't afford to lose rear driveshaft length at all. But you long box or Suburban guys would have the room for it.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:58 AM   #18
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomad75 View Post
The hyper-critical thing is getting the holes placed exactly in the right spot to keep the input shaft in the same centerline as the crankshaft.
I was told the input shaft retainer was the critical item for centering the transmission. Since the nv4500 and the sm465 had the same size retainer, and would fit snugly in each other's bells, the bolts only needed to hold it together.

I know what you mean though, about those bolts being inaccessible. So far, I've had the best luck mounting the bell, and then installing the tranny. The time I tried to install a bell and tranny together, didn't go so well.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:32 PM   #19
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Mark I’ve done this and currently have the parts for another set up. Not sure I’m using them or not. Let me know if your interested.
Here’s the way to go...
Any year chev 4wd NV4500 if it’s hydraulic internal bell housing slave which ,most are then install an earlier front bearing retainer which accommodates the mechanical throw out bearing, the front case will need to be redrilled for it but that is easy. Then use stock mechanical clutch linkage.
Find a round pattern NP205 switch the input to short 32 spline (they are long from the factory) and it will bolt right up to the 4wd NV4500.
I bought my trans off Facebook and have seen others local to us. I have seen a few round NP205 on there too.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:53 PM   #20
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoomad75 View Post

The earlier idea noted for the divorced option is great if you got the wheelbase to handle it. For us K5 or short box K10's, we can't afford to lose rear driveshaft length at all. But you long box or Suburban guys would have the room for it.
Excellent point. I missed the SWB part entirely.
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'63 k15 long step
Vortec 7.4 - L29 Blackbear tune, Five 0 Motorsports injectors, Chris Straub Cam, NV4500, divorced 205
52" front and 63" rear spring swap
D44 / 14bff - disc axles
Milemarker 9K and 10.5K hydraulic winches

63" & B52 Spring Install http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ng+swap+thread


NV4500 Reverse Build Thread http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=reverse+build

L29 - 7.4 Vortec Build http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...&highlight=L29
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:28 PM   #21
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Re: Auto vs manual costs ...

Im a backyard mechanic at best. As much as Id like this set up it really looks like its going to be very expensive and more fab than my skill level can handle. Ill probably just end up using the stock t350 trans. I sold all my 3/4 ton running gear and the 700R4 that was a part of that package. I also sold/traded my inside the cab clutch assembly.

You guys that hang on this part of the board have some very impressive fab skills!
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