No Limit Trailing Arm Rear Suspension

[gringoloco]

Originally Posted by crakarjax

Is that a shallow notch compared to CPP or is the center section just longer?

Appears to be shallower. I guess the NL notch is in production?

Originally Posted by SMKN TA 95

Is Hotchkis the only rear anti roll bar that works with the No Limit trailing arm setup? I thought I read before that the No Limit rear anti roll bar setup won't work?

Curious on this, too. Hotchkis is nice, but spendy. I don't think the standard NL bar will fit with the coilovers.

[robnolimit]

OK, YES, the No Limit notch is 'shallower' or - not as deep - as some others. This is on purpose. With this depth, and a 1/2" bump stop, when the axle tube hits the bump, the top of the diff housing will be 1/4" from the bed floor. So, any more notch would A) needlessly weaken the frame rail, and/or B) require a bubble or tunnel in the bed floor to clear the diff housing. Since this notch was developed with "stock rails" in mind, we decided to match that idea with a "stock bed floor" concept.

As for the rear bar on our Trailing Arm kit, we are still set up to use the Hotchkis bar, if desired. Now, Autocross testing has yielded faster laps with-out the bar. The normal street driving, even on the Dragon, is more comfortable with-out the bar. But, high speed open-track laps are faster with the bar. **Factor in here 200 TW tires and some Aero to get them to stick, otherwise, no bar is a better choice.

[crakarjax]

I like the shallow notch in that it gives people another unique option.

Re: sway bar, that's not what I expected! Any idea why autox is faster with no rear bar?

[robnolimit]

Auto-X (OK, Fast Auto-X) is probably the hardest challenge for your suspension/tires than anything else (ON-road competition) we see higher shock and spring rate changes than anything else. Honestly, many Auto-X'ers have surpassed the G force loads of a lot of road racers, it's just that on an Auto-X coarse, the 'time' of the G event is much shorter. The 'violence' of the tire loading is much harsher. So, allowing the body to roll a bit more (still with the rate controlled by the shock) slows down the rate of tire loading and allows the tire to get a grip for a bit longer.

[crakarjax]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Auto-X (OK, Fast Auto-X) is probably the hardest challenge for your suspension/tires than anything else (ON-road competition) we see higher shock and spring rate changes than anything else. Honestly, many Auto-X'ers have surpassed the G force loads of a lot of road racers, it's just that on an Auto-X coarse, the 'time' of the G event is much shorter. The 'violence' of the tire loading is much harsher. So, allowing the body to roll a bit more (still with the rate controlled by the shock) slows down the rate of tire loading and allows the tire to get a grip for a bit longer.

Whoa whoa whoa, ok but in your 'make it handle' thread you said


"There are a lot of concepts out there about handling. Here is one thing i see a lot at Auto-x and track events. The problem is that the car (truck) is loose through the corner. The solution is to disconnect the rear sway bar. ?what? I see this all the time. OK, I get it the first time, but this is backwards."

"Having a low roll center will produce a good 'bite' in and out of a corner, but it produces more body roll. So, a combo of a low panhard rod and a light sway bar will give you great results."

"Try to keep the swaybars close in size. 1 1/4" front with 1 1/8" rear is good for more streetable trucks, 1 1/2" front with 1 1/4" rear for more aggressive handling."

"Swaybars. GO BIG, but keep the back within 1/4" of the front."

"Lets get back to the main topic, HANDLING. One of the best upgrades you can do is swaybars. Swaybars, or Anti-roll bars, work by adding traction (downforce) to the outside tire. To do this, the swaybar has to take downforce away from the inside tire. So if you think about it, you can go 'too big' on the bars. If you went so stiff that the inside tire lifts off the ground, then that tire isn't helping at all. The balance between the front and rear bars is called "roll couple", and here's where a truck layout changes normal thought. In a normal performance car, with say 52% front weight and a low CG, the roll couple needs to be up around 80% (calc for this is really complex, so think of this as a comparison number), but in a truck, with 58% front weight and a higher CG, you aqctually need to move the roll couple BACK, maybe to 65%. This means that in comparison to a Camaro that would run a 1 1/4" front and a 7/8" rear, the truck would tend to 'need' a more evenly matched bar set. Say 1 1/4" front and 1 1/8" rear. Most retailers/manufacturers are missing this and selling bar sets in 'car' sizing, so be carefull. "

"Last weekend in Pleasonton, I was explaining this to a few people and most believed that a smaller rear bar would help the truck turn, do to the added cross weight from the inside rear to the outside front - as the truck leans over. So, I pulled one of the rear swaybar links on our 55, effectively it had no rear bar. The truck pushed like crazy, and on the second lap, I spun out trying to throttle steer it through a corner. Bad outcome, but it was a good demonstration of swaybar tuning."


So look, clearly I've been paying attention to what you're saying but I've seen you contradict yourself several times -- this isn't the first. I treated the "make it handle" thread as an introduction to performance handling and I feel like I learned a lot and I appreciate the time you spend to put that knowledge out there.

[gringoloco]

Seems this setup is dependent on the type of handling--autocross, tight circuit likes no bar--high speed track needs the stability--and on the street, where ride quality rules, no bar makes sense.

[robnolimit]

Some days I like dark beer, and some days I do not. Usually depends on the location or the season. It's kind of a Blonde vs. Brunette kinda thing.

Chassis design is the same way. While I would stay with the comments made in the M.I.H. thread, those comments are dependent on a chassis design that allows you to do that.

Even though the bore size is basically the same, you can't put a .300 Win Mag cartridge in a .300 Black Out AR. IF you do, the result is not good.

So, Yes, I said those things, and Yes, they are true. BUT, we are talking about getting the best result from a bolt on trailing arm system on a stock C10 chassis. - Not a performance designed chassis. So we have to be honest and understanding about what we can and can not achieve.

BTW, Cory took his C10 (the butternut yellow truck we used here) + with a new Wide-Ride IFS installed just a week before, to LS Fest, and with NO experience on the new front suspension, ran the Auto-Cross and finished third in the truck class. Not bad at all. #2 was Karen Leisinger in the black #9 C10, and first was Jason Brady in his tube chassis blazer. look for more info on his truck to come out soon.

[SierraMtns]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Some days I like dark beer, and some days I do not. Usually depends on the location or the season. It's kind of a Blonde vs. Brunette kinda thing.

Chassis design is the same way. While I would stay with the comments made in the M.I.H. thread, those comments are dependent on a chassis design that allows you to do that.

Even though the bore size is basically the same, you can't put a .300 Win Mag cartridge in a .300 Black Out AR. IF you do, the result is not good.

So, Yes, I said those things, and Yes, they are true. BUT, we are talking about getting the best result from a bolt on trailing arm system on a stock C10 chassis. - Not a performance designed chassis. So we have to be honest and understanding about what we can and can not achieve.

BTW, Cory took his C10 (the butternut yellow truck we used here) + with a new Wide-Ride IFS installed just a week before, to LS Fest, and with NO experience on the new front suspension, ran the Auto-Cross and finished third in the truck class. Not bad at all. #2 was Karen Leisinger in the black #9 C10, and first was Jason Brady in his tube chassis blazer. look for more info on his truck to come out soon.

Hey Rob,

Do you have any plans on doing a write up on the Wide-Ride IFS kit? I am planing on ordering one for my truck and would like to see one go together.

Thanks

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by SierraMtns

Hey Rob,

Do you have any plans on doing a write up on the Wide-Ride IFS kit? I am planing on ordering one for my truck and would like to see one go together.

Thanks

Yes, we could do that.

[gringoloco]

Sounds like




Haha, just kidding, don't shoot! I just ordered mine--thanks for working with me and for the great deal. I'll be pairing it with a PB front and looking forward to some awesomeness.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by gringoloco

Sounds like




Haha, just kidding, don't shoot! I just ordered mine--thanks for working with me and for the great deal. I'll be pairing it with a PB front and looking forward to some awesomeness.

What, you don't think I like dark beer? Thanks for the order, let us know how it matches up.

[moregrip]

Rob, assuming a 4500lbs DD single cab late model truck moderately lowered (2/4), with stickier rubber, would going with a 1 1/2" front sway bar and 1 1/4" rear sway bar be a wrong choice?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by moregrip

Rob, assuming a 4500lbs DD single cab late model truck moderately lowered (2/4), with stickier rubber, would going with a 1 1/2" front sway bar and 1 1/4" rear sway bar be a wrong choice?

OK, I am assuming (hate to do that) that you are looking at company "X" that has these bars. These are probably a larger version of the O.E. bar (it's a guess). and they will probably help to reduce the body roll.

The O.E. has a lot of factors to cover, and their goal is to make $$ for the share holders. I didn't say 'to sell trucks' or 'to make the best product they can'. The big three are beholding to the share holder first. So, they build a vehicle that will suit the largest segment of a particular market, have some cross-over sales, and make a profit. So, they can't build the best handling truck (even if they wanted too) because too many people would be cut from the market group. - harsh ride, too low, to responsive...... So, the aftermarket is there to 'shape' a vehicle in a certain direction. - towing, performance.... ALWAYS keep this in mind.

Real swaybars are rated in Lbs force per twist amount. And, they don't all use the same scale. It could be lbs per inch (one side vs. the other) or lbs per degree of twist, some use lbs per 5 degrees. To get a grip on this you need to understand which part of the swar bar twists (like a torsion bar or spring). Three piece bars are easy to understand, that the center bar twists, and the arms are the levers to twist with. So, add this in to the equation.

Sway bars with longer 'Arms' are softer than the same bar with a shorter 'arm'.

Sway bars with a shorter center 'bar' are stiffer than sway bars with a longer center 'bar'.

With this in mind, it is easy to understand that a 1 1/2" dia bar, with a long center and long arms could yield lower "lbs/degree resistance" than a 1 1/4" bar with a shorter center and shorter arms. Or, any combination there of. Next would be mounting points, like how far out on the A arm.

[moregrip]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

OK, I am assuming (hate to do that) that you are looking at company "X" that has these bars. These are probably a larger version of the O.E. bar (it's a guess). and they will probably help to reduce the body roll.

The O.E. has a lot of factors to cover, and their goal is to make $$ for the share holders. I didn't say 'to sell trucks' or 'to make the best product they can'. The big three are beholding to the share holder first. So, they build a vehicle that will suit the largest segment of a particular market, have some cross-over sales, and make a profit. So, they can't build the best handling truck (even if they wanted too) because too many people would be cut from the market group. - harsh ride, too low, to responsive...... So, the aftermarket is there to 'shape' a vehicle in a certain direction. - towing, performance.... ALWAYS keep this in mind.
Real swaybars are rated in Lbs force per twist amount. And, they don't all use the same scale. It could be lbs per inch (one side vs. the other) or lbs per degree of twist, some use lbs per 5 degrees. To get a grip on this you need to understand which part of the swar bar twists (like a torsion bar or spring). Three piece bars are easy to understand, that the center bar twists, and the arms are the levers to twist with. So, add this in to the equation.

Sway bars with longer 'Arms' are softer than the same bar with a shorter 'arm'.

Sway bars with a shorter center 'bar' are stiffer than sway bars with a longer center 'bar'.

With this in mind, it is easy to understand that a 1 1/2" dia bar, with a long center and long arms could yield lower "lbs/degree resistance" than a 1 1/4" bar with a shorter center and shorter arms. Or, any combination there of. Next would be mounting points, like how far out on the A arm.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your guidance and appreciate your willingness to share your expertise with us. Based on what I've read I think I'm at a point where I have to find a way to evaluate each modification on my own.

Spit balling, in general I believe (may not be the actual truth) that late model hydroformed frames are generally stiffer than say, old C10 frames. So as a starting point there may be some benefit there. On the other side of the coin I think truck weights have steadily gone up and a newer single cab truck is probably a solid 1000lbs heavier than an older single cab truck. How does this relate to my question? My truck came with a hollow 1 1/4" front sway bar and no rear sway bar, I purchase (from company X-wig) a solid 1 1/2" front sway bar and a solid 1 1/4 rear sway bar along with some lowering springs (company X-tech), along with stickier speed rated rubber (from company X-oyo) in an effort to increase handling and stability. What I've learned is that the front springs are most likely rated at 800lbs, which for spirited driving is probably a little under sprung considering truck weight/aggressive driving............on the other hand the sway bar upgrade may be a little on the aggressive side based on material (solid 4140) and size. With that said, I may get lucky and this large bar/small spring combo may work well together.......maybe not......thoughts?

On a side note (my opinion), in our search for better performance, in a lot of ways we are handicapped, even by the aftermarket, in using whats available because that's what sells vs actual engineered performance.........realistically I believe it would be so incredibly cost prohibitive to custom engineer everything in what would probably be 9 times out 10, trial and error engineering because "for example" the lowering springs I bought were sold for the sole purpose of a look with a cultural implied performance benefit vs actual benefit, yet even these springs are only readily available for the most popular trucks.............maybe I'm rambling..........

bottom line, is that it's a lot to wade through when your trying to only spend your money once! Which is why I/we appreciate your help such as it is.

[BustedTruck]

I've got a question about the notch, does the notch allow for axle to be centered in the wheel well? I've seen some of these with the axle too far foward, and the notches over the non centered rear end, if that makes sense.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by BustedTruck

I've got a question about the notch, does the notch allow for axle to be centered in the wheel well? I've seen some of these with the axle too far foward, and the notches over the non centered rear end, if that makes sense.

Yes is the short answer.

[Cbo]

Are any crossmembers included or are necessary for this kit? Just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I order parts.

Also, what front drop kit do you recommend to go with it? If i do this (drop this much on my "toy" truck), I only wanna do this once ya know.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by Cbo

Are any crossmembers included or are necessary for this kit? Just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I order parts.

Also, what front drop kit do you recommend to go with it? If i do this (drop this much on my "toy" truck), I only wanna do this once ya know.

This kit is based on using stock crossmembers, so none are included. For the rear, the drop is limited by axle clearance. So, about a 7" drop is the max, with a bolt in notch and stock floor. I would match that with a 5" front drop. Spindles first, then springs. As for front shocks, I like the Porterbuilt raised front shock mount, matched with a stock length shock, like the Doetsch 3000 pre-runner. It just works good.

[Cbo]

@robnolimit

With that kind of drop, clearance doesn't start becoming an issue? ( Both ground clearance and exhaust routing)


I remember seeing a crossmember with the center section hummed and two cutouts for exhaust routing, but im not sure who made it, i wanna say Porterbuilt but im not positive

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Cbo

@robnolimit

With that kind of drop, clearance doesn't start becoming an issue? ( Both ground clearance and exhaust routing)


I remember seeing a crossmember with the center section hummed and two cutouts for exhaust routing, but im not sure who made it, i wanna say Porterbuilt but im not positive

The obvious answer to this is yes, clearance becomes an issue w/a 5"F/7"R drop. The exhaust needs to be routed up as tight as possible to the frame. Within the frame yields best results. That can be achieved via aftermarket T/A x-member (Porterbuilt, ECE, CPP, etc...) or cutting holes & reinforcing the factory x-member. Certain long tube headers might be a clearance issue as well so shorter 3/4 length or manifolds might be needed.

As far as ground clearance, w/a 5/7 drop one needs to become more aware of the roads they drive on for best results (minimal damages) depending on overall conditions where you live & just plain slow things down when traveling in unfamiliar areas. The usual point of contact is the front lower a-arm pivot points when there's an abrupt change in road surface @ speed.

[Cbo]

That's kind of what I'm getting at:

"Designed to work with stock crossmembers" and "will not work with aftermarket crossmembers" are two different things.

If it can be bolted on to a low profile one like porterbuilts,with its exhaust route already accounted for, I would rather install it that way.

[crakarjax]

Originally Posted by Cbo

That's kind of what I'm getting at:

"Designed to work with stock crossmembers" and "will not work with aftermarket crossmembers" are two different things.

If it can be bolted on to a low profile one like porterbuilts,with its exhaust route already accounted for, I would rather install it that way.

I don't think there exists an aftermarket crossmember that doesn't afford more flexibility than stock; if a system works with the stock crossmember, it will almost certainly work with an aftermarket.

[robnolimit]

please be careful. Yes, our kit is designed to work with the OE crossmember. This was done to keep cost inline and keep the install easier. It DOES however include new front trailing arm mounts, designed to replace the OE mounts. The "Monster Ball" dimensions are NOT the same as the OE trailing arm bushing. So, the new mounts MUST be used. (or duplicated) If the custom crossmember your looking at has the trailing arm mounts welded on for the OE spec bushing, this will NOT fit the new trailing arm pivot ball. Since most crossmembers I have seen have welded mounts, I don't know of any that will be a direct swap. (please share information if you know of any) Knowing this, modifying the OE crossmember may work out best.

[smbrouss70]

FYI, the Early Classic Enterprises trailing arm crossmember does have the bolt-on mounts, Rob. But the crossmember is flat with one "ear" of the mount longer than the other to make up for the fact that the OEM crossmember is angled where the mounts attach.

[SMKN TA 95]

Originally Posted by smbrouss70

FYI, the Early Classic Enterprises trailing arm crossmember does have the bolt-on mounts, Rob. But the crossmember is flat with one "ear" of the mount longer than the other to make up for the fact that the OEM crossmember is angled where the mounts attach.

I have recently bought the No Limit Trailing arm setup for my truck project, and also picked up the ECE/brothers/etc trailing arm cross member too. I am having some steel bushings made to fit No-Limit's trailing arm setup. All thats needed is a lathe, and some material to make some simple steel bushings to take up the gap due to the smaller width of the monster balls versus stock trailing arm bushings.

I also have a Porterbuilt cross member on order to see which one I like better as far as fitment and exhaust pass through.