Fresh motor build woes (won't start)

[Tmwoodall]

So I built up my motor over the last few months, many of you helped with questions along the way. I finally got to the point of firing it this weekend, I got it to turn over and run for a few minutes before I needed to kill it (Live in city, and it was late). So next day I go out to bump it over and properly break in the cam. It wouldn't start, turned out to be the fuel pump wasn't properly engaging (mechanical) I fixed that and after some timing issues it fired up.

I ran it for about 10 minutes of it's break in before the smoke in the garage was so bad I couldn't be in there. I attributed this to two things, a few pastic pieces hit the headers and melted, and the assembly lube etc burning off. However it was running like a champ.

I go out today to run it for the last 20+ of the breakin before draining the oil. Except it won't turn over, doesn't even try really. Have compression at both the exhaust and carb body. I went to check the oil to make sure I had no gas in there. To be honest I can't say for sure since the whole garage smells of gas but it doesn't seem to have fuel in it. I even tried igniting my dipstick with a lighter, silly I know.

But when I went to pull the dipstick I noticed a very faint white smoke. I pulled the oil filler on the valve cover to watch that and I noticed the same smoke forming in the valve covers as I tried to turn it over. It wouldn't start even with a little gas priming in the carb body.

Any ideas? Suggestions of where to start on troubleshooting? I know I have fuel and spark.

[cdowns]

have you pulled a couple of plugs to check the condition// if run real rich they could b fouled and either need to b cleaned or replased

[truckdude239]

sounds like tis hydo locked pull your plugs

[cableguy0]

I really hate to tell you this BUT starting the engine and running it for a few minutes is really really really bad. I would bet the cam is already hurt. You simply cannot do that. The engine needs to be brought up above 2k rpm as soon as it fires. Even excessive cranking can kill the cam. You need to start over from the beginning and double check everything. You need to bring the engine to tdc and verify the marks line up. Pull the distributor cap off and verify the rotor is point toward the #1 terminal on the cap. Pull the plugs and verify they arent wet with fuel. Ensure your float levels are correct.

[WAAF]

silly question.. did you ever check the oil pressure with it running..
if you do what you listed , you'll be very very lucky if you didn't kill the cam (if flat tappet) you sad garage filled with smoke.. did you find anything melted that would cause you to think that was the cause of the smoke?
was there coolant in this thing..
I'd take the oil filter off and cut it open and look for metal flake in the oil.. if clean.. I'd unbolt the intake and front cover pull the cam (again if flat tappet) look it over and then relube it with the moly break in lube on the lobes and lifter faces..
bolt it together,, set the timing and #1/etc get a few friends over..
one to keep it at 2000-2300rpm for 20 minutes.. one to look for leaks and one to top off the coolant, hold fan/spray water at radator..
like others said, check the cyl. for water.. pull the plugs..
rule #1. never ever start an engine with flat tappet cam if you can't run it for 20 minutes min. and always have a few buddies on hand ..
good luck..

[Tmwoodall]

If I ruined this cam, I am going to be beside myself with anger/grief. This would be number two. I did bring it up to 2k as soon as it fired. But I did also have excessive cranks before it would start (fuel issues, and HEI issues). Both times I have gotten it running I have brought it right up to 2100+ RPMS.

Here is where I am at. I pulled the plugs, Cylinder 1 and 2 came out dry but black. 3 and 4 were gunky and black. 5,7,6,8 were wet with fuel (verified with lighter and nose).

If this is a bust, I may throw in the towel on this.

[Tmwoodall]

Originally Posted by WAAF

silly question.. did you ever check the oil pressure with it running..
if you do what you listed , you'll be very very lucky if you didn't kill the cam (if flat tappet) you sad garage filled with smoke.. did you find anything melted that would cause you to think that was the cause of the smoke?
was there coolant in this thing..
I'd take the oil filter off and cut it open and look for metal flake in the oil.. if clean.. I'd unbolt the intake and front cover pull the cam (again if flat tappet) look it over and then relube it with the moly break in lube on the lobes and lifter faces..
bolt it together,, set the timing and #1/etc get a few friends over..
one to keep it at 2000-2300rpm for 20 minutes.. one to look for leaks and one to top off the coolant, hold fan/spray water at radator..
like others said, check the cyl. for water.. pull the plugs..
rule #1. never ever start an engine with flat tappet cam if you can't run it for 20 minutes min. and always have a few buddies on hand ..
good luck..

Yes a few things hit both headers and melted, plus a bit of oil spilled out on to the headers so I had reason enough to explain away the smoke. I checked the oil pressure I forget what it was running at but I want to say 130, it would bump up within a second or two of me cranking it.

The substance in the spark plug tunnels came out black and was definitely gas based, but could have had water/oil in it but didn't seem to as It didn't separate as that mixture should/would have.

[1968SWBBigBlock]

fear not - this is all a learning curve - sometimes expensive
You have done very well to get yourself to this point
The advice above is all very good - gather your thoughts and start with the plugs - just replace them and call it a day.
Reset you dizzy to make sure the timimg is spot on
check the level of your oil and fuel float bowls
Double check you oil pressure 130 psi is higher than I have ever seen - likley just a memory issue as you had a bunch of stuff going on at once.
This all reminds me why I loved breaking my last motor in on the dyno

[cableguy0]

If you had 130lbs of oil pressure you have some serious problems. Most oil pumps have the relief valve set at 80lbs. More than 80lbs starts to blow out seals and will leave all the oil sitting in the top of the motor. You have a carburetor issue. Those plugs are all fouled out. Pull the carb apart check for trash in the needle/seat assembly and set the float level. Its flooding and flooding bad. Break-in is extremely important. Extreme care should be taken before you think about hitting that key. You need fans setup. You need to make sure the cooling system is burped. You should have primed the engine the oil pump and filled the carb with fuel to ensure it fires instantly.

[Tmwoodall]

As stated above oil Pressure was likely a memory recall issue. But I do have pressure and good pressure.

After talking to my dad here is my plan. Replace plugs. Reset dist. Drain oil and skim with magnet for metal. Cut open filter also looking for metal. Refill and add breaking fluid. Give it another shot.

If its blown and I have to start back from block and rotating assembly I'm out. Too much money, work and grief to learn a "lesson." damn near have enough in this to buy a stroked crate from summit at this poInt.
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[WAAF]

on flat tap cams.. break in is start and bring to 2000-2400rpm and move it between that rpm for 20 minutes.. your post you said you started it, stopped, restarted ran for 10 and stopped..
try turning it over with the plugs out.. if it was hyd'n you'll have water spitting out the plug hole as you crank..
because of the way you've started /stopped/ started stopped.
I'd if it was me..cut the oil filter open and look, if the oil isn't black/brown metal flake, then.. bite the bullet(the few gaskets and oil and time now is cheaper than needing all new parts) and pull the intake/water pump front cover recoat the cam and lifters with moly break in lube.. refill the engine with new oil(break in oil) reset everything.. tripble checking you have the engine on the compression stoke tdc and ign rotor pointing at #1.. fire'n order correct.. coolant and a few buddys over..
start it. bring it to 2000-2400rpm and keep it there for 20 minutes at least..
plan ahead.. if it's to late at night wait.. have a fan to cool the radator and a water hose to help cool it.. a fire ex. just in case.. and fuel to run 20 minutes at 2300 rpm..
timing light.. and warning the 'hood that you are starting it.. so they don't call the cops and they force you to shut it off..
good luck..

[Tmwoodall]

Originally Posted by WAAF

on flat tap cams.. break in is start and bring to 2000-2400rpm and move it between that rpm for 20 minutes.. your post you said you started it, stopped, restarted ran for 10 and stopped..
try turning it over with the plugs out.. if it was hyd'n you'll have water spitting out the plug hole as you crank..
because of the way you've started /stopped/ started stopped.
I'd if it was me..cut the oil filter open and look, if the oil isn't black/brown metal flake, then.. bite the bullet and pull the intake/water pump front cover recoat the cam and lifters with moly break in lube.. refill the engine with new oil(break in oil) reset everything.. tripble checking you have t he engine on the compression stoke tdc and ign rotor pointing at #1.. fire'n order correct.. coolant and a few buddys over..
start it. bring it to 2000-2400rpm and keep it there for 20 minutes at least..
plan ahead.. if it's to late at night wait.. have a fan to cool the radator and a water hose to help cool it.. a fire ex. just in case.. and fuel to run 20 minutes at 2300 rpm..
timing light.. and warning the 'hood that you are starting it.. so they don't call the cops and they force you to shut it off..
good luck..

That is exactly my plan. Had that all in place except for buddy and timing. Going to tackle restart when dad and bro are in town next week. I'm calming down and won't light mt garage on fire, yet.
Posted via Mobile Device

[cdowns]

do you have fire extingusher handy for safety?

better that it ran rich than lean

[GASoline71]

It has happened to pretty much all of us at one time. Breaking in new flat tappet cams is a pretty delicate deal. I lost a cam in a 355 build when the fuel pump we were using crapped the bed 5 minutes into the break in period. The engine chugged to a stop as it ran out of fuel. I got another pump off the shelf, and installed it, and continued the break in procedure. Engine was down maybe 20 minutes.

For the love of Pete if that cam didn't wiped 3 lobes and ate the lifters only 100 miles into driving the rig.

Now I have checklists to remind me of everything I need to check before break in. Then I have checklists to remind me of the checklists...

Keepin' the fingers crossed for ya mang!

Gary

[Tmwoodall]

Originally Posted by cdowns

do you have fire extingusher handy for safety?

better that it ran rich than lean

Yep. Fire extinguisher, hose, and fan.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Tmwoodall]

Wait, will my lifters fall through the oil valley if I pull the cam and I have the engine right side up? If so I may bite the additional $200 bullet and replace both. Still ****-tons cheaper than a new crate would be.

Or should I just carry on as planned and relube cam and give the break in an honest go?

[cdowns]

when i cam you need to loosen rockers pull pushrods and remove lifters i dont know of any other way

[Tmwoodall]

Originally Posted by cdowns

when i cam you need to loosen rockers pull pushrods and remove lifters i dont know of any other way

That is what I thought. I'll check for metal tonight and go from there.

Metal = New cam and full rebuild

No Metal = Relube and reset, and praying.

[Tmwoodall]

I am now considering just going full roller so I can skip this break in business. At this point I've spent enough on cams to buy a roller setup. If I buy another or six (which at this rate is where I am headed) I'm far deeper into a flat tappet setup than I would be with a roller.

[BurnoutNova]

I think some of these horror stories about cams might be because they were not broken in with zinc additive in the oil. I have broken in many cams without running them at 2200+ rpm for 20 min. As long as you build up heat in the engine, and get the lobes to harden that is all that matters. The rpm does help build up some heat so idling is not a good idea. The biggest thing though is running a high zinc content oil, or some zinc additive like the stuff Comp cams sells.

[Tmwoodall]

Originally Posted by BurnoutNova

I think some of these horror stories about cams might be because they were not broken in with zinc additive in the oil. I have broken in many cams without running them at 2200+ rpm for 20 min. As long as you build up heat in the engine, and get the lobes to harden that is all that matters. The rpm does help build up some heat so idling is not a good idea. The biggest thing though is running a high zinc content oil, or some zinc additive like the stuff Comp cams sells.

I am running zinc additive, the comp brand stuff actually. Man, just looked at pricing to move to full roller. I see now why folks stick with old school flat tappet...

[GASoline71]

Originally Posted by BurnoutNova

I think some of these horror stories about cams might be because they were not broken in with zinc additive in the oil. I have broken in many cams without running them at 2200+ rpm for 20 min. As long as you build up heat in the engine, and get the lobes to harden that is all that matters. The rpm does help build up some heat so idling is not a good idea. The biggest thing though is running a high zinc content oil, or some zinc additive like the stuff Comp cams sells.

He is using zinc additive... almost everybody is. But if something happens during break in. Or the break in isn't done properly you will probably lose the cam. Some have lucked out... most have not.

You have been one of the lucky ones if you have not followed the cam break in procedures the manufacturers advise. It's not about the cam getting "harder" with heat in the engine. It's about breaking in the wear pattern correctly with the cam and lifters. If that isn't achieved within the first 20 minutes of the engines life with proper break in procedures and oil/additives. It's only a matter of time when you will lose a lobe (or 2).

Gary

[Tmwoodall]

Well, I'm a bit sick about this, but ordering a new gasket kit, more zinc and a new cam.

Rebuild with the pops (which will be fun in itself), break in with 4 more helping hands by my side. Lesson f'n learned. As I told my wife, my truck brings me great lows, but also incredible highs. Gotta take it all with a grain of salt, without the bad the great wouldn't be so good.

Thanks all.

[Marv D]

You can not get the cam out without pulling the lifters, plain and simple.
I don't build motors with flat tappet cams any more at all, but... I will have to disagree with a lot here in saying the pause in breakin isn't going to automatically spell the demise of a cam. Breakin above 2000rpm is simply to allow the 'sling' of oil off the rotating assembly onto the cam to cool things during breakin, and to also pump lots of oil up into the heads so it gets a wash of oil from above. There is no 'magic' in the breakin rpm as far as 'surface speed' of the lifter and cam lobe, or every cam would need a different breakin rpm with different lobe diameters. Besides think of this,, a drill will burn up if you spin it too fast even if your using a good cutting lube right, but drill slow and steady and the lubricant will protect the bit. Same basic thing with a lathe and cutting edge. SPEED kills! To a point that's basically what were doing in cam breakin,, keeping the flow of oil across the face of the lobe and lifter to keep it cool while the two hardened faces fine a happy medium. Yes there is some reason for the surface speed of the two components, but a stop-start in the total breakin time hasn't been a issue for me, ever. Besides, the flat tappet cam lobe is ground on a slight angle so it 'spins' the lifter and doesn't 'grind away' at the same point of the lifter face. Add a bit of cam walk front to back and there is no reason I can see that a start-stop breakin is a problem AS LONG AS a quality lube and supplement in todays oil is used.

And THAT is the key to your dilemma on what to do IMO. Unless you run a 'real' oil like the $15 a quart off road / racing only oil in this motor for the life of the cam ( 5 qts and a filter for about $80 per oil change x 3 for the first 500 miles) ,, I don't expect ANY flat tappet cam to survive breakin, OR life in stop-go traffic. If you have any kind of performance cam, and the matching springs that it is 'supposed' to have, you need to R&R them for a light breakin spring (so add the cost of breakin springs to the list)
How is a flat tappet cam cost effective? And all this is ASSUMING you don't loose the cam and distribute debris all through the bearings trashing your new rotating assembly. (add a $500-$3000 risk here)

$1000 will get you a nice streetable hydraulic roller cam, a set of SpeedPro 'retro-fit' hydraulic roller lifters, correct length CM pushrods, Springs, and a set of good roller rockers. THEN you can run any of the API starburst graded oils and not worry about it.

Add up how many $80 oil changes you will do in 50,000 miles vs $25 oil changes with a hydraulic roller. Things start to pay for themselves (at least that's how I justified it to my wife LOL)

[Tmwoodall]

Originally Posted by Marv D

You can not get the cam out without pulling the lifters, plain and simple.
I don't build motors with flat tappet cams any more at all, but... I will have to disagree with a lot here in
..abbrevieated....
cam and distribute debris all through the bearings trashing your new rotating assembly. (add a $500-$3000 risk here)

$1000 will get you a nice streetable hydraulic roller cam, a set of SpeedPro 'retro-fit' hydraulic roller lifters, correct length CM pushrods, Springs, and a set of good roller rockers. THEN you can run any of the API starburst graded oils and not worry about it.

Add up how many $80 oil changes you will do in 50,000 miles vs $25 oil changes with a hydraulic roller. Things start to pay for themselves (at least that's how I justified it to my wife LOL)

Posts like that scare the crap out of me, especially being the novice builder that I am, and investment I already have in this thing ($, Physically, Emotionally). I have to think though that with additives and breaking done properly flat tappets are still a totally viable option, or else they wouldn't be so wide spread used. Ideal, no. Workable with proper break in and upfront care, sure. If this new one craps the bed, hands down, I am out. Crate engines/pro builds for life from then on.

I must admit, I had WAAAAY more cranking time than is even remotely advisable (I forgot to hook up power to my HEI). Hence the starting over.