Advice On SBC 350 and T5 Swap

[b2948kevin]

Hey guys, I'm looking for a little bit of advice. Since I have some specific questions, I thought I would start a new thread.

I just pulled the 250 I6 out of my 66, and it looks like it's more work to rebuild than it's worth. My next best option is to put a used 350 in there.

I am looking at a used Chevy 350 (supposedly 47k original miles, ran great. I know...) with all of the accessories today. Original intake, original exhaust, no carb. He wants $300, is that reasonable?

Next, I am looking to put a T5 trans behind the 350 to give me a better highway ride. I have the bellhousing for the 250 which I read mounts up just fine to the SBC 350 and to the T5.

I see this trans on CL: http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/pts/2551068761.html

From what I read, the shifter will line up to almost the original spot. Should I go after this?

Mostly, I'm trying to make sure I don't make any obvious errors. I did a bunch of reading on this, and I think this is correct.

[Wrenchbender Ret]

Find out if it has a mechanical speedo drive. If it has an electronic speedo drive it will be hard to hook a speedo up to it. I have put 2 of them behind 350s & they work real good but remember you cant go hot rodding it. Those are not real stout transmissions.

[brap999]

If it doesn't have the mechanical speedo, you can buy a speedo gear and gear housing for a TH350, it will screw right in to the T5. This is what I have for my T5.

It's my understanding finding a manual speedo gear for a T5 is difficult.

FYI, I got them from http://www.transmissioncenter.net/sp...#Misc.%20Gears

Just scroll down to where it says GM T5 Gears, and they will sell you the Th350 speedo gear for the T5

EDIT: I should also say that from what I understand, getting to 300 hp is really pushing the upper limits of the stock T5

[wc63]

cant you put camaro (wc) components in this T5 to be able to handle the added horsepower of the 350? i think ive read of people doing this in order to upgrade their s10 tranny to something a camaro or mustang would have.

[jocko]

Difference between a Camaro/Firebird/Mustang T5 and most others is that, generally speaking they are World Class T5's whereas S10s are USUALLY not. 93 S10 T5's were available in WC trim.

Things to look for:
If the trans is out of an S10, the input shaft length will not be the same length as that which works in an old chev bell housing (whereas a Camaro T5 IS the correct input shaft length). But, as you alluded to above, the Camaro trans with a Camaro tailshaft will have the shifter located too far aft for a truck bench.

Keep in mind that someone may have swapped an S10 tailshaft onto a Camaro main case/guts, etc. This is the ideal situation - stout(er) + correct input shaft length.

But, odds are you have an S10 trans and odds are that it is not a WC type. So, valid warning to not drop the clutch in it, or it will become nut and bolt soup.

The only way to properly ID a T5 is by the small metal ID tag that is attached. Do not use case/tail/etc casting numbers - they will not likely give you the true picture. But then again, if it's a franken-trans, the tag won't mean anything.

So, if it's an S10 T5, you will need a means of compensating for the different input shaft length - at the same time, it's important to note where the splines on the T5 shaft are (and how long they are) relative to the trans that preceded it - and how they will mesh (fully hopefully) with the new clutch/pp/and thickness of the release bearing. Also note the length of the bearing retainer collar - the T5 collar is generally longer than a 3-speed's and needs to have a hacksaw taken to it (but you need to figure out a workable length, not just hack it to be the same length as the ol 3-speed's - Release Bearings vary in thickness, etc).

The other consideration is that if/when you need to space the trans and bell apart to compensate for the longer input shaft of an S10 T5, you can't just use washers between the two, the trans won't last long due to i/p shaft side loads. It's imperative that you properly and accurately index the bearing retainer into the bell housing index ring opening. If you just insert a spacer, it will very likely be just enough to keep the bearing retainer from engaging. Ugh.

My solution that makes everything line up just right (in my case anyway) is a 1/2 spacer with a hole in it exactly the size of the index ring (4.686" inside dia) and then a 1/2" thick, 3/4" wide ring spacer that will mount on top of the bearing release collar (which was milled down to allow the added ring to seat properly. You will need 1/2" longer M8x1.25 bolts than stock to slide em thru the ring and bearing release collar into the trans (note - torque on the bearing collar bolts is only 15 ft-lbs.... I screwed that up and it cost me a heli-coil, which I then promptly dropped inside the case. Yes, I was a bit miffed).

Anyhoo, a pic is worth a thousand words. IF you have an S10 trans, then you will need a spacer of some sort - this is just one way to skin the cat. In order to make sure everything was aligned appropriately and since I could not find bolt hole blueprints (relative to the trans centerline) I had the 4.686" index ring milled first, then mounted it, then sprayed the blank aluminum stock so I can cut out the spacer on a band saw (edges) and also drill the 1/2" holes for the bolts (note you must drill out the T5 mounting holes to 1/2")

This is where I'm at right now anyway. I am getting ready to drill and cut out the spacer - in the pics you'll hopefully get the idea here, I know my rambling above probably doesnt make a lot of sense in sentences.

When/If you look at this trans - note that:
- our trucks have bell hsg (not tail shaft) trans mounts - might be an issue if you use the one piece bell this guy is selling - may require a tailshaft mount for the trans.
- compare this to the one-piece in the craigslist pics.
- Rule of thumb - you don't need 3 mounting points - just 2, i.e. EITHER engine mounts + bell hsg mounts - OR - engine mounts + trans tailshaft mounts
- the fact that he at least has a chev bell housing bolted onto it means it's 92-93 or earlier because after one of those years, they ALL had Ford bell housing bolt pattern, even the Camaros/Firebirds/S10s.
- the fact that he has the chev bell mounted does NOT mean the i/p shaft is the correct length to work in a chev - ask if he's ever installed that combo in a car and if if worked. if it did, it is likely a Camaro trans (vice S10) but with an S10 tailshaft mounted in it (in which case, don't blink and buy it!) But - he COULD have just mounted the bell on the S10 trans (which it would "mount" to, but not work when you go to install it because the input shaft was too long - just beware)

Here's some key measurements, , maybe helpful links, and pics of my approach to the problem:

- S10 input shaft will have 14 teeth
- Stock 3-speed and Camaro T5 input shaft length (from mounting surf of trans front) = approx 6.6"
- S10 input shaft length (from mounting surface of trans front) = approx 7.1"
- a mid-80's Astro van 11" clutch kit is the best bet for an S10 T5 swap (i.e. 14 tooth input shaft /clutch match, etc)

Identifying a T5: http://www.5speeds.com/t5/
T5 ID tag decoder (and other info) - the most extensive ID page I've found (compare the 1352-xxx #'s between the proposed trans and this chart): http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm
Excellent leaping off point for many informative T5 links: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/t5_fivespeed.htm

Various forum links to the the subj of T5s:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=212959
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=313954
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=1#post4220832
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=408694
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=460796
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=471532

Other ref/tech links:
Car Craft T5 swap article: http://www.carcraft.com/howto/116_06...ion/index.html
inliners.com ref: http://www.inliners.org/
EXCELLENT LINK On how to IDENTIFY A WC T5 from a Non-WC T5 - only article I've found that shows the single 1 look ID feature close-up (bearing race or just plain end plug): http://www.flatheadv8.org/ernie/ernie-t5.htm

[jocko]

a few more pics. Still not done with this swap, have some more drillin and some cuttin to do, but planning to post a build thread when done. If I ever get done, that is, been a little busy lately!

But, as seen here, ready to install into the stock chev 66 bell hsg and ensure:
1) sufficient pilot shaft engagement in the pilot bushing while still spacing it out enough to not bottom out
2) sufficient engagement between clutch hub splines and input shaft splines
3) no bearing release collar interference with clutch hub

Hope this helps you see some of the issues to be resolved and might provide some possible solutions.

By the way - looked a little closer at the CL ad - the one you're considering appears to have an electronic speedo hookup. Not 100% clear, kind of a small pic, but you'll know if you go look at it - or ask the guy.

[wc63]

damn jocko. looks like you have your sh*t down. i wish you were my neighbor. so i take it you have an s10 t5? do you think finding a camaro t5 and replacing the tailshaft would be an easier route?

[jocko]

wc63, I think it is the preferred route (camaro main case with S10 tailshaft), however, I sure never could find both easily and I didn't want to buy 2 separate transmissions for the prices I was finding them listed at. They seem to be getting harder to find for reasonable prices. I actually stumbled, literally over mine at the Pomona Swap meet - I almost tripped over the i/p shaft sticking out of the guy's tent-thing-stall. I got lucky (I think anyway) - bought it as-is: a 93 S10 T5 (it's a WC) and the guy that rebuilt it installed a mech speedo hookup. So, while I did have to work the spacer issue, I got a good trans for around $400. I put another $70 into it to get it inspected and some heli-coil chips fished out... But that's another story.

If you can find a combo that's already been done (camaro + S10 tailshaft), that's a great thing - or if you can find both for a reasonable price, that's a great thing too and you can combine them. otherwise, you have to play all the spacer games - and even that's not too bad - just took me a while to figure out how I wanted to do it. Generally speaking, all the places I looked for an S10 tailshaft seemed to "know what you wanted it for and how bad you wanted it" and they were asking as much for the tailshaft as they were for full S10 transmissions. Kind of a shame - there's really not much to the tailshaft housing/shifter mount, etc. It's just popular, unfortunately.

Other folks have either:
- turned down (edit: shortened, not turned down) the input shaft (pilot shaft portion) to keep it from bottoming out and called it a day. I avoided that because, in my case, it really left the splines on the clutch and the splines on the i/p shaft barely engaging and also would've required even part of the splines on the i/p shaft to be milled off so they didn't bottom against the pilot bushing.
- there is a Hamilton Intakes spacer kit (S10-T5) but caution - I tried this route, they've been out of the part for months and months now, keep blaming their supplier, and don't return inquiries for months on end. Extremely unprofessional company - even if they admit they do it part time. I ran out of patience.
- Advance Adapters make a lot of Jeep T5 parts, but there are a few adapters that might work. the one I had in mind thru them was about .85" thick - and that left only about .25" of the pilot shaft engaged, so I worked the 1/2" spacer instead. And for what it's worth, I did a simple drawing for a local machine shop and they only charged me $80 for the two part total. The guy was real nice and they did it in 3 days. Wish I'd gone that route in the first place! He did say if he were to do it again, he'd charge a little over $100-120.

[Str8axle]

This looks like a nice piece. It's a shame about the backorder issue.

http://hamiltonintakes.com/products/...5-swap-adapter

[jocko]

str8axle - yep, it sure is a shame. I wasted 2 months on their promise. Then sent them one final email a long time ago, about the time i gave up on them. I got an email yesterday, finally, from the guy. "Sorry, you know those foundries, they sure are slow..." Sounds like a blamer to me. Whatever. They still don't have it, so glad i didn't waste the rest of the summer waiting on them. The real rub is - the first time I wrote to them, they wrote back fairly quickly - and the website did not say out of stock like it does now - (that just showed up suddenly after I tried to place an actual order) - so I planned the entire swap around that piece - then when it came time to buy it a few weeks later, they said they didn't have any and it'd be 3 weeks for the foundry to provide some more material. It's been almost 3 months total since then and they still don't have any made. It's a couple of guys trying to run what looks like a real business in their spare time - they have day jobs and I compliment them on a great design and some cool stuff, but c'mon, either you're in biz or you aren't. I'm just sayin. Anyhoo! Onward and upward!

[jocko]

A little follow-up - here's the final adapter installed.

[Scot_Douglas]

Beautiful!

[b2948kevin]

WOW! I think I may have gotten more than I bargained for in this thread...

Thank you for all of the info on the spacer. I think I will either wait for the Hamilton piece, or have my own fabricated.

Jacko, I don't even know what to say... Bravo...

[jocko]

thanks guys, much appreciated. One thing I learned doing this - if you can find a spacer that is a little too thick, but would otherwise work... Then just don't pound the crank's pilot bushing all the way in and it will help support the pilot shaft a little better. That was one of my concerns with the Advanced Adapters approach, their plate as around 0.8"+ and it pulled the pilot shaft quite a bit out of the bushing. If I hadn't pounded it in as far as you normally would, it would have been sufficient pilot shaft support. I ALMOST went this route, i.e. leaving the pilot bushing about 1/4"-3/8" proud of fully flushed with the crank and then use the Advanced Adapters kit. But, my problem then became that I was approaching maybe only having about half the clutch/ip shaft splines engaging. So, homemade seemed the best approach. I hope it works!

As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't hold my breath for the Hamilton Intakes piece. Here's a link to the advanced adapters one I was gonna use. Nice piece, and it uses TWO bearing retainers, your original and another one that comes in the kit - unique approach to the problem. I was gonna try to make this one work, but then decided to go go my own way - TBD if that was a good idea or not! http://www.advanceadapters.com/produ...ngine-adapter/ (I was gonna drill out the tapped 1/2" holes for chev bell and make them a "pass-thru" for the trans to bell mounting bolts - and just not use the Jeep T5 mounting points)

[J.Cagle]

The manual t5 swap seemed overwelming to me as I am limited on my mechanical skill, and very limited on time. So I opted for a th350. Not the best choice I am sure, but since my donor vehicle already had it Ill use it until I get the time and the parts gathered up for a manual swap. It may be easier for you, depending on your location, but I was having a hard time finding t5s, or the vehicles that had them in them. Hope everything goes smoothly for you!

[63 & 64 Bowties]

jocko, seems like I'm stating the obvious here, but since you have the pattern, you should get your machine shop to mass produce several more (higher volume = lower per-unit price) and you could probably sell several here.

[jocko]

i thought about that - and asked the guy - he said he'd want $120 to mass produce the blank plate with the 4.686 hole (it was 9"x12") and the sized ring that goes onto the bearing retainer. I had him mill the plate with the big hole only (i.e. no bolt holes) so that I could bring it home, mount it on the trans, then squirt the combo with paint so I could precisely locate the bolt holes since I didn't have the exact location of the holes relative to the index ring centerline (an important relationship). So, I still don't have EXACT hole locations - I had to ream mine a bit to get them to work. HE would charge more to drill the holes, assuming I could precisely locate them. In the future I'm gonna try to find the exact measurements and then I can do up the drawings and stick em on here so folks can take them to the machinist and run with it.

But for now - if you're innterested in doing this, here's the nit noids of how I did it:

9"x12" aluminum plate (1/2" thick)
Machinist milled the 4.686" hole centered on the 12" length, and 4" from the long end (i.e. not centered). The 4" measurement from centerline is to the TOP edge of the plate.
The ring was milled from the same material (1/2" thick) and is about 3/4" wide.

I provided the stock bearing retainer so he could ensure a slip fit of the combo into the index ring hole.

I brought it home, squirted it with paint while on the trans and then drilled the holes and band sawed the outer profile, approx 3/4" away from all the holes. Sanded and chamfered and then said my prayers....

[oldtrux]

jocko,cant wait any longer for more pics,shifter etc.lol.nice work!very impressed.

[jocko]

Ha, thanks oldtrux - will post when I get em in there. In the meantime, here's the hole for the shifter - I'm planning a metal rim welded to a plate that bolts to the floor with a few sheetmetal screws - to allow a little adjustability in placement - and also so it's replaceable in case I ever switch transmissions (heaven forbid...), hopefully all below the rubber mat so that all that is visible is the rubber boot I got for it. But that remains to be seen.... Had to go refill the ol mig cylinder the other day, so will see if I can rig something up without burning the garage down. I'm using a 16.5" Lokar stick with a a white 5-speed ball for now. Future plans call for a painted steel stick with a doorknob or old shifter knob, etc. Maybe with a 5-spd pattern etched/carved in. Who knows.

[oldtrux]

looks good jocko,great clearance for bench seat.i also picked up one of those discontinued hurst shifter kits off ebay thanks to your tip but i am not as far along with my project as you are.i am off to europe for a few weeks and i am looking forward to a complete report (with pics)when i get back.hope your rippin thru the gears by then...cheers dan

[jocko]

I have a trip coming up too, unfortunately it's just to Lemoore... But hey! Anyhoo, trans is back in and it was a bit of a pain. Hole for shifter will need to be elongated but that's ok, my plan for a cover plate will still work out just fine. This was the hard part.
Also note - had to make a big notch in the adapter plate to allow for the shifter boot - forgot about that little bugger. Wasn't a very pretty cut, but had to do it while I had help getting the trans in (Thanks Nick!). Had a bit of a time getting the upper bolts in - have to use socket heads in the first place, and on the passenger side, still had to grind it down a bit. Air ratchet made life a little easier. A little. A bit of alarm when we couldn't get the trans all the way in - about 1/4" shy it seemed - was worried I mis-measured the i/p shaft length!! But, it was the index ring hanging up - I made it with pretty tight clearance - so stickin the clutch in and shoving made the last 1/4" go in. Then checked clutch clearance with clutch pedal fully out and it is good - release bearing has about 3/8" clearance with between itself and the release fingers on the pressure plate. Factory spec is 1/4", but I can always tighten it up a bit. Just making sure I don't start it up and go sailing into thru the garage wall and into my living room...

Anyway, here are some pics: Note just how tight the shifter mounting surface is to the tunnel metal - about 1/4" clearance. (this is a low hump, by the way).

Anyway - with that, it will work out very nice once I open up the shifter hole in the floor a little bit. Planning to drill (large size the corner limits) and then use a cutoff wheel to connect the corners - then I can entirely install the shifter from above - and also measure/mark for the cover plate so it will be properly centered (note, it must have a round opening, approx 3.25" so the boot will slip on slightly tight). Pics, I promise as I move along, but this will be it for this weekend!

[jocko]

A few more pics. By the way, note that in the pics above - I ended up NOT using the long upper guide bolts - it's a good idea, but one of them was bent I think, so it just added to the "fun". Was much easier to get it in with a little help from my neighbor.

[awbrown]

You are a genius jocko... I have heard how to do this many times , but now I have seen it ... I just got a 92 s10 truck trans and will be doing the same type swap on a 48 chevy ... one question , will you use anything to support the rear of the trans ???

[padresag]

you do not require a rear trans mount with that application. if you put one there then you should remove the mounts(insuators) from the bellhousing mount
ron

[jocko]

awbrown, what padre mentioned is correct. It's an "either-or" situation - you will need either a rear trans mount or the stock bell hsg mounts (if your '48 has those) - do not use both of them because then torquing of the frame may cause binding/case stresses, etc. For mine, I just used the stock bell hsg mounts and no rear trans mount. In case yoru '48's set-up does not have them, then just buy a generic mount with isolator and use the stock rear isolator mount on the T5.

92 S10, nice score! I'd be interested in knowing if it's a WC T5? Mine is and until I looked it up and learned how to ID them, I never thought there were any. WC or non-WC, doesn't matter, it'll be great for your '48. Look fwd to some pics - you posting in the other forum?