I hate my Dana 60

[DetroitDan]

I am totally confused by the fact that for my whole life, owning 4x4s and lifting most of them, all I've ever heard is how great Dana 60s are, and how bad IFS is. From personal experience, it seems the opposite. I beat the heck out of a 97 IFS 3500 diesel for ten years, 33 inch mudders, 10 foot snowplow, only problem I ever had was the wheelbearing hub assemblies would fail every couple of years, because the plow was too heavy for the truck, since the diesel engine was already using up most of the available front axle gvwr. At around 175k the cv axles started making a little noise so I swapped in a used set someone gave me, left over from a SFA swap.

I had a few trucks with Dana 44s, I know better than to run 6 lug stuff, (broke the 78 I had right after bolting on 36s). My 3/4 tons I ran 35s all summer, plowed all winter, only issues were doing axle shaft u-joints almost every winter, and balljoints every couple of years.

Since I've owned my very first Dana 60, I've driven it about 2 or 3 thousand miles, and it seems that I've had nothing but trouble with it. Dealt with the death wobble, changed kingpin springs and cones, wheelbearings, got it under control by adding a heavy duty steering stabilizer, although the stock one was like new. So I know I didn't fix it, it just masked the problem temporarily. I've changed the front springs twice, and the U-bolt studs on the passenger side are a huge pain. Changed the shocks, but I'm going to upgrade them again to try to make it ride a little better. The lift shocks I put on were used, so I dont trust that they're working well. The new u-bolts loosened up and needed to be tightened. I can't testify to the 4wd ability, because it doesn't have a plow and it doesn't have big tires, so the 4wd has only been used to get out of my driveway. Actually had to pull it once in my driveway with my Suburban, because I backed it onto a snowbank and the one-leg rearend is useless, guess I was spoiled with the Detroit locker in the last two trucks I owned. From what I know of the history of this truck, I don't think the 4wd saw much abuse. It was still stock height with 215/85 highway tires on it.
Speaking of abuse, plenty of people run 60s with huge rubber, I'm worried about with just little puny 235/85s. I want to go SRW and run 37 militarys, but I'm worried that will magnify the heck out of any minor problems.

Anyway, the reason I am ranting about this is because right now it's in the driveway where the towtruck left it. Snapped off 3 of the 4 studs attaching the steering arm and lift block to the knuckle. Fortunately it happened in an Advance Auto parking lot, as I had just got off the highway with two of my kids in the truck. I actually heard a stud snap, I believe the other two were broken for a while, and that is why I was at the parts store, buying new calipers to try to correct a little wiggle I'd get when I stepped on the brakes. I thought I had a grabby caliper, but now I am pretty sure it was the steering block. Until the 3rd one broke, you couldn't have noticed it unless you were looking right at it while someone turned the wheel. BTW, these were brand new studs within the last year, so it's not like a 30 year old part broke.

IDK, I just needed to vent about this. I know I don't beat on this truck. Yes it's old, but so was most everything else I've owned, that I beat like red-headed stepchildren. I baby this truck and all it does is give me a hard time.

Funny thing is, I've got 3 or 4 people who want to buy the truck, and I've been reluctant to sell it, just because I always wanted one. I have wanted for a long time to swap in SRW axles, just so I can run bigger tires, but if I go with a srw front 60, I'm afraid of having the same problems, and if I swap to a 3/4 ton 44 front, I'll worry that I'll break it because it's weaker than a 60, then I'll look dumb for swapping down.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I hate the fact that it doesn't turn. Hard enough driving a longbed crewcab, it really sucks that the front wheels don't turn far enough.

[Lower]

Arp studs will solve that, You can adjust the steering with the stops on the backside of the knuckles.

[DetroitDan]

Originally Posted by Lower

Arp studs will solve that, You can adjust the steering with the stops on the backside of the knuckles.

I'm going to order some from Off Road Design. I'll adjust the stops too, thanks. I just spent a little time out there with some drill bits and easy outs. So far I've got a hole drilled in one stud, but my biggest extractor was going to snap, so I quit for the time being.

[ghettoluxury]

You need to go abuse that thing. I have had many problems with Dana 60's but they have all been caused by me. After upgrading to axle shafts, U-Joints, and drive flanges the only problem I can not stop is destroying ring gears.

As far as steering is concerned new king pins and removing the stabilizer shock has always made things good. I also remove the studs on the leafsprings and replace them with grade 8 bolts. Having a sway bar is also a must.

If you did not know the only difference between SRW and DRW axles is the outer hubs. Most of the guys running hummer beadlocks use DRW axles to set them out where they should be.

[oldspowered67C10]

60s are pretty tough especially when used as a front axle. The problem you experienced with the steering arm isnt that uncommon though. We have a few 97 f-350 diesel service trucks(very heavy) in our fleet that had 4wd conversions done to them when new. They also use the bolt-on steer arm and Ive seen those studs come loose and break a couple of times now. Seems the way the steer arm mounts to the knuckle in such a small bolt circle is a poor design, and I can image the lift block only makes it worse.

We were going to have our machine shop counter bore the bolt holes in the knuckle and arm for sleeves or just drill holes for locating pins but we found that quality studs,red loctite and proper torquing of the nuts goes a long way to making the best of a poor design.

[mcmlxix]

I would consider replacing the steering block... Thats the first thing I did when rebuilding my D60. I chose a springless design so I can set the preload on the kingpins.... there is Crossover OR Crossover with High Steer

http://northwestfab.3dcartstores.com...-Kit_p_94.html

[DetroitDan]

we'll see what happens if I can get this apart. Not like the broken studs are in something I could remove and replace.
Ghettoluxury, are you talking about fronts or rears regarding the hummer wheels? I thought in front it would set them out way too far on a hummer wheel. I've also read it's not good to cut off the drw adaptors and bolt the hub back on, they say it makes something too weak, idk why. In the rear I dont have enough room for anything, because of the narrow rear axle. WIth 235/85 tires there is about 3/4 inch between the inner sidewall and the spring pack, so I'd have to swap it out anyway.

[mcmlxix]

Originally Posted by DetroitDan

we'll see what happens if I can get this apart. Not like the broken studs are in something I could remove and replace.
Ghettoluxury, are you talking about fronts or rears regarding the hummer wheels? I thought in front it would set them out way too far on a hummer wheel. I've also read it's not good to cut off the drw adaptors and bolt the hub back on, they say it makes something too weak, idk why. In the rear I dont have enough room for anything, because of the narrow rear axle. WIth 235/85 tires there is about 3/4 inch between the inner sidewall and the spring pack, so I'd have to swap it out anyway.

Whe he said hummer wheels, he means H1, not H2 wheels. H1 wheels have a high posifive offset and they work great with DRW front hubs on the front D60. For the rear, I think its a 14BFF SRW axle (slightly longer axle tubes) with DRW rear hubs... thats the widest configuration if I remember correctly...

[DetroitDan]

Been drilling out the studs and attempting to remove them with my easy outs. So far I haven't had any luck budging them. Need a better tool for grabbing and turning the easy outs. Went to Lowes and looked but couldn't find anything. It's only going to break the easy out anyway. Seriously frustrated at this point.

[ghettoluxury]

Originally Posted by DetroitDan

we'll see what happens if I can get this apart. Not like the broken studs are in something I could remove and replace.
Ghettoluxury, are you talking about fronts or rears regarding the hummer wheels? I thought in front it would set them out way too far on a hummer wheel. I've also read it's not good to cut off the drw adaptors and bolt the hub back on, they say it makes something too weak, idk why. In the rear I dont have enough room for anything, because of the narrow rear axle. WIth 235/85 tires there is about 3/4 inch between the inner sidewall and the spring pack, so I'd have to swap it out anyway.

If you use H1 Hummer bead lock rims, you want the dually hubs on your front 60 and dana 70 rear. I would run single wheel hubs on a 14 bolt and add spacers. Some guys run single wheel hubs from a 14 bolt on a 70 to get the widest axle possible.

I run turned down dually hubs on my truck and it gets put through more abuse in one day than a daily driver would see in 10 years. I have snapped chromoly axle shafts and not had a single problem with my hubs.

Originally Posted by DetroitDan

Been drilling out the studs and attempting to remove them with my easy outs. So far I haven't had any luck budging them. Need a better tool for grabbing and turning the easy outs. Went to Lowes and looked but couldn't find anything. It's only going to break the easy out anyway. Seriously frustrated at this point.

PB Blaster and a torch are your friend. If you dont have access to a torch pull the knuckle off and take it to your local weld shop.

[ghettoluxury]

Here are pictures of my hubs.

[Mr. 250r]

I'm in the same boat my 10 bolt held up 110% under 38.5s and alot of abuse put in a d60 death wobble quite annoying might swap in the 10 bolt for awhile and I have nothing against ifs I've seen it hold up to everything except truck pulls and rides better
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[DetroitDan]

well, I have the new studs ordered from ORD. No idea how long it's going to take to get them, I also emailed them to ask a question about them, no response. Guess I'll try calling them today. I gave up on the easy-outs, undid the tierod, caliper, and lower balljoint last night. Got a hubsocket from Advance, today once I get enough coffee in my veins I'm going to go out and finish pulling the knuckle off, then I'll either take it to my local welding shop, or to a machine shop. Welder is a heck of a lot closer, so I hope he's around today.

Everybody is telling me not to use the lift block, and that dropped pitman arms or draglinks are much safer. I guess I'll have to look into that, but for now I just need it back on the road. I will address the issue again before trying to run 37s.

Ghetto, any more pictures? What did you do after the machine work, just use longer studs to put the wheels right on there where the rotors go? Look plenty strong to me, if anything there's less leverage than with a DRW adaptor way out at the end. IDK why the thread I was reading says you shouldn't do it. Also, I'm very intrigued by the DRW front hub/ H1 wheel combo. I was assuming I'd have to find and buy 16.5 wheels to work, although I often see the military tires for sale with the beadlocks. Not the prettiest wheels, but hey they're cheap and if they work good it beats paying a ton for chrome or aluminum. They certainly look tough. I want to see a picture of H1 rims on a drw front, I cant imagine how it wouldnt stick out a mile, even with all that negative offset. My wheel mounting surface is nearly outside the fender now.

Boy, it would be grreat to use those wheels, leave the whole front end alone (once I fix it and put it back together) and just swap out the rear axle. In case I didn't make it clear, I have a fleetside box on top of a cab & chassis, so my rear axle is the very narrow corporate 14 bolt. Which axle should I swap in? A Dana 70 or wide Corporate 14? Or what about a SRW 14 bolt? I cant remember what years had 70s and what had C14s, but any 4.10 fullfloater should work as far as bolting in, even a 3/4 ton, it's just getting the wheel spacing right.

[mcmlxix]

New and Used whels...
http://www.trailworthyfab.com/H1-Hummer-Wheels/

some info HERE about width

and some pics...

[DetroitDan]

cool, that first pic looks something like my truck, minus the hacked up dually bedside. Doesnt look like its got enough lift for those 36s, in fact it looks like a 2wd. Second picture looks more like the height of my truck, I've got 6 inch springs in the front with 4 inch blocks in the rear. With the big 1 ton spring pack and the rake it Chevys normally have, I find that it sits level front to rear now, pretty happy with it. Those 37s don't look too monstrous, I was a little worried I'd look like it was too big to drive on the road.

Not sticking out too far in the front, be nice if I didnt have to buy fender flares. If I did, then I'd want a wide enough rear so the flares would match up. Do you know what rearend they have in those trucks?

[ghettoluxury]

After the mackining I drill out the threaded holes that the rotor bolted to and beat in studs from a srw hub (through the back side of the rotor). The thread said not to do it because that part of the hub is welded on and not cast like a srw hub. They are plenty strong, we play tug-a-truck with them and have never had problems. I do not have any other pics but the next time I have the wheel off i will get some for you.

The first pic is a factory Dana 70 rear axle and it is 2wd. That truck is a good example for you because the front width is the same as your dually 60.

[DetroitDan]

I'm getting excited now. If I swap my C&C rear for a dually pickup rear, I could conceivably swap back and forth between 37s and my dually wheels. I'd just have to have dually fenders for the drw...that would be a problem. But, anyway, I'm pretty psyched because I thought I couldn't use either one of my axles if I went to SRW and 37s.

[70custom20]

Originally Posted by mcmlxix

I would consider replacing the steering block... Thats the first thing I did when rebuilding my D60. I chose a springless design so I can set the preload on the kingpins.... there is Crossover OR Crossover with High Steer

http://northwestfab.3dcartstores.com...-Kit_p_94.html

Does crossover steering help with the death wobble problem? As far as the steering block, are you saying you took the lift block off, out from under the steering arm?

[BLAZERMAN]

Originally Posted by DetroitDan

I'm getting excited now. If I swap my C&C rear for a dually pickup rear, I could conceivably swap back and forth between 37s and my dually wheels. I'd just have to have dually fenders for the drw...that would be a problem. But, anyway, I'm pretty psyched because I thought I couldn't use either one of my axles if I went to SRW and 37s.

You can just change your rear hubs out for a set of SRW hubs, your C&C rear is the same width as a SRW rear...they even use the same axle shafts..only difference is in the hubs.

[mcmlxix]

Originally Posted by 70custom20

Does crossover steering help with the death wobble problem? As far as the steering block, are you saying you took the lift block off, out from under the steering arm?

Here is a pic of a lift block. While not a cause of death wobble or dangerous, it's putting additional stress on the steering arm. It also uses the factory tension spring. If you're not running huge tires, like 37" or larger, it shouldn't be an issue. I like the idea of eliminating the spring and being able to set preload on the king pins.

Cross over helps eliminate (or tame) bump steer on a lifted vehicle...

[BLAZERMAN]

I agree on getting rid of that block, I've used Dodge Dana 60 steering arms on several of my trucks and they work perfect with a 4" lift. Since the Dodge arm is tapered for the TRE from the oposite side than the Chevy version there is plenty of meat there to retaper for the bigger GM TRE.

[mcmlxix]

So how did everything turn out?

[manimal]

For the death wobble, you may want to check/replace your tie rod ends. A steering stabilizer will only mask the problem.

[SunSoaked]

I was provided a brand new off the lot 05 dodge 3/4 4x4 at work and it suffered the "death wobble" from day one with 14 miles on the odo. Other co workers with the same truck had the same issue. They were repeatedly sent to the dealer under warrenty but never was fixed. We had to learn to live with it for the past 7 years until they were replaced with F250's. It had to be a design problem with the dana 60 front axles, replacing brand new parts with more brand new parts never fixed anything.

[DetroitDan]

Well, here's the update. I still hate my Dana 60. I did, finally, find the cause of the sketchy steering upon braking. I've done wheelbearings on both sides, one tierod, and finally two new calipers and pads, even though the old ones looked good. When the new calipers didnt fix it, I was pretty ticked. While bleeding them I noticed the passenger side was squirting good, the drivers side would only dribble. Which coincides with the rightward yank.. So, I suspected a bad hose or blockage of some kind, and planned to replace the hose and steel line when I got back (even though they also look good). Come to find out, the steel line from the block to the hose was caught up under the washer of a large bolt I put in when I installed the lower plow frame last winter. My own damn fault, I should have been more careful. I remember bending the line out of the way to fit the bolt, but it must have crept back up just enough to get caught when I tightened it. So now thats fixed, and it stops decent.

On to the steering block..Installing the new super-duper long studs in the replacement knuckle (mine wasnt saveable) was no fun. Had to buy a couple of big C-clamps to try to compress the arm down enough over that big kingpin spring to catch a nut on the stud. After much swearing and clamps popping off, I got it on and found that the stupid ORD studs come with jam nuts. Nice, soft thread, so that when you tighten them they strip and supposedly lock in place. Well, they strip all right, but when you havent got the arm tightened down yet. I used two regular nuts I had and got it done, but one of the studs got ruined by stripping jam nuts on it. Had to use my one remaining stud that didnt break from the former setup. You just can't tighten down against that spring pressure with stupid jam nuts. I dont know how they expect you to get it all together, but I would recommend not using the jam nuts at all, or if you want to, get it fully installed first with real nuts, then swap them one at a time for the stupid jam nuts. I was using a torque wrench, and the jam nuts were stripping at 40 lbs ft!

Ok, so I test drove it and it seemed ok, expect for the swervy braking and a little wandery steering. (Here's where I made another mistake) Prior to test driving, I torqued the studs/nuts down to 80 lbs ft. Supposed to be 70-90. Before leaving, and before rechecking them, I put a little white paint on each one, so I could easily tell if they were backing off. Should have rechecked them prior to the white paint. Upon arrival after towing my camper a white knuckled 75 miles. I checked and the white paint was intact, but the block would squirm when you rocked the steering wheel. Got it all back home, checking to see if a stud had broken and realized 3 were a little loose. Retorqued them to 90, should have done that before applying the white paint. Drives much better now. Still considering changing the block back to stock and adding a drop pitman arm, but for now it seems all good.

Wife wants me to get a late model 2500hd so I don't have to tow the camper with a 30 year old truck. Getting a little tired of the hassles. I am too, but I also like fixing things myself. Except Dana 60s, I still hate them.

So yesterday I go to a slimy used car lot to look at a 2500hd. Sleazy Guido wanted to screw me over so I said Good Day and tried to leave. Naturally, my Blazer wouldn't start. Had to get it towed home, some important wiring for the starter burned up.