Wet sanding and orange peel

[FlameOut]

I was working on my freshly painted cab (two tone white/blue - in the thread 'Basecoat is to light'), trying to get out the orange peel. I noticed it's worse with the white, which is the cheaper PPG Shopline (Omni) base (3 coats) and clear (4 coats). The blue is ProSpray and SPI Universal clear.

The SPI clear seems to wet sand very easily, and I get the milky consistency of the water while sanding. I'm not getting that with the Shopline clear.

Sanding is all done by hand. I thought about getting something like the #20325 3M Orbital Sander, but maybe that's not a good idea for a beginner.

First I went with 1000, then 1500 and finished with 2000. Then went with the wool pad on my Makita 9227 polisher and that Wizards Finishcut compound shown in the photo. Followed up with the maroon pad and the Meguiars 105. I never got to the yellow (white?) pad because some of the orange peel is still present (I never heard of Wizards compounds, but they was recommended by the place I buy my paint)

How do I know when I should be moving onto the next step? Like when sanding with the 1000 grit, when is time time to move to the 1500 and then subsequent steps? The correct steps for the pads is wool, then maroon then white? And how do you get things like the A pillars cut and buffed? I'm afraid of burning right through everything is I use a pad on the polisher

[ItsRandy]

Originally Posted by FlameOut

I was working on my freshly painted cab (two tone white/blue - in the thread 'Basecoat is to light'), trying to get out the orange peel. I noticed it's worse with the white, which is the cheaper PPG Shopline (Omni) base (3 coats) and clear (4 coats). The blue is ProSpray and SPI Universal clear.

The SPI clear seems to wet sand very easily, and I get the milky consistency of the water while sanding. I'm not getting that with the Shopline clear.

Sanding is all done by hand. I thought about getting something like the #20325 3M Orbital Sander, but maybe that's not a good idea for a beginner.

First I went with 1000, then 1500 and finished with 2000. Then went with the wool pad on my Makita 9227 polisher and that Wizards Finishcut compound shown in the photo. Followed up with the maroon pad and the Meguiars 105. I never got to the yellow (white?) pad because some of the orange peel is still present (I never heard of Wizards compounds, but they was recommended by the place I buy my paint)

How do I know when I should be moving onto the next step? Like when sanding with the 1000 grit, when is time time to move to the 1500 and then subsequent steps? The correct steps for the pads is wool, then maroon then white? And how do you get things like the A pillars cut and buffed? I'm afraid of burning right through everything is I use a pad on the polisher

Attachment 1296267

Attachment 1296268

I am a man with very little experience, I can only tell you what I did. You move to finer grit paper to remove the sanding scratches from the heavier grit paper you used to do the work (i.e. remove orange peel). When the area you are working is free of imperfections, move to the finer grit paper. The way I judged that was to dry the area I was working and look across the surface, if the area still had shiny "dimples" the area needed more work. I have to tell you, I burnt through in a couple of small places but I did that with the buffer not the sand paper. I don't think you should be afraid of burning through...it may happen and (I am assuming you did the painting) you can fix it just as I will be doing.
Put dish soap in the water, soak the paper, use a block, change the paper often, use a spray bottle to keep the area wet and change the water in your bucket often to be sure it stays clean.
I am sure someone (hugger) will chime in and give you some pro advise.

[Jarwood]

Be carefuil with the 1000 grit. It will cut fast. If i use 1000 grit its not for long. Then 1500, 3000, and last 5000 grit. To me it helps with the buffing later. I buff with a cutting compound and usually it shines great, but I always buff with a scratch removal then polishing compound. Meguirs is a good product.

[69chevytrucker]

i think i will need 36 grit 40 grit 60 grit to fix this mess i thought at first bad prep but i tried to shoot on another piece i think i got a bad batch of paint first can not even close color wise bad thing is it was going to be the last coat of paint and now my truck is f#@ked up bad paint has fish eyes and is glossy and it is suposed to be flat matte but i can see myself in it i hope i can just sand off the last coat and re shoot with another can of paint of course

[69chevytrucker]

worst is i didnt need to do one more coat but i thought what the heck boy was i stupid
this it what it looked like before that coat

[FlameOut]

I still had some of those shiny 'dimples' when I moved on to the next step. That is probably one of my problems. I also stopped at 2000 grit. I guess I should go those extra steps up to 5000?

[hugger6933]

My chimes are out of tune when it comes to buffing. That is something I just don't do much of. I know most of you have your eyebrows all curled up but it just doesn't happen @ M& M [much]. But since I've been called out and I'm always willing to lean a hand here goes. First off since you are a little nervous about the burn aspect of this lets start off with some 1500 grit instead of 1000. Yes it will take longer to get it flat and yes your arms will look like Popeye's but hey Olive Olye thought he was hot. Now go to the store when getting your other stuff, ask for a couple of squeegees, one small semi rigid and the other soft and flexible. Wrap the paper around the soft one it will eliminate the finger marks that can easily left in sanding if not careful, the other to wipe down the water and soap mixture to see where you are as to sanding the panel flat and smooth[69 trucker, I hope your right here this will help you tomorrow too!] OK, also with a squirt bottle I use Dawn dish soap and water mixed in the bottle to spray the panel before sanding ,also soak the paper 20-30 min. before sanding will start. This will soften the paper so it doesn't dig into the surface it will slide upon it. Remember to move in "X" patterns IE:left lower to upper right.Then right lower to upper left, that also will help cut down on the scratches.After you "cut" the clear then you can compound it with the first part of the system you chose [they name them a little differently for each company]. Then after wiping that back down, Start all over again with the next step up, probably 2000 grit. All through the same steps as outlined then move up again, again changing grits this time to maybe 3000. by now your really getting close, then go BAM!!! 5000 grit and the last polish and then sealer wax if you have any energy left you will think ooohhh that is why hugger 6933 says that is why they call it body work not body fun. Jim

[ItsRandy]

Originally Posted by hugger6933

My chimes are out of tune when it comes to buffing. That is something I just don't do much of. I know most of you have your eyebrows all curled up but it just doesn't happen @ M& M [much]. But since I've been called out and I'm always willing to lean a hand here goes. First off since you are a little nervous about the burn aspect of this lets start off with some 1500 grit instead of 1000. Yes it will take longer to get it flat and yes your arms will look like Popeye's but hey Olive Olye thought he was hot. Now go to the store when getting your other stuff, ask for a couple of squeegees, one small semi rigid and the other soft and flexible. Wrap the paper around the soft one it will eliminate the finger marks that can easily left in sanding if not careful, the other to wipe down the water and soap mixture to see where you are as to sanding the panel flat and smooth[69 trucker, I hope your right here this will help you tomorrow too!] OK, also with a squirt bottle I use Dawn dish soap and water mixed in the bottle to spray the panel before sanding ,also soak the paper 20-30 min. before sanding will start. This will soften the paper so it doesn't dig into the surface it will slide upon it. Remember to move in "X" patterns IE:left lower to upper right.Then right lower to upper left, that also will help cut down on the scratches.After you "cut" the clear then you can compound it with the first part of the system you chose [they name them a little differently for each company]. Then after wiping that back down, Start all over again with the next step up, probably 2000 grit. All through the same steps as outlined then move up again, again changing grits this time to maybe 3000. by now your really getting close, then go BAM!!! 5000 grit and the last polish and then sealer wax if you have any energy left you will think ooohhh that is why hugger 6933 says that is why they call it body work not body fun. Jim

Jim...you didn't say "Happy Sanding". That's like Santa not saying "Ho, Ho, Ho".

[BigDan3131]

Hugger...why would you spend all that time sanding and compounding to just sand and compound again? That doesn't make any sense.

For me it depends on how fresh the clear is and what grit paper I use. For something that has been allowed to dry at least three days I sand with 1000 grit [but that's only because I shoot 4-6 coats of clear when I know it has to be cut and buffed] and you let the paper do the work on a small rubber/foam pad like this one: http://www.autorefinishsupply.com/So...1PK-p/sb-1.htm. I use the squeegee to wipe away the the water to see my progress and how flat I want the surface. You don't always want it flat because if your doing a factory style paintjob some amount of peel is necessary to achieve that look.

Side stepping the sanding for a minute. Take how ever much paper you think you need to sand with and soak it in a 5 gallon pail of water mixed with Dawn for at least 20 minutes, otherwise the paper will be too aggressive and bite into your soft clear to harshly.

Now after I sand it flat with the 1000 grit I wash the whole vehicle etc with warm soapy water and rinse it clean. Then I start with the 1500 and do the same wash routine then the 2000. For what you guys are painting here there really isn't any need to go finer as long as you use one system all the way thru like 3M. Anything other than 3M isn't really a pro level compounding system. Buy the compounds and the pads from a 3M source and they will last ten times longer than any of the cheaper brands.

For the novice on up I recommend using a foam compounding pad as its more forgiving than a wool pad. I can give a list of the pad numbers and compounds I use on a weekly basis if you want.

Lastly if your paint/clear was air dried and not dried in a heated booth you need to wait 90 days before you can wax, otherwise you will probably ruin your new paintjob. That includes car wash with wax in it, don't use it.

[IIGW]

if this is your first time wet sanding, id hire someone else to do it.
not being a jerk, but you will kill a paint job fast by burning through it.

also not knowing the product, or how it reacts to 'heat' form buffing and hardness when sanding, its a problem waiting to happen.

on almost every car i paint i use 1000 to start, 1200 and then 1500 and buff. i hard compound first, followed up by finesse, and then swirl remover.

thats my 2 cents

[FlameOut]

Thanks for all of the tips. I was also a little confused about sanding, then using compound, then move to a finer grit, then compound, then sand finer then compound etc. I was doing all of my sanding, then after my final grit (which was 2000 for me, I moved onto the maroon pad (skipped the wool this time) I think I should probably spend a little more time sanding. Also, the info about waiting 90 days if clear wasn't dried in a heated booth. The clear I'm having problems with is the PPG Omni. Maybe that is part of the problem, that I need to wait? The SPI clear is sanding great, and from what I was told, even air dried it can be sanded. This is from SPI's web site

UV clear buffs great. Always let it set overnight before buffing but small spots like a
door can be buffed in 2 hours @ 75° with Normal Activator if needed. Adjust buffing
times according to your air temperature and the activator you used

Here's where I'm at now. Still need to do final 2 steps, but it's much better now. Not perfect, but I'm learning (for me, hiring someone else to do it defeats the purpose. I did all of the body work and painting)

The before, right after clear


The after, 1000, 1500, 2000 and cut compound with maroon pad

[61K10]

FlameOut---looks pretty good to me, of course pics don't tell the whole story. I am a novice as well, you just don't learn to spray overnight. you are not going to get the results a pro and a state of art booth will get. Keep plugin along--looken good.

[BigDan3131]

The 90 days is just about waxing it only, not about cut and buff.

[ItsRandy]

If you hired out everything you were going to do for the first time, you wouldn't learn anything. Besides, most guys who will do the cut-n-buff for you (on something they didn't paint) will not guaranty they won't burn through your paint. They don't know how much material has been applied.

[FlameOut]

I finally got my cab looking nice, and I moved on to a door and fender. I thought everything looked good last night, but when I tried wet sanding today, I just couldn't get it to look much better. I'm thinking maybe this is dust and not orange peel? I am painting in my garage and not a paint booth

I did run into a problem when spraying my clear. My gun (Devilbus Plus) would kind of sputter. There were no problems after I cleaned it and was spraying lacquer through it before I moved onto the clear. I'm probably going to have to redo both door and fender with base and clear. I was getting so aggressive trying to get it flat that I went through 4 coats of clear in a few spots, These are both repop items, that vere EDP coated. I first scuff/sanded with 120 grit, then epoxy primer then 2 coats of 2K that I block sanded, then before applying the sealer, sanded with 500

To repaint, 1000 grit the clear before I base coat should be good?

[IIGW]

It’s hard to tell exactly in the pic posted, but it looks like you’re not gettin a good 'wet' coat. It’s very orange peely, and probably not enough material on it. There is nothing worng painting in a garage compared to a booth. I actually like my garage better than a booth as I have more room to work with.
From the above pic, id knock it down with 1000, and then add two more wet coats to it. I’ve used 600 to knock clear down that I was going to reclear, but I wouldn’t suggest anything rougher than 1000 for your job, just because its hard to say how thick your clear is.
I also have a nice sata gun that I hardly use. My goto guns are the 22 dollar ‘purple’ hvlp guns at harbor freight. As goofy as that sounds, they spray great. My last few custom jobs I have done have all been with the HF guns. They just work, and if they act up throw it away an grab a new one.
Post up your reclear pics so we can see how it turned out..

[FlameOut]

Originally Posted by IIGW

It’s hard to tell exactly in the pic posted, but it looks like you’re not gettin a good 'wet' coat. It’s very orange peely, and probably not enough material on it. There is nothing worng painting in a garage compared to a booth. I actually like my garage better than a booth as I have more room to work with.
From the above pic, id knock it down with 1000, and then add two more wet coats to it. I’ve used 600 to knock clear down that I was going to reclear, but I wouldn’t suggest anything rougher than 1000 for your job, just because its hard to say how thick your clear is.
I also have a nice sata gun that I hardly use. My goto guns are the 22 dollar ‘purple’ hvlp guns at harbor freight. As goofy as that sounds, they spray great. My last few custom jobs I have done have all been with the HF guns. They just work, and if they act up throw it away an grab a new one.
Post up your reclear pics so we can see how it turned out..

I had the door and fender looking pretty good and then I found out I had the two tone laid out wrong. It was a bit off, so I figured I could remask, scuff op the paint and re spray. It looked pretty good for about 30 minutes, then the paint started peeling off and I also could see some of the blue bleeding through the white. I resanded everything with 120 and re sprayed epoxy primer (because I had some bare metal showing) That is where I'm at right now. I might lay down some 2k today.

I also use that HF purple gun for all of my primers. I first heard about it a few years back on the teamchevelle forums. I'm surprised how well it is for primer. Especially the epoxy. I wish I could find a 1.8 tip for it for the 2k stuff though

[72step]

I just finished my first paint job. What worked best for me was 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000, 3M White foam pad with 3M Compound followed by 3m Black foam pad with the black machine finish polishing compound then 3m hand glaze by hand. I had originally tried the 1500 2000 then buff and I just didn't like the results effort--nothing about it. After sanding with 3000 you can literally just hand polish with a microfiber cloth and compound so needless to say you need very little buffer effort plus you can hand polish around delicate areas. I used the TCP Global 3 gun setup and the only thing I couldn't get was to get the clear to shoot flat and shiny but after the buffing it came out satisfactory. I wouldn't call it concurs show quality but I've definitely seen much worse at local car shows and I've definitely paid for much worse work from a body shop in my past. I am very happy with the results of my very first start to finish paint job--More like a restoration job. Took a good chunk of my summer--all my spare time namely. LOL

[tinydb84]

Where are the assembled pics?? Don't hold out on us!

[72step]

Originally Posted by tinydb84

Where are the assembled pics?? Don't hold out on us!

Sorry, still haven't gotten that far. I need to work on my custom composite bed floor-then I can install the bed and then get it together. I will hopefully get to that this coming weekend.

[ItsRandy]

Originally Posted by 72step

I just finished my first paint job. What worked best for me was 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000, 3M White foam pad with 3M Compound followed by 3m Black foam pad with the black machine finish polishing compound then 3m hand glaze by hand. I had originally tried the 1500 2000 then buff and I just didn't like the results effort--nothing about it. After sanding with 3000 you can literally just hand polish with a microfiber cloth and compound so needless to say you need very little buffer effort plus you can hand polish around delicate areas. I used the TCP Global 3 gun setup and the only thing I couldn't get was to get the clear to shoot flat and shiny but after the buffing it came out satisfactory. I wouldn't call it concurs show quality but I've definitely seen much worse at local car shows and I've definitely paid for much worse work from a body shop in my past. I am very happy with the results of my very first start to finish paint job--More like a restoration job. Took a good chunk of my summer--all my spare time namely. LOL

Looks good! Much more fun/satisfying when you do it yourself. Just wait...when you start driving your truck people are gonna' ask if you will paint their cars/trucks. It always feels funny when they ask me.