Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options

[Nufsed]

Hey folks, I usually hang out over in 60-66 but I'm up against some confusing info on a '71 I'm looking into.
first: the truck is on the East Coast and I'm in TX.
The current is the second owner and he bought from the estate, so no contact or conversation with the (deceased) original owner.
I've received a *bunch* of pictures. I've looked at all the details to the extent that I am able.

This '71 is a low-mile "survivor" with a repaint but not a restoration.... and no Krylon, anywhere.
The truck a *nice* 71 C10 2wd 350 TH swb
The truck has Factory AC.
The weird bit: The truck has all its docs, SPID, even the window sticker.
Everything is awesome except that the AC is not listed.
I'm not new at this; I've checked all the indicators for correctness that I can see. The VIN tag has the right rivets. The S.P.I.D. list matches everything on the truck saved for the air.
The AC is clearly all of the correct factory pieces, and would appear factory installed.
Now, back in the day, the dealers could buy "up-option kits" to install items that were not ordered on a particular car, for example cruise control. The Up-option kit had ALL the required pieces to install the cruise exactly like the cruise in the factory installed units, right down to the rubber grommets. Once installed at the dealer, you could never tell that the cruise was not factory.
I'm aware that dealer installs of "hangdown" AC was prevalent at the time (I recall $400 for it) but my question is this: Does anyone know if the factory ever offered an Up-Option Kit to install the **factory** Air? It would've been crazy expensive and very involved to install, but I'm left wondering if it was ever offered...and maybe done to this truck??
I'm certain the firewall is different, so it would be really odd.
Anyone have any ideas to explain this install, assuming the cab and VIN and docs are legit?
(trying to post pics...standby)

[57taskforce]

I can't say for sure but I doubt it because the cabs are different from non a/c to a/c both the dash and firewall. Somebody probably added it later in its life by modifying the passenger firewall. I've never heard of a dealer doin this but that don't mean much I suppose.

[Stocker]

This is probably a dumb question, but by any chance could the SPID be an incorrect replacement and not the original? This would assume the A/C is factory installed.

[davepl]

I have the dealer addon catalog for '70 and the dealer-optioned AC is an under-dash unit. Your truck is presumably an AC cab, right? That's a very involved conversion if the truck wasn't built that way originally.

It's always conceivable the PO got a donor truck and really wanted AC. If it's done well enough that you can't tell, unless it's a super-rare truck that you need to fully document for some reason, I wouldn't take it as a negative.

[davepl]

Here's the page:

[jocko]

pretty sure this would be a previous owner add on - a cab swap - or a SPID/gb door swap. Not something a dealer would do. As pointed out above, any dealer add-on a/c was normally under-dash.

[Lanman1972]

My 1972 has dealer installed A/C with documentation. My unit is very different from factory but is not an under dash unit. Has side vents and center vent, but the dash is different and so is under the hood. The controls for the unit are on the center vent unit. Not sure if this helps. I am not sure your situation would stop me from buying if all the numbers would allow it to be plated without DMV problems.

[100%Chevy]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Hey folks, I usually hang out over in 60-66 but I'm up against some confusing info on a '71 I'm looking into.
first: the truck is on the East Coast and I'm in TX.
The current is the second owner and he bought from the estate, so no contact or conversation with the (deceased) original owner.
I've received a *bunch* of pictures. I've looked at all the details to the extent that I am able.

This '71 is a low-mile "survivor" with a repaint but not a restoration.... and no Krylon, anywhere.
The truck a *nice* 71 C10 2wd 350 TH swb
The truck has Factory AC.
The weird bit: The truck has all its docs, SPID, even the window sticker.
Everything is awesome except that the AC is not listed.
I'm not new at this; I've checked all the indicators for correctness that I can see. The VIN tag has the right rivets. The S.P.I.D. list matches everything on the truck saved for the air.
The AC is clearly all of the correct factory pieces, and would appear factory installed.
Now, back in the day, the dealers could buy "up-option kits" to install items that were not ordered on a particular car, for example cruise control. The Up-option kit had ALL the required pieces to install the cruise exactly like the cruise in the factory installed units, right down to the rubber grommets. Once installed at the dealer, you could never tell that the cruise was not factory.
I'm aware that dealer installs of "hangdown" AC was prevalent at the time (I recall $400 for it) but my question is this: Does anyone know if the factory ever offered an Up-Option Kit to install the **factory** Air? It would've been crazy expensive and very involved to install, but I'm left wondering if it was ever offered...and maybe done to this truck??
I'm certain the firewall is different, so it would be really odd.
Anyone have any ideas to explain this install, assuming the cab and VIN and docs are legit?
(trying to post pics...standby)

The control cable on yours(in your picture) is in the wrong place and should be big enough (1/2") for the rubber grommet.
I've just finished adding factory air to my 68. It is a long, time consuming job.Especially the firewall work.
mike.

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by 100%Chevy

The control cable on yours(in your picture) is in the wrong place and should be big enough (1/2") for the rubber grommet.
I've just finished adding factory air to my 68. It is a long, time consuming job.Especially the firewall work.
mike.

Yep, dead giveaway. Somebody went to a lot of trouble adding factory AC to that truck. Here is the control cable hole without the grommet.

[100%Chevy]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

Yep, dead giveaway. Somebody went to a lot of trouble adding factory AC to that truck. Here is the control cable hole without the grommet.

The hole used on the O.P.'s truck is used on the heat only trucks.

BYW,mines a 68,anniversary too!

[mike16]

it looks factory to me. there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.

Both of my trucks were purchased from the family of the origonal owners. no mods to increase values. but some options clearly origonal to the truck were not listed on the SPID for either truck. The reason I feal,certain that this is a mistake.... none of those ommitted options do anything to increase the value of the truck. Both trucks. And niether previos owner was aware of the spid plate in the glove box. none braged about the errors or hyped them up to increase sales appeal of the truck....both trucks.

regardless what the option is, it does not increase or decrease the likely hood that its ommission from the spid plate was other than a simple error.

in other words, AC is a big option and unlikely to be over looked when actually looking at the truck. But remember that its not the huge AC unit on the truck that was overlooked or ommitted in error. It was a single option listed on a spid plate, printed up in some room off the main assembly line that was ommitted.

Huge numbers of these trucks were comming off the assembly line each day, I read somewhere that GM hired an additional 6000 employees to work nights and week ends to fill orders. Vehicles comming off the line at that rate? do you, me or anybody else believe they had time to screw up a spid plate and reprint another corrected one.

I dont know. It would be very easy to tell if the cab is different from the origonal one ore it sombody added factory AC to thier cabe later.

look very closely at details and either possibility becomes clear. but dont discount a simple error of omission on the spid plate. Its happened enough that it does not defy belief.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mike16

there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.

I'm skeptical...

Originally Posted by mike16

in other words, AC is a big option and unlikely to be over looked when actually looking at the truck. But remember that its not the huge AC unit on the truck that was overlooked or ommitted in error. It was a single option listed on a spid plate, printed up in some room off the main assembly line that was ommitted.

...and here's why.

You seem to be under the misconception that there was a person sitting in a room somewhere typing up SPID labels as the truck went by, trying to match the label to the content.

That is not correct; the option database was created and loaded at the beginning of the model year. The option content for the specific truck was downloaded to the final assembly location system after the dealer order was approved. The information was "broadcast", or disseminated, and printed through the whole plant at the same time to each area of interest, specifically the chassis, motor line, body, and paint build sheets, including printing the window sticker (Mulroney label). SPID labels were broadcast at the same time and printed well in advance of the vehicle arriving in station.

Although "Air Conditioning" looks like one line on the SPID it is actually a complex option affecting several areas of build - body, trim, engine and final line. As such - if it's not on the build sheet - it's not going on the truck. If it's not on the build sheet - it's not on the SPID.

I know that mistakes get made (in Flint the guy that installed the SPID labels worked for me) but I can see that on a simple, stand alone option (like a trailer hitch); not on something as integrated across the vehicle as A/C.

A disconnect there would bring the process to a screeching halt.

Originally Posted by mike16

Huge numbers of these trucks were comming off the assembly line each day, I read somewhere that GM hired an additional 6000 employees to work nights and week ends to fill orders. Vehicles comming off the line at that rate? do you, me or anybody else believe they had time to screw up a spid plate and reprint another corrected one.

60 an hour, to be precise, in most of the plants I worked in. Or one completed truck per minute, leaving the operator about 45 seconds to grab the part(s), make the installation and reload for the next truck.

That's why no "thinking" was required as the line was running. Everything was laid out months and years in advance, such that all the assembler had to do was read the build sheet and install the indicated part.

That includes the pre-printed SPID label.

K

[mike16]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I'm skeptical...



...and here's why.

You seem to be under the misconception that there was a person sitting in a room somewhere typing up SPID labels as the truck went by, trying to match the label to the content.

That is not correct; the option database was created and loaded at the beginning of the model year. The option content for the specific truck was downloaded to the final assembly location system after the dealer order was approved. The information was "broadcast", or disseminated, and printed through the whole plant at the same time to each area of interest, specifically the chassis, motor line, body, and paint build sheets, including printing the window sticker (Mulroney label). SPID labels were broadcast at the same time and printed well in advance of the vehicle arriving in station.

Although "Air Conditioning" looks like one line on the SPID it is actually a complex option affecting several areas of build - body, trim, engine and final line. As such - if it's not on the build sheet - it's not going on the truck. If it's not on the build sheet - it's not on the SPID.

I know that mistakes get made (in Flint the guy that installed the SPID labels worked for me) but I can see that on a simple, stand alone option (like a trailer hitch); not on something as integrated across the vehicle as A/C.

A disconnect there would bring the process to a screeching halt.



60 an hour, to be precise, in most of the plants I worked in. Or one completed truck per minute, leaving the operator about 45 seconds to grab the part(s), make the installation and reload for the next truck.

That's why no "thinking" was required as the line was running. Everything was laid out months and years in advance, such that all the assembler had to do was read the build sheet and install the indicated part.

That includes the pre-printed SPID label.

K

You dont convince me at all. I'm under No miconception. What ever additional details you may wish to contribute does not mean I am wrong simply because You contributed them and I did not. Perhaps your too busy trying to prove I am wrong when you ought to be explaining how you are so absolutely 100% certain that in this particular case the spid is accurate and the truck is wrong. And while your at it, explain how in every other case that the spid is wrong, the spid is actually right and the truck is wrong.

Nice try. but dazzling us with obscure details that you alone are privy to does not make any of us wrong because your facts cannot be confirmed. Because I dont know which room the spids were printed off in does not mean Im wrong when I state they were printed in some room somewhere.I had relatives working at the GM plant in Wilmington Delaware. When friends and family ordered up a vehicle (impala) it got loaded with many additional options not on any order sheet. So there are several possible reasons that options may appear on a vehicle and not on the spid . You with your vast knowlege of every minute detail You cannot account for every possibility and variation. People print spid's and people make mistakes. And you wernt there standing over somebody's sholder watching. I at least gave creadence to the possibility that it could be faked and its easily detected. You seem to insist that I am wrong rather than giving creadence to either possibility. You could not possibly be everywhere at once all the time through out your million year long carreer at GM. Ever one makes mistakes. The guy off in some room that only you know of, printing off spids, he could have made mistakes. I certainly can and have made mistakes, And you certainly have made mistakes. Why not limit your contributions the factual ones, to the subject rather than trying to fault others.

just exactly what evidence do you have that his spid is right and the truck is wrong. I'm looking at the same pictures you are and at least give consideration to either possibility.And do me a favor. next time you see the guy.... whos sholder you wer standing over....in 68 and 72 when my trucks came off the line, tell him to come over and remove those accessories that are on my truck and not on my spid plate.

Sorry but I'm not buying the fact that you were everywhere at once all the time watching everything everybody did. I'm noy convinced. Even if the ac on this truck is faked, you have not convinced me at all that spids are always right. Show your proof.

[bruceman1968]

Nufsed, Where was this pic taken? It doesn't appear to be attached to the glove box door.

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by bruceman1968

Nufsed, Where was this pic taken? It doesn't appear to be attached to the glove box door.
Attachment 1527196

Good eye; it is not on the glove box door. The seller explained that a corner was lifting and he thought it would be better preserved if he removed it and stored it with the truck's original papers. Now, some folks will read this and just scream "oh, likely story" "its a fake" "the guy's a fraud" but, though I'm as jaded as they come, I can't give that much weight to the SPID's location alone. The fact is, if he had *tossed* the thing in the trash, I wouldn't be buggin' you guys about it...I probably would've bought the truck(!) by now. He does have the original title, actual invoice, (signed paid in full) owners manual, protecto-plate on its card and the SPID folded up inside.
Obviously, we all see the SPID removal as heretical and damning. I don't know that it makes *everything wrong* about the truck. The VIN plate is pretty convincing but I haven't traveled across country to verify the stamped VIN on the frame or other locations that you guys can tell me the location of.
Frame rail right by the power steering pump, right? where else? Is the VIN stamped directly into the cab metal somewhere?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mike16

...you ought to be explaining how you are so absolutely 100% certain that in this particular case the spid is accurate and the truck is wrong.

Already did, I thought: the window sticker and the SPID match. That seems pretty conclusive to me.

Originally Posted by mike16

The guy off in some room that only you know of, printing off spids, he could have made mistakes...

We've already established that people don't print SPIDs, computers do. And they are printed line-side, not in a separate room.

Originally Posted by mike16

When friends and family ordered up a vehicle (impala) it got loaded with many additional options not on any order sheet.

Stand alone options, like a trailer hitch, or a different seat. Not highly integrated complex options like air conditioning.

Originally Posted by mike16

Show your proof

Is it easier (and a better use of our time) for me to show you 40 million SPIDs that are correct, or for you to produce two that are incorrect?

Originally Posted by mike16

You dont convince me at all. I'm under No miconception. etc etc

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was claiming to be everywhere at once. That was certainly not my intent. One doesn't need to be everywhere at once to understand how the process works, and its limitations.

It only feels like it has been a million years. I will say that I have either been employed by or launched product in about a dozen GM assembly plants over the last 38 years (Flint, Pontiac, Ft Wayne, Oshawa, Janesville, St Louis, Arlington, Silao, Wentzville, Detroit-Hamtramck, Mishawaka plus a couple prototype build shops and one skunk works, to be precise). That's separate from leading about a half dozen vehicle programs from clay concepts to full volume production. Plus time at both the Milford and the Desert Proving Ground. I'd love to visit with your relatives from Wilmington and swap stories if ever given the chance.

As I already mentioned the guy who installed the SPID labels in Flint worked for me when I was a supervisor on the line; I will let the other readers come to their own conclusions.

If you ever make it to the Motor City I'd be happy to show you around.

K

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by mike16

... there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.

Both of my trucks were purchased from the family of the origonal owners. no mods to increase values. but some options clearly origonal to the truck were not listed on the SPID for either truck...

Care to provide specifcs including pictures, years, assembly plants, and VIN range within a thousand units for each?

[truckster]

I'm kind of thinking along the lines of Mike16. I had a customer's brand-new 75 Camaro come in with a complaint of a clunk in the driver's door. I pulled the panel and out came an empty whiskey bottle. These were mass-produced, and done in an age before computers and bar codes. Could a clerk have missed a line on a SPID? It's not too unlikely.

[special-K]

I have "heard" of people insisting the dealer add "factory air" to a truck before. I have always been skeptical of that, but it certainly is possible to do...for the right amount of money

[Nufsed]

Wow! thanks for the replies, folks. I agree that an omission from the SPID is most likely what's going on here.
The other bit is the "window sticker" where the actual money is tallied also omits it. That is especially weird.
Of course, there was never an actual window sticker on these trucks in the showrooms, but it's the equivalent doc.
Maybe the guy just got a steal on the truck due to a clerical error?
Evidence that backs up the AC being factory is the inclusion of other items that were likely prerequisites for AC trucks:V8 engine, tinted glass and "special insulation" included in the "Z62 cust comf & conv eq" package.

Speaking with the current (second) owner (who has owned it for a number of years) I don't get any indication of misrepresentation. He simply doesn't get why it's not on the papers, either.

I've been looking at these trucks intently for a couple of years, now, looking for the "right one" and Oh, Lordy, I have been finding a LOT of 'kit' trucks.
Cut frames, engine swaps, driveline mismatches, etc. And, of course, LMC has sold more Cheyenne packages than Chevrolet, it seems.
This place is a great resource.
Some great info and help on this sight!

On the subject of these trucks generally, another detail question: I know about the mirror boss that indicates a pre-72 cab.... are there any other details that will call out cab year differences within the 67-71s?
Are there differences in the cab that will indicate that it was originally built as a stepside or cab/chassis?
(On the 60-66 trucks there is a filler panel used on the cab that is for SS only)

As as token of appreciation, let me offer my Brake info as a resource, perhaps, that you guys may find helpful in your projects
http://www.pbase.com/nufsed/drumbrake

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Wow! thanks for the replies, folks. I agree that an omission from the SPID is most likely what's going on here.

I don't.

See above.

Incidently, there are Federal regulations governing the inclusion of options.

If a person gets an option they didn't pay for (...like a trailer hitch...) - that's ok.

If a person pays for an option but doesn't get it - that is a violation of Federal Trade Commission rules and GM could be subject to recalls, fines and sanctions.

If we accidentally built a truck without A/C that was supposed to have it - we wouldn't attempt a repair. We would simply build another truck (with a new VIN) with the right option content. The incorrect truck would go to dealer stock or to dealer auction.

K

[Nufsed]

Adding a couple of pics
which may help... or not
and my apologies as I thought these had posted in the first post but something went sideways and they didn't post.
Trying again:

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Adding a couple of pics
which may help... or not
and my apologies as I thought these had posted in the first post but something went sideways and they didn't post.
Trying again:

Notice the SPID matches the window sticker? That tells me all the build documents (body, chassis, trim and final line build sheets, Mulroney label and SPID) would all be lined up as saying "no A/C", since they all come from the same central database.

Somebody went to a lot of trouble to add air to that truck after it left the vehicle assembly plant.

K

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I don't.
See above.
My vote is a cab change somewhere along the line.
K

Was AC ever included in a "package" and not spelled out on the sheet?


Since you were there, I've often wondered, if something went wrong, and a part broke or the engine wouldn't start right up, what did they do? What if someone fell or just didn't install their part on one, did the next guy *shut the line down*? or did these trucks get sidelined and repaired/finished somehow?
I've always wondered how lines like that work.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Was AC ever included in a "package" and not spelled out on the sheet?

No.

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Since you were there, I've often wondered, if something went wrong, and a part broke or the engine wouldn't start right up, what did they do? What if someone fell or just didn't install their part on one, did the next guy *shut the line down*? or did these trucks get sidelined and repaired/finished somehow?
I've always wondered how lines like that work.

Nope. The line just kept going.

If a truck wouldn't start - they had these little gas powered "mule" tugs that had push bumpers on them. They would push the disabled vehicle over into the "deadhead" repair hole without shutting the line down.

Pretty much anything would get pushed to the back. If parts didn't fit or were wrong they'd throw them in the pickup box. If the cab didn't set down or it had a wrong box they'd just leave it and it would ride all the way down the line.

We had a library of tire/wheel assemblies such that if a truck was built with a wrong axle then the corresponding wrong tire/wheel assembly would be installed. The truck would be repaired out back in a "heavy repair" stall.

The only way it would shut down (during regular production) was if further damage would ensue, like if a tool got stuck on a vehicle and the air hose was getting stretched to the point of being pulled off.

There are extra "relief" personnel around to fill in if someone gets sick or gets called out on an emergency. If you are really desparate then the "quality man" (an hourly right hand man) or even the salaried foreman himself gets on the job to keep going, but you would not shut the main line down.

Shut downs during the beginning of of the model year (new product launch) are fairly common at first, and are budgeted for. Shutdowns in the rear areas of the plant (body and paint) or feeder lines (fender line, front end sheetmetal and motor line) are more common because you can go down, sometimes for long periods, without shutting the final line down.

But plant management is very touchy about shutting the main line (chassis and final) down for even short periods.

K