Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options

[Nufsed]

Hey folks, I usually hang out over in 60-66 but I'm up against some confusing info on a '71 I'm looking into.
first: the truck is on the East Coast and I'm in TX.
The current is the second owner and he bought from the estate, so no contact or conversation with the (deceased) original owner.
I've received a *bunch* of pictures. I've looked at all the details to the extent that I am able.

This '71 is a low-mile "survivor" with a repaint but not a restoration.... and no Krylon, anywhere.
The truck a *nice* 71 C10 2wd 350 TH swb
The truck has Factory AC.
The weird bit: The truck has all its docs, SPID, even the window sticker.
Everything is awesome except that the AC is not listed.
I'm not new at this; I've checked all the indicators for correctness that I can see. The VIN tag has the right rivets. The S.P.I.D. list matches everything on the truck saved for the air.
The AC is clearly all of the correct factory pieces, and would appear factory installed.
Now, back in the day, the dealers could buy "up-option kits" to install items that were not ordered on a particular car, for example cruise control. The Up-option kit had ALL the required pieces to install the cruise exactly like the cruise in the factory installed units, right down to the rubber grommets. Once installed at the dealer, you could never tell that the cruise was not factory.
I'm aware that dealer installs of "hangdown" AC was prevalent at the time (I recall $400 for it) but my question is this: Does anyone know if the factory ever offered an Up-Option Kit to install the **factory** Air? It would've been crazy expensive and very involved to install, but I'm left wondering if it was ever offered...and maybe done to this truck??
I'm certain the firewall is different, so it would be really odd.
Anyone have any ideas to explain this install, assuming the cab and VIN and docs are legit?
(trying to post pics...standby)

[57taskforce]

I can't say for sure but I doubt it because the cabs are different from non a/c to a/c both the dash and firewall. Somebody probably added it later in its life by modifying the passenger firewall. I've never heard of a dealer doin this but that don't mean much I suppose.

[Stocker]

This is probably a dumb question, but by any chance could the SPID be an incorrect replacement and not the original? This would assume the A/C is factory installed.

[davepl]

I have the dealer addon catalog for '70 and the dealer-optioned AC is an under-dash unit. Your truck is presumably an AC cab, right? That's a very involved conversion if the truck wasn't built that way originally.

It's always conceivable the PO got a donor truck and really wanted AC. If it's done well enough that you can't tell, unless it's a super-rare truck that you need to fully document for some reason, I wouldn't take it as a negative.

[davepl]

Here's the page:

[jocko]

pretty sure this would be a previous owner add on - a cab swap - or a SPID/gb door swap. Not something a dealer would do. As pointed out above, any dealer add-on a/c was normally under-dash.

[Lanman1972]

My 1972 has dealer installed A/C with documentation. My unit is very different from factory but is not an under dash unit. Has side vents and center vent, but the dash is different and so is under the hood. The controls for the unit are on the center vent unit. Not sure if this helps. I am not sure your situation would stop me from buying if all the numbers would allow it to be plated without DMV problems.

[100%Chevy]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Hey folks, I usually hang out over in 60-66 but I'm up against some confusing info on a '71 I'm looking into.
first: the truck is on the East Coast and I'm in TX.
The current is the second owner and he bought from the estate, so no contact or conversation with the (deceased) original owner.
I've received a *bunch* of pictures. I've looked at all the details to the extent that I am able.

This '71 is a low-mile "survivor" with a repaint but not a restoration.... and no Krylon, anywhere.
The truck a *nice* 71 C10 2wd 350 TH swb
The truck has Factory AC.
The weird bit: The truck has all its docs, SPID, even the window sticker.
Everything is awesome except that the AC is not listed.
I'm not new at this; I've checked all the indicators for correctness that I can see. The VIN tag has the right rivets. The S.P.I.D. list matches everything on the truck saved for the air.
The AC is clearly all of the correct factory pieces, and would appear factory installed.
Now, back in the day, the dealers could buy "up-option kits" to install items that were not ordered on a particular car, for example cruise control. The Up-option kit had ALL the required pieces to install the cruise exactly like the cruise in the factory installed units, right down to the rubber grommets. Once installed at the dealer, you could never tell that the cruise was not factory.
I'm aware that dealer installs of "hangdown" AC was prevalent at the time (I recall $400 for it) but my question is this: Does anyone know if the factory ever offered an Up-Option Kit to install the **factory** Air? It would've been crazy expensive and very involved to install, but I'm left wondering if it was ever offered...and maybe done to this truck??
I'm certain the firewall is different, so it would be really odd.
Anyone have any ideas to explain this install, assuming the cab and VIN and docs are legit?
(trying to post pics...standby)

The control cable on yours(in your picture) is in the wrong place and should be big enough (1/2") for the rubber grommet.
I've just finished adding factory air to my 68. It is a long, time consuming job.Especially the firewall work.
mike.

[mike16]

it looks factory to me. there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.

Both of my trucks were purchased from the family of the origonal owners. no mods to increase values. but some options clearly origonal to the truck were not listed on the SPID for either truck. The reason I feal,certain that this is a mistake.... none of those ommitted options do anything to increase the value of the truck. Both trucks. And niether previos owner was aware of the spid plate in the glove box. none braged about the errors or hyped them up to increase sales appeal of the truck....both trucks.

regardless what the option is, it does not increase or decrease the likely hood that its ommission from the spid plate was other than a simple error.

in other words, AC is a big option and unlikely to be over looked when actually looking at the truck. But remember that its not the huge AC unit on the truck that was overlooked or ommitted in error. It was a single option listed on a spid plate, printed up in some room off the main assembly line that was ommitted.

Huge numbers of these trucks were comming off the assembly line each day, I read somewhere that GM hired an additional 6000 employees to work nights and week ends to fill orders. Vehicles comming off the line at that rate? do you, me or anybody else believe they had time to screw up a spid plate and reprint another corrected one.

I dont know. It would be very easy to tell if the cab is different from the origonal one ore it sombody added factory AC to thier cabe later.

look very closely at details and either possibility becomes clear. but dont discount a simple error of omission on the spid plate. Its happened enough that it does not defy belief.

[truckster]

I'm kind of thinking along the lines of Mike16. I had a customer's brand-new 75 Camaro come in with a complaint of a clunk in the driver's door. I pulled the panel and out came an empty whiskey bottle. These were mass-produced, and done in an age before computers and bar codes. Could a clerk have missed a line on a SPID? It's not too unlikely.

[special-K]

I have "heard" of people insisting the dealer add "factory air" to a truck before. I have always been skeptical of that, but it certainly is possible to do...for the right amount of money

[Nufsed]

Wow! thanks for the replies, folks. I agree that an omission from the SPID is most likely what's going on here.
The other bit is the "window sticker" where the actual money is tallied also omits it. That is especially weird.
Of course, there was never an actual window sticker on these trucks in the showrooms, but it's the equivalent doc.
Maybe the guy just got a steal on the truck due to a clerical error?
Evidence that backs up the AC being factory is the inclusion of other items that were likely prerequisites for AC trucks:V8 engine, tinted glass and "special insulation" included in the "Z62 cust comf & conv eq" package.

Speaking with the current (second) owner (who has owned it for a number of years) I don't get any indication of misrepresentation. He simply doesn't get why it's not on the papers, either.

I've been looking at these trucks intently for a couple of years, now, looking for the "right one" and Oh, Lordy, I have been finding a LOT of 'kit' trucks.
Cut frames, engine swaps, driveline mismatches, etc. And, of course, LMC has sold more Cheyenne packages than Chevrolet, it seems.
This place is a great resource.
Some great info and help on this sight!

On the subject of these trucks generally, another detail question: I know about the mirror boss that indicates a pre-72 cab.... are there any other details that will call out cab year differences within the 67-71s?
Are there differences in the cab that will indicate that it was originally built as a stepside or cab/chassis?
(On the 60-66 trucks there is a filler panel used on the cab that is for SS only)

As as token of appreciation, let me offer my Brake info as a resource, perhaps, that you guys may find helpful in your projects
http://www.pbase.com/nufsed/drumbrake

[leddzepp]

Posting more than one pic would be helpful in making a determination.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mike16

there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.

I'm skeptical...

Originally Posted by mike16

in other words, AC is a big option and unlikely to be over looked when actually looking at the truck. But remember that its not the huge AC unit on the truck that was overlooked or ommitted in error. It was a single option listed on a spid plate, printed up in some room off the main assembly line that was ommitted.

...and here's why.

You seem to be under the misconception that there was a person sitting in a room somewhere typing up SPID labels as the truck went by, trying to match the label to the content.

That is not correct; the option database was created and loaded at the beginning of the model year. The option content for the specific truck was downloaded to the final assembly location system after the dealer order was approved. The information was "broadcast", or disseminated, and printed through the whole plant at the same time to each area of interest, specifically the chassis, motor line, body, and paint build sheets, including printing the window sticker (Mulroney label). SPID labels were broadcast at the same time and printed well in advance of the vehicle arriving in station.

Although "Air Conditioning" looks like one line on the SPID it is actually a complex option affecting several areas of build - body, trim, engine and final line. As such - if it's not on the build sheet - it's not going on the truck. If it's not on the build sheet - it's not on the SPID.

I know that mistakes get made (in Flint the guy that installed the SPID labels worked for me) but I can see that on a simple, stand alone option (like a trailer hitch); not on something as integrated across the vehicle as A/C.

A disconnect there would bring the process to a screeching halt.

Originally Posted by mike16

Huge numbers of these trucks were comming off the assembly line each day, I read somewhere that GM hired an additional 6000 employees to work nights and week ends to fill orders. Vehicles comming off the line at that rate? do you, me or anybody else believe they had time to screw up a spid plate and reprint another corrected one.

60 an hour, to be precise, in most of the plants I worked in. Or one completed truck per minute, leaving the operator about 45 seconds to grab the part(s), make the installation and reload for the next truck.

That's why no "thinking" was required as the line was running. Everything was laid out months and years in advance, such that all the assembler had to do was read the build sheet and install the indicated part.

That includes the pre-printed SPID label.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Wow! thanks for the replies, folks. I agree that an omission from the SPID is most likely what's going on here.

I don't.

See above.

Incidently, there are Federal regulations governing the inclusion of options.

If a person gets an option they didn't pay for (...like a trailer hitch...) - that's ok.

If a person pays for an option but doesn't get it - that is a violation of Federal Trade Commission rules and GM could be subject to recalls, fines and sanctions.

If we accidentally built a truck without A/C that was supposed to have it - we wouldn't attempt a repair. We would simply build another truck (with a new VIN) with the right option content. The incorrect truck would go to dealer stock or to dealer auction.

K

[Nufsed]

Adding a couple of pics
which may help... or not
and my apologies as I thought these had posted in the first post but something went sideways and they didn't post.
Trying again:

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Adding a couple of pics
which may help... or not
and my apologies as I thought these had posted in the first post but something went sideways and they didn't post.
Trying again:

Notice the SPID matches the window sticker? That tells me all the build documents (body, chassis, trim and final line build sheets, Mulroney label and SPID) would all be lined up as saying "no A/C", since they all come from the same central database.

Somebody went to a lot of trouble to add air to that truck after it left the vehicle assembly plant.

K

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I don't.
See above.
My vote is a cab change somewhere along the line.
K

Was AC ever included in a "package" and not spelled out on the sheet?


Since you were there, I've often wondered, if something went wrong, and a part broke or the engine wouldn't start right up, what did they do? What if someone fell or just didn't install their part on one, did the next guy *shut the line down*? or did these trucks get sidelined and repaired/finished somehow?
I've always wondered how lines like that work.

[davepl]

Any luck getting ahold of relatives (nicely)?

For my truck the original owner passed a year before I got it at the age of 96, I think, and his wife predeceased him by a couple of years. I thought that was the end of the line, but I found a granddaughter on Facebook (same odd last name and small town) that was really excited about the truck and was willing to share a bunch of memories about it.

Having AC added, if that's the case, might have been a big enough event that someone remembers it or a story about it. Just saying, worth a shot perhaps. Particularly if you can tell them you're restoring it, not getting ready to chop and C-brace it!

[cypressbog]

I notice the paper work VIN # doesn't match the vin plate #, or is that a build number?

Different carbs were used on A/C equiped trucks for sure, not sure what other differences.

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Wow! thanks for the replies, folks. I agree that an omission from the SPID is most likely what's going on here.

Right, SPID line item omission clearly doesn't explain this situation. The truck IMHO did not roll off the line with the factory RPO C60 air conditioning installed as presented. Clearly if you want to know more it is going to require far more than a picture.

Originally Posted by Nufsed

The other bit is the "window sticker" where the actual money is tallied also omits it. That is especially weird.
Of course, there was never an actual window sticker on these trucks in the showrooms, but it's the equivalent doc.

So we are talking a "scheduled price sheet" that has a specific order and dealer number but not a VIN number printed on it, correct?

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Evidence that backs up the AC being factory is the inclusion of other items that were likely prerequisites for AC trucks:V8 engine, tinted glass and "special insulation" included in the "Z62 cust comf & conv eq" package.

Clearly you are lost here.
Yes 71-72 trucks required a V8 for the production C60, but earlier trucks did not.
Tinted glass was a stand alone option and I know of several SPIDs reflecting that.
The "special insulation" was part of the upgrades included as part of the Z62 Custom Deluxe trim option package. It has nothing to do with the RPO C60.

Originally Posted by Nufsed

I've been looking at these trucks intently for a couple of years, now, looking for the "right one" and Oh, Lordy, I have been finding a LOT of 'kit' trucks.
Cut frames, engine swaps, driveline mismatches, etc.

There are a number of, IMHO, rebuilds from the 80s and 90s coming out and being presented as "original". Curiously many are "estate" finds. Since your seller has had the truck for a while it does not seem to be an intentional cutout as other have appeared to me.

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Are there differences in the cab that will indicate that it was originally built as a stepside or cab/chassis?

While there are cab sheetmetal differences over the 67-72 run there were not specific model cabs, only modifications as far as needed for RPO content like A/C, buckets, high hump or the marker lamp roof panel.

Keith clearly knows a great deal about GM production and I do not dismiss any of his observations. While his direct experience is a little later he has a very good feel for production in this time period.

Finally there were dealer kits to add production options to GM cars and trucks. The most common we encounter is the U63 radio kit.

In my research over the years I have touched on some of the other kits but really rarely mention them simply because it creates the desire to seek out the kits or worse add them to a truck and pass it off as a period installation.

There is the possibility that GM offered a RPO C60 Four Seasons dealer kit. I have seen them listed by number (for an earlier MY) along side the C69 roof kits for Subs and G vans as well as the clearly indicated Under Dash A/C kits for pickups/conventional cabs.

The suggested labor time seems low for the difference but then I have not added either to a "new" period Chevy truck. Notably the C60 kit suggested 10.0 hrs where the Under Dash was 9.0 hrs to retrofit.

So Tim (SpecialK) may very well have encountered dealer installed "factory" kits installed on dealer stock vehicles at a customer's request. Back in the North East it was not a common option and actually expensive being about a 16% bump over the base price. However it would take a dealer sales invoice for me to even start to believe it was truely "as delivered" equipment.

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by cypressbog

I notice the paper work VIN # doesn't match the vin plate #, or is that a build number?

Different carbs were used on A/C equiped trucks for sure, not sure what other differences.

The VIN matches everywhere. the number on the sheet above is the "model" number and it fits as well

C=Chevy 2wd
1=V8
07= 115" wb
34=fleetside 6.5'

The VIN is
C=Chevy 2wd
E=V8
1=1/2Ton
4=pickup (cab & bed)
1= 1971
A= plant

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Was AC ever included in a "package" and not spelled out on the sheet?

No.

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Since you were there, I've often wondered, if something went wrong, and a part broke or the engine wouldn't start right up, what did they do? What if someone fell or just didn't install their part on one, did the next guy *shut the line down*? or did these trucks get sidelined and repaired/finished somehow?
I've always wondered how lines like that work.

Nope. The line just kept going.

If a truck wouldn't start - they had these little gas powered "mule" tugs that had push bumpers on them. They would push the disabled vehicle over into the "deadhead" repair hole without shutting the line down.

Pretty much anything would get pushed to the back. If parts didn't fit or were wrong they'd throw them in the pickup box. If the cab didn't set down or it had a wrong box they'd just leave it and it would ride all the way down the line.

We had a library of tire/wheel assemblies such that if a truck was built with a wrong axle then the corresponding wrong tire/wheel assembly would be installed. The truck would be repaired out back in a "heavy repair" stall.

The only way it would shut down (during regular production) was if further damage would ensue, like if a tool got stuck on a vehicle and the air hose was getting stretched to the point of being pulled off.

There are extra "relief" personnel around to fill in if someone gets sick or gets called out on an emergency. If you are really desparate then the "quality man" (an hourly right hand man) or even the salaried foreman himself gets on the job to keep going, but you would not shut the main line down.

Shut downs during the beginning of of the model year (new product launch) are fairly common at first, and are budgeted for. Shutdowns in the rear areas of the plant (body and paint) or feeder lines (fender line, front end sheetmetal and motor line) are more common because you can go down, sometimes for long periods, without shutting the final line down.

But plant management is very touchy about shutting the main line (chassis and final) down for even short periods.

K

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by mike16

... there is enough evidence out there to approch SPIDs with some caution. Most of the time they are crrect but often enough there are ty[ically errors of ommission as well.

Both of my trucks were purchased from the family of the origonal owners. no mods to increase values. but some options clearly origonal to the truck were not listed on the SPID for either truck...

Care to provide specifcs including pictures, years, assembly plants, and VIN range within a thousand units for each?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

I've always wondered how lines like that work.

You might enjoy these:

Recent discussion: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=682275

Factory VIN mistake: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...73#post7516973

My intro thread: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=342926

Old Wive's tales from other GM workers: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=556607

Growing up in a GM family: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=560524