Experts Question re: Dealer Added Factory Options

[cypressbog]

Originally Posted by SS Tim

While there are cab sheetmetal differences over the 67-72 run there were not specific model cabs, only modifications as far as needed for RPO content like A/C, buckets, high hump or the marker lamp roof panel.

Actually there are year specific differences. His truck being a 1971 would need to have the one year only raised pad above the center of the windshield to mount the rear view mirror. If his doesn't have it, then we know for a fact the cab was swapped.

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by SS Tim

Right, SPID line item omission clearly doesn't explain this situation. The truck IMHO did not roll off the line with the factory RPO C60 air conditioning installed as presented.

So we are talking a "scheduled price sheet" that has a specific order and dealer number but not a VIN number printed on it, correct?

Yes, better picture attached.



Clearly you are lost here.
Yes 71-72 trucks required a V8 for the production C60, but earlier trucks did not.
Tinted glass was a stand alone option and I know of several SPIDs reflecting that.
The "special insulation" was part of the upgrades included as part of the Z62 Custom Deluxe trim option package. It has nothing to do with the RPO C60.

I would take issue with the characterization "lost", no, I think I've found the right place, actually.
Note that I didn't state that those items were requisite, only that they were *LIKELY* requisite when ordering AC. If not required, likely highly recommended. I'm aware that tinted glass was available stand alone. The 'insulation' in the comfort package was likely sound pad rather than thermal barrier. I know the V8 was required at least 71-72. Were there earlier six cylinder AC trucks? My '66 fact AC is an 8, but I don't know if mandated or simply a good idea.

anecdotal: My FiL bought a new '79 6cyl 3sp C10. He had dealer air added..... man, that thing was a pig. It really WAS a bad idea.



Finally there were dealer kits to add production options to GM cars and trucks. The most common we encounter is the U63 radio kit.

There is the possibility that GM offered a RPO C60 Four Seasons dealer kit. I have seen them listed by number

The suggested labor time seems low for the difference but then I have not added either to a "new" period Chevy truck. Notably the C60 kit suggested 10.0 hrs where the Under Dash was 9.0 hrs to retrofit.

I agree that I would have expected the flat rate would allow at least 2 or 3 hours more and I'd love to see the template used for the firewall alteration.

However it would take a dealer sales invoice for me to even start to believe it was truly "as delivered" equipment.

The order sheet is shown below. If I can find further docs i will post them if they relate.

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by cypressbog

Actually there are year specific differences. His truck being a 1971 would need to have the one year only raised pad above the center of the windshield to mount the rear view mirror. If his doesn't have it, then we know for a fact the cab was swapped.

Wait, I thought the mirror boss was 67-71.
Is it '71 ONLY? no boss prior?

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by cypressbog

Actually there are year specific differences. His truck being a 1971 would need to have the one year only raised pad above the center of the windshield to mount the rear view mirror. If his doesn't have it, then we know for a fact the cab was swapped.

True and that was what I meant by sheetmetal changes. There were both plant and year variations.

However the prime point is correct in response to his question the cabs were the same reguardless the model. A C20 chassis cab, C10 stepside or a C30 would have the same cab if the options aligned like all having four speeds and marker lamps.

[cypressbog]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

Wait, I thought the mirror boss was 67-71.
Is it '71 ONLY? no boss prior?

Yes; 1971 only. 67-70 mounted above the windshield without the raised metal. 71 had the raised metal and 1972 didn't have the raised metal because the mirror mounted to the windshield glass.

Originally Posted by SS Tim

True and that was what I meant by sheetmetal changes. There were both plant and year variations.

However the prime point is correct in response to his question the cabs were the same reguardless the model. A C20 chassis cab, C10 stepside or a C30 would have the same cab if the options aligned like all having four speeds and marker lamps.

I see your point, thank you I misunderstood.

[mike16]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I'm skeptical...



...and here's why.

You seem to be under the misconception that there was a person sitting in a room somewhere typing up SPID labels as the truck went by, trying to match the label to the content.

That is not correct; the option database was created and loaded at the beginning of the model year. The option content for the specific truck was downloaded to the final assembly location system after the dealer order was approved. The information was "broadcast", or disseminated, and printed through the whole plant at the same time to each area of interest, specifically the chassis, motor line, body, and paint build sheets, including printing the window sticker (Mulroney label). SPID labels were broadcast at the same time and printed well in advance of the vehicle arriving in station.

Although "Air Conditioning" looks like one line on the SPID it is actually a complex option affecting several areas of build - body, trim, engine and final line. As such - if it's not on the build sheet - it's not going on the truck. If it's not on the build sheet - it's not on the SPID.

I know that mistakes get made (in Flint the guy that installed the SPID labels worked for me) but I can see that on a simple, stand alone option (like a trailer hitch); not on something as integrated across the vehicle as A/C.

A disconnect there would bring the process to a screeching halt.



60 an hour, to be precise, in most of the plants I worked in. Or one completed truck per minute, leaving the operator about 45 seconds to grab the part(s), make the installation and reload for the next truck.

That's why no "thinking" was required as the line was running. Everything was laid out months and years in advance, such that all the assembler had to do was read the build sheet and install the indicated part.

That includes the pre-printed SPID label.

K

You dont convince me at all. I'm under No miconception. What ever additional details you may wish to contribute does not mean I am wrong simply because You contributed them and I did not. Perhaps your too busy trying to prove I am wrong when you ought to be explaining how you are so absolutely 100% certain that in this particular case the spid is accurate and the truck is wrong. And while your at it, explain how in every other case that the spid is wrong, the spid is actually right and the truck is wrong.

Nice try. but dazzling us with obscure details that you alone are privy to does not make any of us wrong because your facts cannot be confirmed. Because I dont know which room the spids were printed off in does not mean Im wrong when I state they were printed in some room somewhere.I had relatives working at the GM plant in Wilmington Delaware. When friends and family ordered up a vehicle (impala) it got loaded with many additional options not on any order sheet. So there are several possible reasons that options may appear on a vehicle and not on the spid . You with your vast knowlege of every minute detail You cannot account for every possibility and variation. People print spid's and people make mistakes. And you wernt there standing over somebody's sholder watching. I at least gave creadence to the possibility that it could be faked and its easily detected. You seem to insist that I am wrong rather than giving creadence to either possibility. You could not possibly be everywhere at once all the time through out your million year long carreer at GM. Ever one makes mistakes. The guy off in some room that only you know of, printing off spids, he could have made mistakes. I certainly can and have made mistakes, And you certainly have made mistakes. Why not limit your contributions the factual ones, to the subject rather than trying to fault others.

just exactly what evidence do you have that his spid is right and the truck is wrong. I'm looking at the same pictures you are and at least give consideration to either possibility.And do me a favor. next time you see the guy.... whos sholder you wer standing over....in 68 and 72 when my trucks came off the line, tell him to come over and remove those accessories that are on my truck and not on my spid plate.

Sorry but I'm not buying the fact that you were everywhere at once all the time watching everything everybody did. I'm noy convinced. Even if the ac on this truck is faked, you have not convinced me at all that spids are always right. Show your proof.

[bruceman1968]

Nufsed, Where was this pic taken? It doesn't appear to be attached to the glove box door.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mike16

...you ought to be explaining how you are so absolutely 100% certain that in this particular case the spid is accurate and the truck is wrong.

Already did, I thought: the window sticker and the SPID match. That seems pretty conclusive to me.

Originally Posted by mike16

The guy off in some room that only you know of, printing off spids, he could have made mistakes...

We've already established that people don't print SPIDs, computers do. And they are printed line-side, not in a separate room.

Originally Posted by mike16

When friends and family ordered up a vehicle (impala) it got loaded with many additional options not on any order sheet.

Stand alone options, like a trailer hitch, or a different seat. Not highly integrated complex options like air conditioning.

Originally Posted by mike16

Show your proof

Is it easier (and a better use of our time) for me to show you 40 million SPIDs that are correct, or for you to produce two that are incorrect?

Originally Posted by mike16

You dont convince me at all. I'm under No miconception. etc etc

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was claiming to be everywhere at once. That was certainly not my intent. One doesn't need to be everywhere at once to understand how the process works, and its limitations.

It only feels like it has been a million years. I will say that I have either been employed by or launched product in about a dozen GM assembly plants over the last 38 years (Flint, Pontiac, Ft Wayne, Oshawa, Janesville, St Louis, Arlington, Silao, Wentzville, Detroit-Hamtramck, Mishawaka plus a couple prototype build shops and one skunk works, to be precise). That's separate from leading about a half dozen vehicle programs from clay concepts to full volume production. Plus time at both the Milford and the Desert Proving Ground. I'd love to visit with your relatives from Wilmington and swap stories if ever given the chance.

As I already mentioned the guy who installed the SPID labels in Flint worked for me when I was a supervisor on the line; I will let the other readers come to their own conclusions.

If you ever make it to the Motor City I'd be happy to show you around.

K

[Stocker]

Well played, Keith.

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by bruceman1968

Nufsed, Where was this pic taken? It doesn't appear to be attached to the glove box door.
Attachment 1527196

Good eye; it is not on the glove box door. The seller explained that a corner was lifting and he thought it would be better preserved if he removed it and stored it with the truck's original papers. Now, some folks will read this and just scream "oh, likely story" "its a fake" "the guy's a fraud" but, though I'm as jaded as they come, I can't give that much weight to the SPID's location alone. The fact is, if he had *tossed* the thing in the trash, I wouldn't be buggin' you guys about it...I probably would've bought the truck(!) by now. He does have the original title, actual invoice, (signed paid in full) owners manual, protecto-plate on its card and the SPID folded up inside.
Obviously, we all see the SPID removal as heretical and damning. I don't know that it makes *everything wrong* about the truck. The VIN plate is pretty convincing but I haven't traveled across country to verify the stamped VIN on the frame or other locations that you guys can tell me the location of.
Frame rail right by the power steering pump, right? where else? Is the VIN stamped directly into the cab metal somewhere?

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by 100%Chevy

The control cable on yours(in your picture) is in the wrong place and should be big enough (1/2") for the rubber grommet.
I've just finished adding factory air to my 68. It is a long, time consuming job.Especially the firewall work.
mike.

Yep, dead giveaway. Somebody went to a lot of trouble adding factory AC to that truck. Here is the control cable hole without the grommet.

[bruceman1968]

"The seller" Sorry I missed that. This is a truck your looking at, to buy. My bad. Can you ask the seller for a better SPID pic. One that includes the top and bottom and hopefully shows the clear film cover. I would also like to see the way the vin is printed. Just trying to cover all the bases.
VIN locations are where you stated.. Top of frame rail by PS pump and top of same rail between the cab mounts.. VINs are not stamped into the sheet metal of the cab, on our trucks.

[Nufsed]

Oh, BTW: the original invoice from the dealer (the actual reciept/invoice) from Lawson Chevrolet in GA with the VIN# on the invoice shows the total price as $3825 and does not list any add-ons or dealer installed items though the invoice has areas for those items to be listed.

$3784.50 + $40.50 tax.

Nothing like the stack of papers we typically leave the dealer with these days.

[Nufsed]

A better pic, no crop
On the cable hole, you're probably right. I have got to get a better pic of that area.

[donandal]

this has been fun reading...

now I am ready to reach a verdict.

Nice installation,

NOT factory !!!

case dismissed

[Mike's money pit]

I know it's kind of off track, but on the build sheet, under the Z 62 option, it lists a white hardboard headliner. What was this referring to? I believe only Cheyennes and Cheyenne supers came with the actual headliner in the roof of the cab.

[Nufsed]

Adding: Here's a pic I had of a green '71 and this one together

It looks like the location of that hole is the biggest red flag.

The green truck has a later vac can and later compressor brackets, but details...

[bruceman1968]

Thank you for the pic. That SPID is legit. That truck was built without AC. The AC was added after the truck left the line.

[Nufsed]

While I have all the experts' ears, here, someoine tell me the scoop on the coil vs leaf spring options.
Were the coils the lightest weight rated suspension and every thing else had leaf springs?
are the coils available in "heavy duty" versions?
I've seen (as in the pic above) coils with helper leaves.
Were "heavy Duty shocks" available on coils trucks?
Any options that *required* leaf rear on a 1/2 ton (camper,Longhorn,etc)
Were there EVER any K models with rear coils? (not counting Earlier Napco trucks)

[Flying Hamster]

Considering the SPID not being attached, could the original owner have gotten a repro SPID for the truck? Maybe it wasn't correct and left off A/C, but the original owner put it on anyway. It started to peel and the 2nd owner took it off...
Now here we are trying to figure out what's going on.

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by Mike's money pit

I know it's kind of off track, but on the build sheet, under the Z 62 option, it lists a white hardboard headliner. What was this referring to? I believe only Cheyennes and Cheyenne supers came with the actual headliner in the roof of the cab.

From the looks of it the price schedule has a Z62 line item description that includes the headliner found on a Suburban so optioned. Probably a one size fits all description since pickups don't have spare tire covers either nor the vinyl side wall panels.

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by Nufsed

While I have all the experts' ears, here, someoine tell me the scoop on the coil vs leaf spring options.
Were the coils the lightest weight rated suspension and every thing else had leaf springs?
are the coils available in "heavy duty" versions?
I've seen (as in the pic above) coils with helper leaves.
Were "heavy Duty shocks" available on coils trucks?
Any options that *required* leaf rear on a 1/2 ton (camper,Longhorn,etc)
Were there EVER any K models with rear coils? (not counting Earlier Napco trucks)

Going to suggest you do some more research before actually buying a truck long distance.
The best place to start is here if you don't have the material from another source.
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-...tion-kits.html

To basically answer your question, coil springs were standard on C10 and most C20 trucks. C20 rated Longhorns (built on a one ton frame) and C30s were only offered on rear leafs. All 67-72 K series were leaf front and rear.
On pickups, leaf springs were optional in various ratings as were HD coils and even quarter eliptic helper springs were offered on coil trucks.
HD shocks were offered as well. In the case of a C30 rear shocks were an option.

[Nufsed]

Originally Posted by SS Tim

From the looks of it the price schedule has a Z62 line item description that includes the headliner found on a Suburban so optioned. Probably a one size fits all description since pickups don't have spare tire covers either nor the vinyl side wall panels.

I've wondered about that list as well.
They don't typically refer to the "Front" door and the "Front seat" unless in other configurations.

[100%Chevy]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

Yep, dead giveaway. Somebody went to a lot of trouble adding factory AC to that truck. Here is the control cable hole without the grommet.

The hole used on the O.P.'s truck is used on the heat only trucks.

BYW,mines a 68,anniversary too!

[flashed]

That truck was sold new in my old home town and the Lawson dealership just recently sold out to Day's Chevrolet ,just useless info on my part.