I'm pulling my hair out......

[Tquillen]

The steering on my '69 C10 will not return to center, and its kicking my butt. First off, the details and specifics:

Rebuilt suspension: upper control arm shafts and bushings, new upper and lower ball joints for 73-87, CPP modular drop spindles for 73-87, stock springs, new tie rod inner/outer ('69 and 73-87 combo) with CPP conversion adjuster. New pitman arm and idler arm. I reused the '69 centerlink. All replacement components are Moog. I converted the steering to power, using a steering gearbox from a '86 C10 and power steering pump from a '90 Camaro (factory serpentine conversion). Wheels are 15x6 with a 225/75/15 tire. 5x5 pattern.


Alignment is currently at 0.5 degrees positive camber, 3.6 degrees caster, and 1/8" total toe in. I've done alignments on drag cars for twenty years and never had an issue, but I'm going to put the truck on an alignment machine this week to double check my numbers. The shim stack on the upper a-arm has four 1/8" shims on the front, with none on the back stud (I was trying to maximize caster to see if it made a difference).

Steering column is free with no binding. I've also taken the bolts out of the idler arm frame bracket while the truck is on the ground to be sure that the center link wasn't putting the idler arm or pitman arm in a bind; I can slide the bolts in and out easily. With the outer tie rods disconnected from the spindle, and jackstands placed under the lower control arm, the spindles turn freely on the ball joints with single finger effort. I've also removed the power steering box from the truck and run through the shop manual adjustment procedure that I found on this forum. The sector shaft adjustment was a little tight, so I corrected that but no difference. I also backed out the sector shaft adjustment screw an additional turn (going a quarter turn at a time), test driving the truck between each adjustment, ith no difference. I also removed the CPP front sway bar, just for grins...no luck there (I didn't expect there to be any).

The truck steering is very nice in terms of effort, with no noises or hard spots. The truck feels tight on the road, and doesn't wander. it just doesn't return to center, and requires constant correction to keep in in my lane. Once I get it pointed straight, it goes straight. No pulls, no vibrations.


Fellas, I'm lost. I've scoured this forum for information, and tried everything I know to do, with no changes. I'm open to any and all ideas. Is 3.5 degrees not enough for these trucks?

[LEEVON]

Wow, that sucks. All I can suggest is more caster if it will take it, dial it up and see how it drives.

[AussieinNC]

Try these settings...

1963-78

Camber: -0*15' to -0*45' yes Negative !
Caster: +2*00' to +3*00' no more
Toe: -0*08" to -0*15"

Worked fine for me and I have very similar setup.

[Tquillen]

I can't dial any more positive caster into the suspension as it is without getting additional positive camber. I can take shims out of the front a arm stud and go with less caster and negative camber. I'll try that. I've also been thinking about doing the lower a arm caster mod to gain caster and let me get the camber back negative. I don't want to get into a situation where I've got a bunch of bumpsteer; I'm going to be doing some light towing with this thing, and control in panic situations is important to me.
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[Boog]

How about snapping a pic of the steering linkage for us? The tie rod to center link nuts should face forward.

[Tquillen]

I sure will. The nuts do face forward. I consulted the LMC catalog to be sure I had the center link on correctly; I got that little gem from one of the posts on another thread! I'll get some pictures and post shortly, I should've done that to begin with.

The alignment shop is going to work me in tomorrow, hopefully they will see something I'm missing.
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[demian5]

Do you have the upper control arms on backwards?

You say 3.5 caster, but in both places you never say if it is positive or negative. 3.5+ caster is great. The more you can get, the better the truck goes straight (and would return to center).

With it all together and on jack stands from the control arms, does it bind?

[Tquillen]

3.5 degrees positive caster, yes. I can turn the wheels by hand with the truck supported with jackstands under the control arms, but it does take some effort.
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[Tquillen]

Here are pictures, if anyone wants to see something else, let me know!
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[demian5]

There are a million of the same it seems.

https://www.google.com/search?domain...D%3A1%3B&hl=en

[68 P.O.S.]

You'll find some good numbers in this thread, if you haven't already seen it. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=582187

[Tquillen]

Originally Posted by demian5

There are a million of the same it seems.

https://www.google.com/search?domain...D%3A1%3B&hl=en

I have scoured google, this site, and a dozen others. Everything I have read typically points to alignment or an improperly adjusted steering box. I've tried literally dozens of different alignment settings, two steering boxes adjusted a multitude of ways, and two different steering pumps with different orifice sizes and flow pistons, with no results. I've done this type of thing before on Novas, Chevelles, and 442s with no issues.

[Tquillen]

More information from the alignment shop:

Alignment is within a couple tenths of a degree of what I measured. Camber is ever so slightly positive (L 0.1 degree/R 0.3 degree), caster is good (L 4.3 degree/R 4.6 degree), toe is 1/8" total. He got the steering wheel straight for me.

He also looked over everything on the front end rebuild, and said it all looked good.

In his opinion, it's not in the wear parts or the alignment. Even though I went through the adjustment of the steering box, and set the shaft thrust bearing rotating torque and the sector shaft preload/rotating torque by the motor manual instructions, I'm wondering if there could still be something amiss there. Interesting note: the flow piston has hung in the wide open (full relief) position twice now. Once last night, and once today on the way to the alignment shop. I wonder if its related.....

[HO455]

It appears to me that you have not done anything with the lower control arm bushings. Have you checked the for slop? If so how? The drivers side arm on my Burban had more than a 1/4" of fore to aft slop, but it took a BFH to find it. Every time I backed up and stopped I would reset the camber to new setting until the next hard stop going forward and the resetting would begin again.

[stsalvage]

I like using MOOG parts they come with the factory replacement Nuts I know your not suppose to use the Nor lock nuts They are good for 1 time then there junk You take them to a alignment shop.He will be loosening then on and off an they never Hold.You need the off shape nuts that are not completely round.There thread lock cuts and for a front end that is one place you want them.So take them pile of crap nuts off your front end Of your truck.If you have a accident in the death of some one and they can prove negligence.Then you will never drive again in your life cus you will spend the better part of your life in prison.Take heed of this warring.The worst word to be presented in a trail is NEGLIGENCE.Most states throw the book at you there is NO PITY for you.Ya I might sound foolish But just try to be in a court room when the state charges you with negligence.I rather them say Murder But never negligence.its means you don't Care.So you are warned

[toolboxchev]

Originally Posted by HO455

It appears to me that you have not done anything with the lower control arm bushings. Have you checked the for slop? If so how? The drivers side arm on my Burban had more than a 1/4" of fore to aft slop, but it took a BFH to find it. Every time I backed up and stopped I would reset the camber to new setting until the next hard stop going forward and the resetting would begin again.

I think he is onto something. I replaced the upper control arms shafts about 7 years ago. 2 years ago I replaced lower ball joints and lower control arm shafts, then took it in for alignment. They could not line it up due in part to the complete worn out bottom shafts did not help the new upper shaft last.

I will be doing uppers again in just 7 years, heck the originals went 40, to my knowledge??? WTF, right???

[Tquillen]

Originally Posted by stsalvage

I like using MOOG parts they come with the factory replacement Nuts I know your not suppose to use the Nor lock nuts They are good for 1 time then there junk You take them to a alignment shop.He will be loosening then on and off an they never Hold.You need the off shape nuts that are not completely round.There thread lock cuts and for a front end that is one place you want them.So take them pile of crap nuts off your front end Of your truck.If you have a accident in the death of some one and they can prove negligence.Then you will never drive again in your life cus you will spend the better part of your life in prison.Take heed of this warring.The worst word to be presented in a trail is NEGLIGENCE.Most states throw the book at you there is NO PITY for you.Ya I might sound foolish But just try to be in a court room when the state charges you with negligence.I rather them say Murder But never negligence.its means you don't Care.So you are warned

I'm assuming that you are referring to the nylocks on the idler arm bracket and also the upper control arm cross shafts.

You are 100% correct....I have all new "distorted thread" metal lock nuts to use when this thing goes back together for the last time. I used these nuts to keep from wearing out the threads on the upper control arm cross shaft mounting studs. I have had this entire front end completely disassembled dozens of times. DOZENS. I've ha the upper control arms off five times in the last two days alone. When I finally figure this thing out, I'll reassemble everything with the new nuts and new bolts in the steering gear mount and idler gear bracket. There's no telling how many cotter pins I've gone through; the garbage can is full of them!

I do the exact thing on the race cars that I build. I have a container full of used hardware that I mock everything up with, and then when I assemble the car for the last time, I use new hardware. Your concern and warning is appreciated.

[Tquillen]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

I think he is onto something. I replaced the upper control arms shafts about 7 years ago. 2 years ago I replaced lower ball joints and lower control arm shafts, then took it in for alignment. They could not line it up due in part to the complete worn out bottom shafts did not help the new upper shaft last.

I will be doing uppers again in just 7 years, heck the originals went 40, to my knowledge??? WTF, right???

The upper shaft bushings were worn, but only a little. I decided to go ahead and replace those. I checked the lower control arms by using a heavy dead blow hammer, hammering it forward and backward, with a magnetic dial indicator mounted on the frame rail and indicating off the back of the control arm. I didn't know how else to do it, I check crankshaft thrust clearance using this method. Is there a different/better way to check this? One that better simulates the load on the LCA? I'm listening!

[toolboxchev]

Shop I went to for line up informed me due to it being a metal on metal if it did not get greased regularly they will wear fast. He even stated that getting the grease in there using the zerk fitting will not lube it properly in its entirety.

I informed him when I did the install I applied copper ant-iseize and was praised for doing so, it definetely helped.

[Tquillen]

Originally Posted by toolboxchev

Shop I went to for line up informed me due to it being a metal on metal if it did not get greased regularly they will wear fast. He even stated that getting the grease in there using the zerk fitting will not lube it properly in its entirety.

I informed him when I did the install I applied copper ant-iseize and was praised for doing so, it definetely helped.

When I did the uppers, I used the silver anti-seize. How is it that I look like the tin man every time I get finished using that stuff?

I think I'm gonna take everything apart again next week, and check all that again. I looked in my notes, but could not find where I wrote the measurement down that I got. I'm pretty much at the end of my rope here, so I might as well go over that again. Thanks for the idea.
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[v30crewcab]

I've had 3 different things that don't allow return to center.
1 not enough caster
2 steering box too tight(or steering box not correctly centered),
3 too much ps pressure(too big of a hole in the piece that screws in the back of the pump).
hope you get it ironed out.