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Old 02-17-2004, 01:22 AM   #51
68 Suburban
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Quote:
Originally posted by COBALT
I'm just amazed that these two members decided to do business together.


and contains an obvious attempt at filling it with the same set of pictures over and over again (some broken links). I wouldn't have much confidence in Tony's ability to complete a job based on what I see on this site. I'm surprised that Kenneth agreed to this project in the first place.

Exactly. I remember seeing that red mini cooper when Tony first posted it on here, and then at least 50 other times he posted it too. It is also on the home page of his web site. In the 2-3 years Tony has been here, I have never seen pictures of anything else? Is this the first (only) vehicle Tony has completed?

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Old 02-17-2004, 02:32 AM   #52
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Tony, that was pathetic. Are you trying to buy a one way ticket to hell?

Not only did you screw Kenneth, he's going to have to pay big bucks just to do this thing up right.

I see a courtroom in your future (consumer beats small business about 80% of the time in small claims court BTW). Don't believe me? Go ask a lawyer.

Your best bet would be to give Kenneth back every cent you can't show a reciept for. If you can't find reciepts hopefully you could negotiate a "fair market value" for items installed. The labor is a loss (if you call that hackjob labor).

Best of luck to you Kenneth. Hopefully you can find a reasonable shop to fix this because most shops charge extra to fix other peoples screw ups.

Shame on you Tony.
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Old 02-17-2004, 05:07 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by COBALT
Everything about this situation sucks!

I think both of you had a hand to play, and I think I smell something rotten with this thread. Tony has made some board members mad before based on what he's said and done. He's also been banned before because of those things... That's why I find it so surprising that Kenneth chose to do business with him.

Does this surprise anyone else but me? I think Kenneth ultimately made a bad business decision.
I agree Cobalt...there is something going on here that we must not all know about. I am confused too why Old Rusty C10 has two user names.

Looking at the cab reminds me of my college work...how crappy a rush job can look. You ignore the details but it seems good at first. I would not be happy with the results.

I have only dealt with Tony once and I just bought a radio delete plate. He handled the deal well, but again it was only a small part. I will be watching this thread with interest.
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Old 02-17-2004, 02:47 PM   #54
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"I agree Cobalt...there is something going on here that we must not all know about. I am confused too why Old Rusty C10 has two user names. " originally posted by 1969 GMC

Just to clear up the thing about my two screen names, i originally found the board like a year or so ago and tried registering under ROLSON1039. I did not get a response back from the server/bot whatever, therefore i couldnt log on and when i tried resubmitting my application to join it said ROLSON1039 was already a member, so i joined up under Old Rusty C10 and promptly got my password and then used that screen name here. Soonafter i got the password for ROLSON1039 and i never bothered to use that one.Recently, like within the last two months ive developed problems with the server, which Josh has tried to correct, yet for some reason the problem is unable to be corrected. I can open only some forums with Old rusty c10, and im not banned from any forums as per conversations with Josh. I have just used the ROLSON1039 screen name where ive not been able to get in with OldRusty C10, which is basically the 73-87 and 67-72 message boards. Im sorry for any confusion this may have generated, and answers the question as to the two screen names connected with my account
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Old 02-17-2004, 04:06 PM   #55
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I had to laugh just reading Tony's webpage. I mean the poor guy can barely talk or spell. I have a hard time seeing him as a professional when he can't even have someone proof read his website before he put it up for potential clients to see. I can't write very well either but at least I know it.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:21 PM   #56
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Actually what really stinks about this thread is that the majority of the responses have been made by folks that have absolutely nothing to do with the transaction and nothing better to do than try to give themselves a rise by kicking a man when he is down.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:54 PM   #57
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Interesting reading. I feel sorry for both Tony and Kenneth. Also, why did Cag 17 have to bring RustyBob into the pissing match?? He didn't do anything wrong and to call Bob anything other than "Bob" just shows how much of an arrogant asshole he is.
(sorry Josh, but that really burns me up) Bob doesn't ever have anything bad to say about anyone.

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Old 02-17-2004, 10:13 PM   #58
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Originally posted by Randy70C-10
Interesting reading. I feel sorry for both Tony and Kenneth. Also, why did Cag 17 have to bring RustyBob into the pissing match?? He didn't do anything wrong and to call Bob anything other than "Bob" just shows how much of an arrogant asshole he is.
(sorry Josh, but that really burns me up) Bob doesn't ever have anything bad to say about anyone.
thank you for the kind words randy!!
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:17 PM   #59
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i was not going to reply on this no more but i going to.
first off kenneth never ask me to redone his work that he put on the cab he put the rockers on so crooked that i had to cut the bottom of the door off on the driver side a good 1/4 inch pie cut from the b piller towards the front when you line the body line up the door was to long and to think the fiberglass on the back of the cab to make it smooth with out makeing filler panels for the section that are lower then the rest of the cab and he din't even take the old paint off when i got it i grinded on the edge of all the filler that he put on and even on the fire wall he left all old paint under it i do that a lot just to check there work. to see how good they done it. and the rocker on the left side is so crooked that there is a good thick 1/4 and then it get tight at the b pillows and they were big huge dent on the back of the cab that he din't bother to knock them out a little bit before he slap on a 1 inch thick of fiberglass and a nother 1/2 inch think of bondo all he ask me to do was to leavel out the back of the cab and the dash so i put a nother 1/2 inch just get it stright and i will be honstly it ant dead stright but it looks good. he did NOT ask me to fix the back of the cab or the dash just to stright them a little and the cab couner was put on by him and that was a mess to so ya think that i should fix all of his mess up for free hey i did the chop and doors for a good deal but i cant buy rockers and cab couner and re put them on for free I WILL amit I SHOULD HAVE FILL THE ROOF SEAM for him thats is how the seam sealer was when he brought it to me i guess i should have bought some and re done it to but i din't thank. it is a mess take on my part am i sorry for that and he never once show me a pic of what shade of grabber blue he wanted i went to the ppg store and told them i want 1971 code j grabber blue and iam sorry if they did not mix it the right shade he should have sent a pic. and a sample and i would have made sure it match his sample i have called him 3 times 1 on the 16 and twice today and all i get his his anwser service. now for all you board members that are kicking a man when some one talk about them with out seeing both sides you ant much of a man thats all i know ya are like a buch of baby when one cries you all cries i knew all was going to favor kenneth so thats why i waited to reply ya going to belive him no mater what i said so what good does it do he put his cab in half of that shape his self i just tryed to work around his goof up the best i could.

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Old 02-17-2004, 10:36 PM   #60
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It seems to me that while your body work skills are being questioned here, your biggest problem is a lack of communication skills. If you did not have a perfectly clear idea of what the customer wanted you should have figured out the best way to get one. Regardless of what everybody thinks of you or Ken, that cab left YOUR shop looking like that and that's ALL anybody is going to remember.

PS. Punctuation is good.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:43 PM   #61
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:54 PM   #62
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Tony you can't possibly expect board members to see pictures such as those, and not comment. I would think you should be spending time figuring out a way to remedy the entire situation with Kenneth , instead of trying to justify sending out a "completed" work in that shape. If you felt the cab was that bad off ,why didn't you just refuse the job. IMO you accepted it , now its time to take responsibility and make this right. Bad publicity is not a good thing, when you own a buisiness. Word of mouth can make or break you.
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:56 PM   #63
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Im not looking to pick a fight with you tony, as i have no problem with you,nor do i WANT to have a problem with you. I did however get involved in this to the extent that i did see the cab before and after you got hold of it and worked on it. I have nothing to gain by saying anything here. I have built a boardmember friendship with Kenny XXL as ive spoken to him several times in IM and the two times ive met him in person picking up the cab and delivering it to him much the same kind of relationship that i have with you, except that he and i have spoken in IM more than you and i have, but in all fairness you and i have spoken on threads a few times when ive asked for members advice.
To the best of my knowledge and recollection when the cab arrived at your shop it was in pretty good shape for a standard cab. of course it hadnt been chopped, and the doors were opening in the regular fashion. Kenny had done some work to the doors in the fact that he had shaved off the door handles, eliminated the gas tank filler, and there was some work done to the back of the cab making it flat with metal and fiberglass, the dahsboard had a piece over the glovebox etc, and there was some filler on the firewall in effort to shave the heater box holes. Any work kenny had done was started not completed, first coats of filler etc, and while it was a good start, by no means was it complete or ready for primer/paint. The way I understand it was you were to prep the cab for paint, prime it and finish it off in the mach 1 blue for a SHOW QUALITY truck. Granted some things got added with the rockers and the suicide doors but that has no bearing on what the finished product should look like.
In hindsight it appears that rather than sit down and give Kenny a detailed account of what had to be done to correct anything he had done to the body giving him photos explaining him what was wrong, the cost of such repairs, and a time frame when this could be done, things were left alone. Kenny is a reasonable man. When we discussed the ways i could truck the cab back to him we spent at least an hour on the computer going over trailer rentals( which didnt work out) and even the cost ofrental trucks ( which was so far out of the price range that it was immediately dropped) We discussed blankets and strapping and everything else we could so when the cab arrived at kenny's house he would not be upset and he would know in his heart that everything was done to prevent damages to his cab. I will point out that Kenny has made many remarks to both myself and to others that he was very happy with the services i provided for him. I found when i dealt with Kenny he was quite eager to listen to my opinions and did not balk when i suggested things to make the trucking easier and safer for his beloved cab. when we realized the trailer was not an option, kenny was ok knowing i would still exercise the utmost in caution delivering his cab , and was fine with whatever i decided to do to effectively deliver his cab, and the whole thing was communication.
Forgive me if you think that i am kicking yopu when youre down, but i am not im simply stating my observations being a bystander who simply had a better view than most of the people replying to this thread because of my personal involvement.
While you probably did more on this cab than you ever bargained for, the fault of that is because you did not tell kenny the exact problems, or so that appears from the story related by both of you in this thread.Im sure that had you approached kenny he would have been receptive to your ideas. Had he not being in your shoes, i would have completed the chop top and suicide doors and even the glass and told kenny there are several things that need to be done before this cab can be painted, and being i do quality work i cannot paint the cab at this time until these things are fixed or the cab will look like crap and i cant in good consience finish the cab that way. I would then ask kenny to email me permission to repair these defects in the body work or authorization to stop work on the cab because it wasnt sufficiently prepared for paint and why.
I work in peoples houses all the time and i do the same thing a car and a house arent much different when you are improving either...and frankly i dont even take jobs with people who want shortcuts or half baked plans for doing something i either do a job right or i dont do it at all; If i screw something up i eat what i have to eat and get the job done right anyway, no matter how much money i lose on the deal... the reputation i gain from doing that makes me far more than the few dollars i saved by doing something half assed and getting paid.
Im not a body man to any great extent, but i was appalled by the spray job on the cab and the apparent lack of quality in the paint. If I had been doing the spray job on the cab, id have sent kenny a sample of the paint on a piece of tin just for him to verify the color i mean what does a stamp cost? the biggest part of the problem here has been poor communication and um the customer is always right when it comes to business. Ive learned from my first construction job that any details of a contract should be spelled out to the NTH degree, you can never use too many words to describe how a finished product should work. i even specify brands opf sheetrock and studs i use on my jobs to guarantee customer quality ( maybe im an idiot for that but hey i have no complaints in the end and i get more work than i can handle sometimes) Im sorry for you that this worked out the way it did; the best thing you can do is to learn from this and conduct your business in a more cautious manner from here on in. Kenny, im sure has also learned a few things. NOW hopefully we can all get past this .
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:56 PM   #64
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Tony, I'm sorry I've been unable to take your phone calls today. As you know, I have been VERY busy preparing for my cross-country move. I was hoping that your calls to me would be to discuss how you can rectify the poor quality work on this project, but based on your post above, my impression is that you just want to argue some more. Some things you've stated here are incorrect, and so I feel obliged to correct them. As I've told you and others, I documented almost everything you and I ever discussed--

Quote:
Originally posted by Pardue'sCustoms
first off kenneth never ask me to redone his work that he put on the cab
This is incorrect. First, we discussed the topic by PM.

Quote:
From your PM dated 10-07-2002 11:17 AM (this was when you still posted under the username big71)
I have done 3 chop top and i get 600.00 a top and if you could send some pic . and of the area that need work and of the area that you have done allready i still thank we could stay around 1500.00-2000.00 with a chop iam trying to help
Second, we discussed the issue via telephone after you received the cab. You told me that I had installed the rockers incorrectly, and that they should be removed and reinstalled correctly. I asked you to tell me how much it would cost to get everything correct. This is also when we discussed the suicide doors. After you evaluated the work that needed to be done/corrected on the cab, you came up with the $4000 figure (the additional $2000 would be for the suicide doors AND to correct my errors). I gave it some thought and then authorized the work.


Quote:
Originally posted by Pardue'sCustoms
he never once show me a pic of what shade of grabber blue he wanted i went to the ppg store and told them i want 1971 code j grabber blue and iam sorry if they did not mix it the right shade he should have sent a pic. and a sample and i would have made sure it match his sample
I'll refer you to our email on the subject below. Included in the original email was this image. I'm not sure how much more clarity the issue required. I will also remind you that, once you purchased the paint, I asked you to take a photo of the open can. You did not. You also offered to shoot some on a piece of scrap and send it to me. You did not.

Quote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Hass [mailto:khass@poboxes.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 1:48 PM
To: 'Parduecustoms@wmconnect.com'
Subject: Paint color


Color chip is 1971 Ford "J" (Grabber Blue)... It was on the Mach I. Here's a scan of the color chart. The blue is obviously not perfect because of the scanner and monitor differences, but you should recognize it when you pop the can. It's BRIGHT blue.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pardue'sCustoms
he din't even take the old paint off when i got it i grinded on the edge of all the filler that he put on and even on the fire wall he left all old paint under it i do that a lot just to check there work. to see how good they done it.
Actually, the entire cab was stripped with POR-STRIP. You may recall the product review I wrote about it on this board (it was purged back in the "great board crash" of 2003-- the gist of it is that the first batch didn't work at all, and that the POR folks sent me a replacement gallon and it worked like a champ). In any case, when you found that I failed to properly prepare the surface, did you fix it? Or did you cover it up? I know you didn't mention anything to me about it at the time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pardue'sCustoms
they were big huge dent on the back of the cab that he din't bother to knock them out a little bit before he slap on a 1 inch thick of fiberglass and a nother 1/2 inch think of bondo all he ask me to do was to leavel out the back of the cab and the dash so i put a nother 1/2 inch just get it stright and i will be honstly it ant dead stright but it looks good. he did NOT ask me to fix the back of the cab or the dash just to stright them a little and the cab couner was put on by him and that was a mess to so ya think that i should fix all of his mess up for free
This 'big huge dent' to which you refer, did you fix it on the inside of the cab? Because the inside of the cab does not appear to have any such dent. And we know that the back wall of the cab is single-wall steel. How do you explain this apparent discrepancy? BTW, I did not complain about the smoothness of the back of the cab . It actually looks pretty good except for the paint runs, orange peel, and the crooked body line (or crooked roof chop). As for the 1" thick fiberflass + 1/2" thick filler + your 1/2" of filler... so you're saying the back of the cab is now 2" thick?

Quote:
Originally posted by Pardue'sCustoms
I WILL amit I SHOULD HAVE FILL THE ROOF SEAM for him thats is how the seam sealer was when he brought it to me i guess i should have bought some and re done it to but i din't thank.
Actually, as I'm sure you'll recall, we discussed this very topic by phone several times. You called to suggest we shave the drip rails-- and even offered to do it for no additional cost (I assumed at the time that your offer to do so was because it was just as easy to remove them as not while you were doing the roof chop). However, I explained to you that I prefered the drip rails as they represent one of those clear visual details these trucks are known for. You suggested filling them (like Travis at IFC did-- I even sent you the URL), but I said I just wanted them to be seam sealed like factory. You called yet again on this topic to mention that you had trimmed the bottoms of the drip rail and feathered them in to the cab near the door handle area. And we discussed this yet again when I reminded you as I was going over the "pre paint" checklist with you.

As for the rest of your post above, it's not relevant to the discussion. This topic isn't about how you're getting your feelings hurt about what people have to say about your workmanship and your business ethic. This topic is about the workmanship and business ethic themselves. As you denigrate me for the work I did on the cab before you got it, you fail to address the paint runs, the orange peel, the dry spray, the dirt specks, the fisheye, the body filler cracks, the pinholes, the overspray on the glass, the misaligned jambs, the unsanded dash top, the sagging door, the wavy door window frames, the wavy door skins, the lumpy inner door just below the window line, and all the other things that are wrong with the work YOU did. Until this cab rolled up the other day, I was extremely irritated that you took over a year to do this job, but was excited beyond measure to finally get it back and see the work. After looking at the cab (in the waning hours of sunlight) I was stunned. After another look the next day in daylight, I was appalled.

In reference to your recent phone calls, if you'd like to discuss something in particular, I would appreciate it if you would write what you have to say and email it to me. You have my email address. I will respond via email and then follow up by phone when I have a chance.

Kenneth
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Old 02-18-2004, 12:31 AM   #65
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well it sure looks like we now know who cant communicate
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Old 02-18-2004, 01:30 PM   #66
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Quote:
........he put on the cab he put the rockers on so crooked that i had to cut the bottom of the door off on the driver side a good 1/4 inch pie cut from the b piller towards the front
LOL!!! Are you serious? Wouldn't it have been easier to simply adjust the rocker? I know he didn't tell you to specifically adjust the rocker, but I'm sure he also didn't specifically ask you to trim off the bottom of the door!


Quote:
Actually what really stinks about this thread is that the majority of the responses have been made by folks that have absolutely nothing to do with the transaction and nothing better to do than try to give themselves a rise by kicking a man when he is down.
True. I wasn't involved in this situation, but I talk to Kenneth on a regular basis so I know went on during this whole ordeal. Besides that, my comments are based on the pictures I've seen and what Tony said he did to the truck.
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Old 02-18-2004, 02:55 PM   #67
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Bringing up Tony's grammar is irrevelant to this thread really. It sounds like this thread has run it's course out in the open. It's good to express your opinion on the review forum, that's what it's for but when it gets personal, that's not necessary. This thread has surely enlightened all of us in the sense of get it in writing so there is no hassle at the end. When things change during the project, get that in writing as well. I'm not on either side of these guys. I saw one of Kens pics where it looks like he filled the gas filler with a hunk of bondo. Maybe Tony was going to fill it with metal, who knows?. The bottom line as stated many times is that Tony was given a cab that had been started with poor teqniques and tried to improve along the way while keeping the cost down. Unfortunately, he cut alot of corners in trying to do so (just plain wrong) and now here we are!. Timspeed just got an estimate on the paint and body forum in writing with a breakdown. Tim now has 2 simple choices: Take it or leave it!. Hopefully we all learn from this thread.
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Old 02-18-2004, 03:17 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by c10crazy
I saw one of Kens pics where it looks like he filled the gas filler with a hunk of bondo. Maybe Tony was going to fill it with metal, who knows?.
It was welded with a filler panel like those made by ebfabman.
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Old 02-18-2004, 05:09 PM   #69
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XXL, I apologize for that comment. In the pics, it looked like bondo to me as the shot wasn't real close and I have an average monitor. Again, I apologize as I stand corrected.
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Old 02-19-2004, 01:01 AM   #70
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me and xxl has came to agreement on this i just wanted to let every one to know and he should reply in the next day or two
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Old 02-19-2004, 01:50 AM   #71
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Good deal.
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Old 02-19-2004, 09:15 AM   #72
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Guys, I know that there was no excuse for some of the things that I have said on this post. I agree with the things you have said about me staying out of the situation. Tony's computer was down and he asked me to reply for him. To XXL and Old Rusty, I don't think that an appology is enough but that is all that I can say. I really hope XXL and Tony can get this worked out. Sometimes you try to defend a friend and you say way too much in the process. Honestly in hindsight, I should have kept my trap shut. As for the pissing match, it wasn't meant to come out that way. I vented at you guys when I should have not said a word and for that I am sorry. I have learned a lot from this post and you will probably not see my name much anymore. I know that will make most of you very happy.
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Old 02-19-2004, 10:54 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by cag17
I have learned a lot from this post and you will probably not see my name much anymore. I know that will make most of you very happy.
That doesn't make me very happy. The whole situation is ugly. I don't enjoy conflict between board members at all. There are a lot of good people on this board and I think it's a shame that we might lose some members over the incident.
I'm glad to hear that XXL and Tony are working it out. It's too bad it had to come to this to make it happen. Even I learned a few lessons.
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Old 02-19-2004, 09:26 PM   #74
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im very pleased to know that this is being worked out amicably too, but like the others that posted im sorry that all the mud had to be slung to get it to that point.
As to Cag17 i do accept your apology for your remarks directed towards myself, and as far as im concerned, there is no need to bring that part of it up again, its done its in the past and its forgiven.
I , in turn will also apologize for any remarks made in angered response ( although most incredibly offensive ones have been edited out i do believe).
I would be interested to know what the final outcome is with the settlement if the parties involved would care to share it with us.
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Old 02-20-2004, 01:05 PM   #75
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I sure hope you guys can work this out. I'd be dissapointed if anyone here hoped it wouldn't.

It's just hard to ignore the obvious pattern here. Kenneth has always been a very articulate person who does communicate effectively, but can sometimes come across as arrogant (no offense - I do too sometimes). Tony has a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT way of communicating. He leaves out details, and doesn't clarify what he means up front (you'd probably have to talk to Tony face-to-face to interpret what he's really saying instead of relying on what he's written)... so I think the signals between these two are constantly getting crossed.

After hearing Tony talk about himself and his work I honestly can say I don't think he knows any better! He's probably done some work for people who really like what he's done (their expectations are probably VERY close to what he can produce), so so he probably thinks he did the best he could based on what he was given...

Kenneth obviously has in his head (and down on paper in various forms) exactly what he wants down to the last detail, so his expectations aren't matching the resulting product. That may or may not be directly associated to QUALITY, but often it's just unmanaged expectations.

This is a VERY common problem, folks. I hope Kenneth can manage his expectations a little better, and I hope that Tony can finally realize what kenneth expects, and if he can't satisfy the expectations then maybe he can help Kenneth get there some other way...

Good luck to both of you...
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