My daily driver/beater : How I turned lemons in lemonade

[mcbassin]

I thought this was a winter project?.... excellent jump start Kevin. Watch out you'll be done before winter

[Chevy-Art]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

The last vehicle I built with this mentality was my 54 Chevy. I just cut aluminum block off panels for the firewall, screwed them in place and brush painted the entire thing with Rustoleum red oxide primer. I had more fun with that car than any other and it stopped traffic every time I drove it. Folks went crazy over it.



I had that car, all stock and bought a 78 Impala as a parts car, and took a week off work and built it. Mustang 2 front suspension, engine, trans, wiring, everything in a week. Man it was fun too. Ghetto sh1t, digging in coffee cans for screws and bolts, cutting up parts car wiring to get the right color and wire gauges I needed, and then I drove it daily for years. I drove that car 365 days per year all through EMT school, Paramedic school, Fire Academy, and through my rookie year here at the department. Something like 80k miles total. I had quit my job with the Post Office and was going to schools for a career change, so it was sink or swim. I had no income and driving something with a payment wasn't an option. It was a legit 18 miles per gallon car. 305 engine, 2 barrel, TH200 trans and 2.73 rearend. The stance and overall vibe is what made it so neat, not details and fit and finish. Underneath it was lackluster like this truck will wind up being. But, at 70 miles per hour in the fast lane, folks don't notice if you fussed over the details.

Is that a 210?

[killthewabbit]

Man, I love those Little Larrys valves. I found those when I was looking at bagging my old square.

Did I miss where you were putting the tank in the rear, behind the axle? Did you decide to put the compressors and tank there instead?

[PBFAB.COM]

[QUOTE=Tx Firefighter;6786379]I set it up with a 36 inch long panhard bar mounted from the bottom of the frame to the opposite side lower link. Much like a typical ECE Super Track Bar. Then I tacked my shock mounts in place and cycled the suspension. When I did that, it smartly ripped all of the shock mounts off. From dump to lift, the rearend shifted 2 inches side to side. Hell no. There's a reason that Ekstensive mounts their shocks sideways rather than up and down like they ideally should be. I had wondered why, until I saw it with my own two eyes, then it became clear. Facepalm moment.QUOTE]

Kevin-

Curious on more of the details in regards to how you mocked up the panhard bar with your earlier suspension.

When I simulate a 36" bar and start with it parallel to the ground, it only shifts .35" from ride height to 5" of compression (or from ride height to 5" of lift). A 25" bar only shifts the axle .511". The 2 inches doesn't sound right, that's why I am asking.

I am a huge fan of the panhard bar. It allows for a low roll center and when long enough the side to side shift is negligible. It's simplicity and advantages make it a shoe-in for most rear set-ups.

Nate

[Tx Firefighter]

[quote=Porterbuilt Street Rods;6789918]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

I set it up with a 36 inch long panhard bar mounted from the bottom of the frame to the opposite side lower link. Much like a typical ECE Super Track Bar. Then I tacked my shock mounts in place and cycled the suspension. When I did that, it smartly ripped all of the shock mounts off. From dump to lift, the rearend shifted 2 inches side to side. Hell no. There's a reason that Ekstensive mounts their shocks sideways rather than up and down like they ideally should be. I had wondered why, until I saw it with my own two eyes, then it became clear. Facepalm moment.QUOTE]

Kevin-

Curious on more of the details in regards to how you mocked up the panhard bar with your earlier suspension.

When I simulate a 36" bar and start with it parallel to the ground, it only shifts .35" from ride height to 5" of compression (or from ride height to 5" of lift). A 25" bar only shifts the axle .511". The 2 inches doesn't sound right, that's why I am asking.

I am a huge fan of the panhard bar. It allows for a low roll center and when long enough the side to side shift is negligible. It's simplicity and advantages make it a shoe-in for most rear set-ups.

Nate

I'm not qualified to wade very deep into suspesnion theory and design matters, but I'm no hater of panhard bars in general. I've had a pile of trucks that had them stock, and used a pile of Super Track bars. Good stuff. Center the rearend, set the bar length, tighten the hardware and forget about it from then on. Those were static drop situations. This is the first time I've ever done anything involving air.

I didn't take many pictures of the panhard bar specifically during that phase. About the best I have is the two I posted on the page before this one. I did go measure the bar though (its on my bench) and it came out to 34 inches. I'd say rough guesstimate, it was 10 odd degrees off of horizontal when installed at ride height, which is top of axle tube even with bottom plane of the stock frame rails.

I won't deny it, I went down the 2 link road somewhat out of ignorance and perceived ease. I knew up front the inherent compromise in pinion angle due to the design. I figured I could live with it. But, once built, as I cycled the suspension with a magnetic angle finder on the pinion, I'd flinch a little bit watching the angle swing. Then the side to side movement once I secured the panhard just kind of put it over the top for me. I sat there on the frame rails with my air hose and ball valve and cycled it a bunch of times with my angle finder and my tape measure and it just didn't speak to me any more. So I took it out and returned to square one. I will say, I've plenty happy with what I have now with the AOL. The only reason I didn't go AOL in the first place was my concern for spring fatigue. Then I figured the worst that could happen is I have to replace some leaf springs sometime in the future. I have a super fantastic local spring shop I can use if I need to.

I'm using a pair of Firestone sleeve bags and my existing Belltech Nitro Drop shocks. The way I have it set up now, at full shock extension, the bag is limited at 11 inches. At full shock compression, the bag is at 5 inches. Ride height is about 8.5 inches. I've read that the 9000 series bags are critical to have positive limits to their range of motion. I'll also set up my bolt in bumpstops to assure the max dump doesn't hammer the shocks fully compressed. One area of this project I have enjoyed a lot is making my own brackets. It allowed me to get better with my plasma cutter and press brake. Of course, if a man changes directions as much as I have, I suppose being able to make multiple sets of brackets is necessary simply for self preservation.

Lesson learned. There are my mistakes and failures for all to see.

And Nathan, don't take this as blatant ass kissing, but I'm real excited to get your crossmember under this truck. You've done the calculating and design so all I have to do is the install. That I can do no problem. I figure after all of my train wreck on the rear suspesnion, the dropmember install should be a welcome relief. Travis had told me he figured I'd have my crossmember by September 1 when I ordered it July 1. At that time he had a pre-existing order placed through you and he earmarked one of them for me.

In the mean time, I have a gallon of body filler, gallon of epoxy primer, gallon of 2K primer, and two gallons of paint sitting here. I won't be lacking for things to do.

[jhama78]

Excuse my ignorance on the topic of aol suspension, but how is axle wrap with only two leaves in the rear spring pack?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by jhama78

Excuse my ignorance on the topic of aol suspension, but how is axle wrap with only two leaves in the rear spring pack?

It's definitely worse vs the stock 5+ leaf pack. I wouldn't do it w/a big hp motor. Stock or mild it will be fine.

[jott_06]

If it makes you feel better about your AOL suspension, I bought my old Sonoma in 2008 with the airride already done. The only thing i ever touched on the truck was the body. The setup they had used only the main leaf and it was flipped upside down. It had Airlift 2600 bags directly over the axle. I had this truck untill 2011 and never had a spring break.

[PBFAB.COM]

[quote=Tx Firefighter;6790101]

Originally Posted by Porterbuilt Street Rods

I'm not qualified to wade very deep into suspesnion theory and design matters, but I'm no hater of panhard bars in general. I've had a pile of trucks that had them stock, and used a pile of Super Track bars. Good stuff. Center the rearend, set the bar length, tighten the hardware and forget about it from then on. Those were static drop situations. This is the first time I've ever done anything involving air.

I didn't take many pictures of the panhard bar specifically during that phase. About the best I have is the two I posted on the page before this one. I did go measure the bar though (its on my bench) and it came out to 34 inches. I'd say rough guesstimate, it was 10 odd degrees off of horizontal when installed at ride height, which is top of axle tube even with bottom plane of the stock frame rails.

I won't deny it, I went down the 2 link road somewhat out of ignorance and perceived ease. I knew up front the inherent compromise in pinion angle due to the design. I figured I could live with it. But, once built, as I cycled the suspension with a magnetic angle finder on the pinion, I'd flinch a little bit watching the angle swing. Then the side to side movement once I secured the panhard just kind of put it over the top for me. I sat there on the frame rails with my air hose and ball valve and cycled it a bunch of times with my angle finder and my tape measure and it just didn't speak to me any more. So I took it out and returned to square one. I will say, I've plenty happy with what I have now with the AOL. The only reason I didn't go AOL in the first place was my concern for spring fatigue. Then I figured the worst that could happen is I have to replace some leaf springs sometime in the future. I have a super fantastic local spring shop I can use if I need to.

I'm using a pair of Firestone sleeve bags and my existing Belltech Nitro Drop shocks. The way I have it set up now, at full shock extension, the bag is limited at 11 inches. At full shock compression, the bag is at 5 inches. Ride height is about 8.5 inches. I've read that the 9000 series bags are critical to have positive limits to their range of motion. I'll also set up my bolt in bumpstops to assure the max dump doesn't hammer the shocks fully compressed. One area of this project I have enjoyed a lot is making my own brackets. It allowed me to get better with my plasma cutter and press brake. Of course, if a man changes directions as much as I have, I suppose being able to make multiple sets of brackets is necessary simply for self preservation.

Lesson learned. There are my mistakes and failures for all to see.

And Nathan, don't take this as blatant ass kissing, but I'm real excited to get your crossmember under this truck. You've done the calculating and design so all I have to do is the install. That I can do no problem. I figure after all of my train wreck on the rear suspesnion, the dropmember install should be a welcome relief. Travis had told me he figured I'd have my crossmember by September 1 when I ordered it July 1. At that time he had a pre-existing order placed through you and he earmarked one of them for me.

In the mean time, I have a gallon of body filler, gallon of epoxy primer, gallon of 2K primer, and two gallons of paint sitting here. I won't be lacking for things to do.

Sounds good Kevin!

I was just curious on the set-up and original layout for mock-up.

I am not a big fan of the short bar 2-link due to the pinion angle change... and I could see how that coupled with some lateral shift could turn you off rather quickly.

Sounds like you have plenty to do before the front parts arrive!

Nate

[SCOTI]

[quote=Porterbuilt Street Rods;6790748]

Originally Posted by Tx Firefighter

Sounds good Kevin!

I was just curious on the set-up and original layout for mock-up.

I am not a big fan of the short bar 2-link due to the pinion angle change... and I could see how that coupled with some lateral shift could turn you off rather quickly.

Sounds like you have plenty to do before the front parts arrive!

Nate

I discussed possibilities w/Kevin when he was in his planning stage. I've seen alot of 2-link/Billy Bar set-ups out there so they can work I've just never experienced the how good or how bad they really are. The guys you ask about them always say they're great & that anyone who says differently is not going by actual experience; just heresay.

So I did comparisons between a 67-72 T/A & a short (</=24" length) bar for pinion change & there was a significant difference from what I recall (I wrote down the info but that was years ago). Combine that w/the fixed poly bushings most use & I don't see how they can work well much less be be 'great'.

That being said, we discussed the use of the swivel joint (you know how much I like 'em ) to compensate for the possible binding but didn't discuss shock layout & I feel there prob wouldn't have been the dramatic 'snap' of the tacked mounts had they been set-up to allow lateral shift to compensate for axle movement during suspension travel. I know my original concept for my 'tweaked' 4-bar was similar until I considered that axle had the ability to shift approx .500" through it's 4.5" of movement from ride height (approx 26" Panhard bar). With mine set-up to allow the side shift, there are no issues w/bind (I can install the shocks @ full extension or compression; but it's gets REAL tight between the PHB axle mount & the pass side shock when on the bumpstops). There's not much room for the PHB, PHB mount, shocks & 2.5" exhaust pipe.....

[PBFAB.COM]

[quote=SCOTI;6790782]

Originally Posted by Porterbuilt Street Rods

I discussed possibilities w/Kevin when he was in his planning stage. I've seen alot of 2-link/Billy Bar set-ups out there so they can work I've just never experienced the how good or how bad they really are. The guys you ask about them always say they're great & that anyone who says differently is not going by actual experience; just heresay.

So I did comparisons between a 67-72 T/A & a short (</=24" length) bar for pinion change & there was a significant difference from what I recall (I wrote down the info but that was years ago). Combine that w/the fixed poly bushings most use & I don't see how they can work well much less be be 'great'.

That being said, we discussed the use of the swivel joint (you know how much I like 'em ) to compensate for the possible binding but didn't discuss shock layout & I feel there prob wouldn't have been the dramatic 'snap' of the tacked mounts had they been set-up to allow lateral shift to compensate for axle movement during suspension travel. I know my original concept for my 'tweaked' 4-bar was similar until I considered that axle had the ability to shift approx .500" through it's 4.5" of movement from ride height (approx 26" Panhard bar). With mine set-up to allow the side shift, there are no issues w/bind (I can install the shocks @ full extension or compression; but it's gets REAL tight between the PHB axle mount & the pass side shock when on the bumpstops). There's not much room for the PHB, PHB mount, shocks & 2.5" exhaust pipe.....

The 2-link is definitely one of those areas where LENGTH MATTERS. Longer the bar, the larger the arc of the suspension travel, and thus the lesser amount of pinion change through travel. There are always Pros and Cons to any suspension configuration.... no such thing as the "best of everything" when it comes to suspension systems. One just has to make a list of "must haves" and then pick the system that best meets the needs of the list.

2-links are quite popular for their simplicity and cost. They work well under certain parameters. For example if you like to drive at a certain height that the travel range is within a 3" variance... with a proper 2-link set up correctly for these conditions, one might not ever have any issues or concerns with the pinion angle change (a few degrees of pinion angle change = driveline harmonics). BUT if one plans to drive the truck at say 5" off the ground and also wants to drive it at 1" off the ground AND also wants to drive it at 10" off the ground (9" or so of range)..... there will be a ton of driveline issues that present themselves over time.

[Jonboy]

[quote=Porterbuilt Street Rods;6790843]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

The 2-link is definitely one of those areas where LENGTH MATTERS. Longer the bar, the larger the arc of the suspension travel, and thus the lesser amount of pinion change through travel. There are always Pros and Cons to any suspension configuration.... no such thing as the "best of everything" when it comes to suspension systems. One just has to make a list of "must haves" and then pick the system that best meets the needs of the list.

2-links are quite popular for their simplicity and cost. They work well under certain parameters. For example if you like to drive at a certain height that the travel range is within a 3" variance... with a proper 2-link set up correctly for these conditions, one might not ever have any issues or concerns with the pinion angle change (a few degrees of pinion angle change = driveline harmonics). BUT if one plans to drive the truck at say 5" off the ground and also wants to drive it at 1" off the ground AND also wants to drive it at 10" off the ground (9" or so of range)..... there will be a ton of driveline issues that present themselves over time.

Would the pinion angle change be an issue with anything that would shift 9" in ride height? Just asking, because I am curious. When I converted my truck to 1/2 ton hangers and did the flip kit, the pinion angle became totally hosed. I haven't done anything to it just yet (still trying to get it running first), but curious to how the main air ride systems in use might affect the pinion angle. Sorry to hijack your thread Kevin.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

Would the pinion angle change be an issue with anything that would shift 9" in ride height? Just asking, because I am curious. When I converted my truck to 1/2 ton hangers and did the flip kit, the pinion angle became totally hosed. I haven't done anything to it just yet (still trying to get it running first), but curious to how the main air ride systems in use might affect the pinion angle. Sorry to hijack your thread Kevin.

Shouldn't be any different vs air ride set-ups. Just reset the pinion/driveline angles accordingly.

[Tx Firefighter]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

I thought this was a winter project?.... excellent jump start Kevin. Watch out you'll be done before winter

I accidentally got my days confused. It appears I did start a little bit before winter set in. There's no chance of getting it done too early though. My goal is to drive it to the Decatur Swap Meet in late February. Twice before in my life I've made that a goal on a truck build and both times I accomplished it. Let's hope I can make it a threepeat

Originally Posted by Chevy-Art

Is that a 210?

No sir. Business coupe. No rear seat from the factory and the rear quarter windows were fixed and not able to be rolled down.

Originally Posted by killthewabbit

Man, I love those Little Larrys valves. I found those when I was looking at bagging my old square.

Did I miss where you were putting the tank in the rear, behind the axle? Did you decide to put the compressors and tank there instead?

I was hesitant to relocate the tank. I can't give a solid reason why I guess. My stock tank and sending unit are both new and were bought by me when I shortened the wheelbase. Mainly, I'm not building it to lay on the ground, so the tank being flush with the bottom of the frame rails doesn't cause me too much heartburn.

Originally Posted by jhama78

Excuse my ignorance on the topic of aol suspension, but how is axle wrap with only two leaves in the rear spring pack?

Originally Posted by jott_06

If it makes you feel better about your AOL suspension, I bought my old Sonoma in 2008 with the airride already done. The only thing i ever touched on the truck was the body. The setup they had used only the main leaf and it was flipped upside down. It had Airlift 2600 bags directly over the axle. I had this truck untill 2011 and never had a spring break.

I'm comfortable with the axle wrap deal. I've lowered several of my trucks in years past by thinning out the leaf packs. One of them was my 83 stepside which I did in 1991. The guy I sold it to still drives it daily around here and it's still running thin leaf packs. The others were Nissan mini trucks which I won't discuss any further in an attempt to not tarnish my reputation. I am pretty much an 8:1 compression small block guy with 3:08 gears truck builder. I wouldn't know how to build a high horsepower hot rod if my life depended on it. I bet it's been over a year since I even chirped a tire, and that was in my Honda when I accidentally popped the clutch out.

Today I did a bunch of wiring and air plumbing. To power the compressors I ran two individual 8ga wires through two circuit breakers from the battery along the frame rail to the rear power buss bar. Then I plumbed all the air lines throughout the truck and up to the dash valves. Since I'm waiting on the dropmember, I just ran several feet of air line out to each front corner and tied it up out of the way until they're needed.



I'm still waiting on a couple of Viair lederhosen with check valves to arrive from a slow ass eBay seller. 9 days waiting so far and the seller is less than 60 miles from my house. They supplied a tracking number immediately but didn't actually drop the package into the system for 7 days.

Full up. It's about equivalent to 5 inch static rear drop or so.



Mostly full dump. Maybe an inch from fully compressed.



I'm confident that when I dropmember the front, combined with that back setup, it's going to sit down plenty low enough to make a statement.

And here's why I'll be pretty quiet for the foreseeable future. Nothing glamorous about what this entails.



I've used Summit paint products before with good success. If anyone is curious, it's just re-labeled Kirker brand urethane paint. Not top tier stuff, more of a budget line like Omni or whatever. On this paint job, the paint surely won't be the weak link. It will be the trigger operator I'm sure.

[rusty76]

Sometime in the future I hope to see some pics of your AOL setup if you don't mind. I can wait. I just am curious about how you went about it. I know it probably isn't nothing new but I'm curious really. Post up pics of your paint progress and what you have learned along the way. Several of us haven't pulled the trigger on a spray gun in a long time. I've sprayed race cars but they only had to look good from the stands...lol. Thanks.

[SCOTI]

Kevin..... Dont scrap the Billy Bars. I'll possibly take them off your hands to recoupe your investment.

[Just call me Sean]

Not sure if it has been discussed yet, but why not do a triangulated four link? Are there clearance issues?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Just call me Sean

Not sure if it has been discussed yet, but why not do a triangulated four link? Are there clearance issues?

Budget & simple.....

[Low Elco]

There's another way to keep the rear located- anyone seen the Bearing and Slot method? I've seen it used in the front of street rods where space is tight. Seems like it'd be perfect for this application. Just throwing it out there, I'm a static guy myself.

[SkinnyG]

You mean like this?



A preliminary search didn't come up with much. Some FSAE projects utilizing it. I don't see why it wouldn't work, as long as the mounts are strong enough.

A panhard really needs to be completely horizontal at ride height, and as long as possible, to minimize change in lateral location.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by SkinnyG

A panhard really needs to be completely horizontal at ride height, and as long as possible, to minimize change in lateral location.

Yep. That's how I set my stuff up:

• As close to or just below axle C/L
• Parallel to the axle @ the targeted ride height
• As long as possible per packaging restrictions

On my duallys 4-bar, I get about .375" side shift @ 4-4.5" of axle travel (approx 26" bar). My 64 & old 68 have less lateral movement but their bar lengths are closer to 38"L.

I've never seen one of those 'bearing & slot' set-ups. I'm going to have to educate myself on their pros & cons.

[Low Elco]

Originally Posted by SkinnyG

You mean like this?



A preliminary search didn't come up with much. Some FSAE projects utilizing it. I don't see why it wouldn't work, as long as the mounts are strong enough.

A panhard really needs to be completely horizontal at ride height, and as long as possible, to minimize change in lateral location.

Yup, that's pretty close. Thick steel plate with a wide sealed bearing in it bolted to the axle. Works pretty good, they say. Added plus, you could really put it anywhere you wanted on the axle housing, as long as it was plumb.

[Tx Firefighter]

Raised full up. That's about equivalent to 6 inch rear drop in that picture.



Down. I don't know, maybe 10 inch drop from stock height. Thereabouts.



One thing is for sure, it needs more Porterbuilt. I think once the front comes down 4 more inches or so that it will sit pretty low. I didn't want to lay frame. I can't get behind the safety aspect of that.

It all fit between the bed sides. Thankfully my calculations were right. There's about 1/2" to spare on each side.



Next I'll be building bed mounts and raised metal bed floor. This old bed is pretty rough. It's going to take some effort to get it sqaure and true, strong and straight. I foresee significant welding and sandblasting in my future.

Been doing bodywork like a mad man. I'm taking each piece to bare metal to start off with a clean slate. Epoxy primer, 2k primer, Lord Fusor seam sealer, lots of sanding. I'm not saying that I'm "the guy" but I'm killing the bodywork pretty freakin well. This modern body filler combined with a 12" Durablock and 80 grit PSA paper, you can get one straight in a hurry. This is so much better that the crap they had 20 years ago.

[Low Elco]

Same stuff I use. Lookin' good! Supension looks sano!

[Tx Firefighter]

Forgot to mention, on the body panels, I'm sanding/stripping the outsides and sandblasting the insides. That door pictured above, I just sandblasted the jamb and inside area to get nice bare metal to work from. Things like those louvered vents would be misery to sand clean. The sandblaster just gives shiny clean bare metal in no time.