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Old 05-21-2020, 07:50 PM   #1
DeadheadNM
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Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Had the original 350 in my 72 Blazer rebuilt under 600 miles ago by a reputable then local machine shop that's been in business for decades. Character of the idle abruptly changed and an accompanying ticking sound developed. Turns out a valve keeper sheared in half and there's a chip in the top of the corresponding valve.

Not sure why this failed. Whats the likely remedy? Pull the motor, yank the head, and replace the valve? I've got the Blazer at a good local mechanic where I now live. Trying to educate myself ahead of the upcoming "next step" discussion to getting back on the road.
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Old 05-21-2020, 08:10 PM   #2
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Dont run this engine with that damage...

Safest path would be to remove the head and have the valve replaced...

The keeper set is a two part item, each tapered lock occupying 180 degrees around the valve....the keeper has obviously worked its way out of the retainer and caused the valve to cant over.

I would also be checking installed spring height and tension...if the spring is light on tension, valve float could have caused the keeper to dislodge.

The spring in the pic looks used...so maybe time for new set of springs, keepers and locks....

If the other side head has suffered any failure as yet, I would change out those springs, keepers and locks at same time. You can do those swaps without removing the head.

Finally,replace that rocker arm as it may be damaged now from running against that chipped valve.

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Old 05-21-2020, 08:47 PM   #3
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

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Old 05-21-2020, 09:14 PM   #4
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadheadNM View Post
Had the original 350 in my 72 Blazer rebuilt under 600 miles ago by a reputable then local machine shop that's been in business for decades. Character of the idle abruptly changed and an accompanying ticking sound developed. Turns out a valve keeper sheared in half and there's a chip in the top of the corresponding valve.

Not sure why this failed. Whats the likely remedy? Pull the motor, yank the head, and replace the valve? I've got the Blazer at a good local mechanic where I now live. Trying to educate myself ahead of the upcoming "next step" discussion to getting back on the road.
...sorry... maybe adding salt to the wound...
I downloaded the pic and expanded it, the stem head of the adjacent valve appears to be hammered around...check the rubbing face of the rocker to see if it is hammered as well....this engine may have dropped a cam lobe which is what you felt as a "change in character at idle"...

When you initially started the engine from the rebuild, did you use a break in oil ?
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:23 PM   #5
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Shouldn't have to pull the motor, just the intake and head with bad valve. Might pull the valve cover on the other head and inspect things.

Before letting your mechanic do anything, I would ask the machine shop if they warranty their work. They may want a chance to inspect it, fix it themselves or they may cover all/part of the mechanic's bill. Take more pictures before you talk to them.
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Old 05-21-2020, 10:16 PM   #6
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

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Ain't karma something!
Maybe.. but so is trolling. Trolling staff is not acceptable ever. If you have an issue pm me when you get back.
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Old 05-21-2020, 11:59 PM   #7
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

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Originally Posted by DeadheadNM View Post
Had the original 350 in my 72 Blazer rebuilt under 600 miles ago by a reputable then local machine shop that's been in business for decades. Character of the idle abruptly changed and an accompanying ticking sound developed. Turns out a valve keeper sheared in half and there's a chip in the top of the corresponding valve.

Not sure why this failed. Whats the likely remedy? Pull the motor, yank the head, and replace the valve? I've got the Blazer at a good local mechanic where I now live. Trying to educate myself ahead of the upcoming "next step" discussion to getting back on the road.
Man Pete, that sucks bad. Another possibility is the keepers weren’t seated all the way down in place on that one valve during assembly. I would think a good machine shop would have caught that as it’s quite obvious when they aren’t sitting right. I do agree with Aussie, I’d go over both sides with a fine tooth comb. Just for my own piece of mind on the cam I think I’d cut the oil filter open and see if you’ve got any metal. Good luck buddy!
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:24 AM   #8
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Thanks for making the time to reply guys. I really appreciate it.

The motor was broken in on an engine stand ahead of the final install. I’m assuming but can’t confirm that the zinc oil additive was present. It’s the second build I’d done with this shop and know the additive was used in the other build. I’m well outside the time frame for a warranty despite the very low miles on the engine. That said, the owner of the machine shop is a genuine, stand up guy and I suspect if I were not now living across the country from him that he would help make it right.

If the top end needs to be disassembled I might ask the motor be yanked. Practically, it’s tough to access given it’s a 4wd with the chassis height, the 3” rearward engine set back over a 2wd, the AC box, and the AIR smog equipment.

Also, I’ve not been happy with the cam selection. If interested, it’s a hydraulic roller cam MC22238 detailed near the bottom on page four of seven here: https://enginepro.com/downloads/newd..._CamShafts.pdf the MC22135 would probably have been a better choice for this build. Maybe I should bite the bullet and change the cam - heck, as Aussie mentioned I may have a bum lobe anyway. There was a trace amount of oil cropping up on the transmission dust cover so I suspected the the rear main seal might have a slight leak. That can be addressed to I suppose.

I’ll update y’all when I get some more information hopefully later today.
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Old 05-22-2020, 07:32 AM   #9
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Those cams don' list the lift. I was wondering if it was a high lift cam running into coil bind. If that is a possibilty then the other head should be checked too.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:13 PM   #10
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

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Those cams don' list the lift. I was wondering if it was a high lift cam running into coil bind. If that is a possibilty then the other head should be checked too.
I agree with this. Keepers don't usually just break or pop out for no reason.
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Old 05-22-2020, 06:15 PM   #11
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

The cam specs page on that link lists:

22238 lists lift as .462 and .470

22135 lists lift as .470 and .490

Neither would be a cause for coil bind assuming the correct springs were used.

22135 would be a better torque cam....

Do you realize that this 22238 cam is a retro fit roller cam, so you should see roller lifters fitted to your engine....if there are no roller lifters on this cam you have a bigger issue, but I cant see a reputable shop mixing up something so basic.

Seems to me that pulling the engine is best way to get this easier to work on...nothing beats a guy up more than trying to lay on his chest while
trying to work on an engine 3 feet in the air!

I would pull the intake and check it first...if you dont find roller lifters I would be in touch with the shop asap....

Keep us in the loop and good luck...

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Old 05-22-2020, 08:14 PM   #12
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Thanks again guys. I appreciate the feedback on the cam. Going stepwise. Removing the intake manifold and the other valve cover for inspection. Will see what that shows and go from there. I’ve greenlighted the go ahead to pull the motor depending on what that shows. Since we are getting deep inside I’m very tempted to go all the way with a cam swap. If out, the engine could be detailed before reinstall.

If anyone has a suggestion for a cam I’m all ears. The Blazer was essentially rebuilt to stock with the original th350, Q-jet, 3.73s, and 33” tires. I’d be after a smooth idle and torque that’s improved over OEM specs. No plans for towing.
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Old 05-23-2020, 10:43 AM   #13
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ml-mtc1

I think this is the cam I have, although I bought mine from Rockauto and paid more than $59. It seems decent enough for everyday use and I like the torque it has right off idle. I suppose that this MTC1 has been in production for quite awhile and that there could be newer and better cams available today.

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Old 05-23-2020, 07:47 PM   #14
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Good to hear. Thanks for sharing. I’ll keep that one under consideration.
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Old 05-24-2020, 07:47 AM   #15
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Sorry for your problem Pete. Hope you can get it back up and running without busting the bank. Pulling and installing the engine in these 4WD vehicles, especially with an AC box and a suspension lift always makes me nervous.
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:42 AM   #16
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Here’s where we are at now. With the AIR smog system, cruise control, and AC there’s a lot to dig through. Heads pulled and at machine shop for rebuilding. A rocker stud pulled out too so installing threaded studs. Will confirm that the intake manifold heat shield was removed at time of initial rebuild and all carbon deposits removed.

I’m told it’s a good idea to skip the front/rear intake manifold gaskets in lieu of a good bead of sealant.

I’ve got a few small detail items that can be attended to while the engine is disassembled. Will add oem ground straps and a NOS set of spark plug heat shields.

Thanks for the good words and helpful suggestions.
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:54 AM   #17
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

I've always "glued" the rubber end gaskets with Black RTV to the block and left it sit overnight. I then use a rtv bead on top of that the next day when I install the intake. Never had a leak, most of which were caused by the intake pushing the rubber gasket out of place during the installation. Lots of work to strip that engine down with all the accessories and brackets!
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Old 06-01-2020, 01:43 PM   #18
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Good to know. Thanks.

More pics. Mismatched valves some flat some tuliped??
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Old 06-01-2020, 06:27 PM   #19
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

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Good to know. Thanks.

More pics. Mismatched valves some flat some tuliped??
Apart from the mis matched valve styles, I am seeing signs of water getting into both sets of middle cylinders,,,,the clean valve heads are a dead giveaway.

My suggestion....before you spend any money adding screw in studs, have these heads fully dismantled, acid dipped and fully checks for cracks.

Also check the center two cylinders in the block...can almost guarantee the pistons tops will have much less carbon on them.

If the heads have no cracks, add up the costs of 16 new valves, 16 new guides, new springs and retainer sets including locks etc, plus engineering costs and machining the head surface to make sure it is flat.The compare that amount to the cost of a new set of aftermarket heads....you may be surprised.

Also check the cam lobes for wear, equal lift, good faces on the lifters etc...

IMHO, The head work done during the build points to using what was in the shop that day as far as parts were concerned....you deserve better than that...heck, everyone does....

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Old 06-02-2020, 08:39 AM   #20
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Pete, that is what started my upper end rebuild, pulled rocker arm stud, bought new GMPP vortec heads, then a scrogginshickey intake manifold, then a efi for the 86 tpi from fast, then a cam and timing chain and gears then cnp. it just snowballs, not saying you should go this route, but it is a good time to build the engine the way you want, and check to make sure it is being assembled as you want. find a good shop in your area, that you can visit, and look at the work being done

my mistake was not putting in a roller cam
good luck with the engine that goes into a beautiful truck, and congrats on your recent appointment as mod.
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Old 06-02-2020, 11:32 AM   #21
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Aussie thanks for the ongoing help and Jim I appreciate the good words and advice. I’ve passed along the concerns to the shop and we’ll confirm no cracks are present before going further. If the motor wasn’t original to the truck I wouldn’t sweat originality so much.

It appears to me that there’s greater than expected crud in the water passages for a motor that’s barely broken in. The coolant system components are all new and the radiator was rebuilt.
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Old 06-03-2020, 06:55 PM   #22
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

mmm, what sort of "crud"?

Were you running plain water or antifreeze or coolant in the system?

Did the previous machine shop change the water pump when the rebuild was done? I have witnessed "chinese water pumps" erode the impeller and have it virtually dump the crud direct into the coolant system. Have the shop remove the cover off of the back of the water pump and check the impeller.

"Radiator rebuilt"...mmm...does that mean the radiator was dismantled and rodded out and reassembled?

Did you check the heater core out when the previous engine work was done? I have witnessed a blocked heater core pass its crud out into a new build and create all sorts of issues...least among these is a leaking heater core!

Check out this link to Summit where they have new heads suitable for your engine, plus they are setup for screw in studs $353 ea...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...CABEgKKs_D_BwE

Your original manifold and tin ware will work....

Is the shop checking the camshaft where the stud pulled out? The lobe on that cylinder could be damaged...pull the lifter and check the lobe for damage.

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Old 06-03-2020, 08:33 PM   #23
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

The crud is like scale and can be seen staining the water passages in the heads that orange color. The water pump is new, the heater core was a correct NOS piece and an original Harrison four row radiator was recored using the OEM tanks. Typical green antifreeze diluted 50:50 with distilled water. I’ll get the impeller checked. As an aside, I did confirm that the intake manifold heat shield was indeed removed to clear the carbon deposits deep to it.

Thanks for the link to the heads. These are well reviewed. I’ll await the crack check and go from there. Wonder if these are still USA made.

The camshaft was deemed to be free of any defects but I’ll double check the thoroughness of the inspection.

Thanks again for the help!
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Old 06-19-2020, 02:14 PM   #24
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Re: Fresh, original 72 350 w busted valve keeper - how bad?

Just an update. I kept the original heads. Re-machined with screw-in studs, new valves, rockers. I did not have the cam swapped. Hope to be in the driver seat here soon.
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