396 opinions please

[68bowtie]

i've got a tentative plan together for my engine based on input from a friend and from reading threads on this forum. but i'd like opinions from the experts if anyone sees any fatal flaws. this will be a 2wd swb "street" truck, th350, 3.42 gears. i would love to have a slow lopy idle, but with good throttle response. those things together may be contradicting or impossible, but that would be my perfect setup. call it dumb, but those 2 things are more important to me than maximizing HP since i'm not going to be doing any racing. let me know what you think...

- 1969 2-bolt HP 396 short block bored 0.30 over (pretty much stock other than a recent rebuild)
- large oval port 049 heads (going to have a shop rebuild them)
- comp cams cl11-601-4 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl11-601-4
- ddelbrock 1806 650cfm carb https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1806
- ddelbrock 75613 intake http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-75613
- sanderson bb8 headers

any help is appreciated! i'm on a pretty tight budget so i'd like to get it right the first time. also looking for any thoughts on the trans and stall speed.

[geezer#99]

Wrong cam and intake!!
Tight lsa makes for a noisy, peaky cam. Only works at 4 grand. No bottom end.
Any cam with an lsa of 112 or higher is better.
Air gap intakes are made for the strip. Plenum runs too cool. Tuning nightmare. An eddy performer rpm would work better.
Carb is useable but I'd prefer a holley 3310.

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

Wrong cam and intake!!
Tight lsa makes for a noisy, peaky cam. Only works at 4 grand. No bottom end.
Any cam with an lsa of 112 or higher is better.
Air gap intakes are made for the strip. Plenum runs too cool. Tuning nightmare. An eddy performer rpm would work better.
Carb is useable but I'd prefer a holley 3310.

Agree with most....An XE- 268 , or 274 (110 separation angles) , should work good in your app. yes, the intake is too cold (performer rpm), good choice/ 3310 holley...one of my favorites! you can also look at a Lunati eqv cam . either cams mentioned, should give a little "rump /rump" @ idle speed , & roll on like gang busters....shoot for around 24-2500 on the stall. Longhorn

[Ironangel]

Geezer's right, you want an open crossover intake like the Edelbrock Performer 2161 or Weiand 2P-180. I'm running the 2P-180 with a Comp Cam CL11-205-3 with Comp Cam 911 springs in closed chamber 290 heads. That cam has a lope at idle and sounds killer through 3" pipes. I'm a die hard Quadrajet guy that would look at Holly before an Edelbrock if I were to ever consider another carb. To many fuel pressure issues with the Eddy's...I'm running a stage-3 350 Turbo with a 2000 stall and have no issues. Dont let anyone tell you that 350THM wont handle that 396 because it will, especially if you beef it up with a couple of easy and economical mods. Cool thing about the 350THM is, they weigh less and are geared lower than the 400's and parts are readily available and cheap. ~Ghostrider~

[jbarron]

Can you get decent pistons for the 049 heads that will get good compression?
396 piston choices are limited compared to a 454.
I have the 66 closed chamber heads worked over on mine and they work very very well.

[b454rat]

That cam is gonna be pretty lumpy in a 396. I had one in my 454 and was pretty lumpy. Not sure on a 396, but needed a slight dome in 454 with those heads to get roughly 10-1 comp. ratio.....

[Ironangel]

Originally Posted by b454rat

That cam is gonna be pretty lumpy in a 396. I had one in my 454 and was pretty lumpy. Not sure on a 396, but needed a slight dome in 454 with those heads to get roughly 10-1 comp. ratio.....

Yup, the 049's are a good head but are an open chamber 118cc head in stock form. They're REALLY good if you have them machined for the big valves. In a .030" over 396 (which is a 402) you'll have good flow but will sacrifice compression unless you run domes and or deck the block and shave the heads. If you can find a set of older closed chamber oval port heads you'll have a motor that will pin you to the seat. I have .060" over TRW L2240N forged pistons 22cc domes under the 3964290 (101cc) heads. Runs strong with the 268H cam but in my case I'm leaving alot of low end untapped with the 2000 stall and 3:08 gear. The 400 hp small blocks were leaving me at the line with their 4:56 gears and 3000 rpm stalls. By the time I could wind the R's up and get her her rollin, they were gone...

[68bowtie]

this is great info. sounds like i need to do a bit more research on the compression ratio before i commit to these heads. currently have flat top pistons.

a few questions about the parts mentioned. i can't seem to find a full part number for these you guys mentioned:

- weiand 2P-180
- cc extreme energy 268 or 274
- holley 3310 (is this a 750cfm?)
- lunati eqv

[68bowtie]

based on your comments, i'm now looking at the following:

- edelbrock 2161 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2161
- comp cams CL11-205-3 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl11-205-3
- i have a nice edelbrock 1405 600 cfm that i will start with. summit cfm calculator says i want about 650 cfm for street use...
- buy a 2500 stall converter, stick with the 3.42 gears and th350

i looked at domed pistons to get a better CR, but they are not in the budget. should i look for a different set of heads or have the 049's machined down? i'm going to put some money into the heads either way, i'd rather put the money into the 049's if i can get the CR up. if i should go with a different set of heads, what should i look for?

[GASoline71]

The 3310 (750 cfm) vac sec is one of the best street performance carbs you can get. I would think it would work great on a 396 that's been opened up a bit!

Gary

[Ironangel]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

based on your comments, i'm now looking at the following:

- edelbrock 2161 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2161
- comp cams CL11-205-3 https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl11-205-3
- i have a nice edelbrock 1405 600 cfm that i will start with. summit cfm calculator says i want about 650 cfm for street use...
- buy a 2500 stall converter, stick with the 3.42 gears and th350

i looked at domed pistons to get a better CR, but they are not in the budget. should i look for a different set of heads or have the 049's machined down? i'm going to put some money into the heads either way, i'd rather put the money into the 049's if i can get the CR up. if i should go with a different set of heads, what should i look for?

I think I'd stick with the 049's and talk to your machinist about options for raising the CR. Heres a link for BBC heads. http://www.minuit10.net/EngineCode/c...linderHead.htm

[68bowtie]

so i popped a head last night, i don't know why i thought it had flat tops, because they are domes! also, the pistons are stamped "40" but the cylinders measure 4.154". can't quite figure that one out, i have to assume the pistons are stamped wrong.

[72bowtiestepper]

The Holley 3310 is a good carb., but you may find a smaller 650 or 600 cfm works better on the street...even with a big block. Most people overcarb then have problems with low end throttle crispness, that's where you do most of your street driving, Just MHO

[Ironangel]

Stock bore 396 is 4.094" and .060" over is 4.154"...Clean the top of the pistons and see if there's more letters and numbers to go with that "40". My 396 is a .060" over with L2240NF domed pistons. Thats a part number for a 22cc domed piston but doesn't necessarily represent the bore. The TRW/Speed Pro forged pistons in my motor have an "060" stamped or acid etched under the L2240NF stamp. They were hidden under the carbon and I didn't realize the marks until I had cleaned the piston tops before reassembly. Your bore dimension indicates a .060" over 396. That equates to a 408 cubic inch motor like mine, a .030" over 396 is a 402 cubic inch. Everything on your list looks good to me except that Edelbrock carb. These guys know their stuff and when they make experienced suggestions I generally listen, thats why I have a 750 double pumper on the shelf ready to go into action as soon as my Cliff Ruggles Quadrajet gets tired. I took a chance and called him up last Fall when I was building this motor. When I mentioned 69 396 in a 72 C-10 he was very interested and quizzed me all the specs and said he had a 408 in a Camaro with the same set up. I told him I had a new Summit reman Quadrajet that never ran right that I'd like him to set up for the big block. Six weeks and $380 dollars later I have a Cliff Ruggles hand built 750cfm Quadrajet that he tuned on his 408. I have the build specs for that carb if anybody's interested. Throttle response is instant and when the secondaries open up it's game on! No hesitation just keeps pullin like 400 pizzed off pony's. Might ask your machinist to check the exhaust seats in your heads, I dont know if the 049's had hardened seats or not. My heads were the pre-unleaded fuel heads so I had hard seats installed. With the 049's I'm thinking you could go up a notch on that cam. I installed a Lunati Voodoo cam and lifters in my daily driver and REALLY like it. The Comp Cam 11-205-3 is the cam that came with this motor. I like it, it has good manners with a lumpy idle but only has a max lift of .485/.485 and 218/218 duration w/110 separation. Might ask your guy about this cam and lifter combo with those heads, http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2329&gid=287 and dont forget the springs. I'm thinking what little you loose in compression will be gained back in flow with that cam. ~Ghostrider~

[68bowtie]

ok this is helpful thanks. i have been looking at 3310's since everyone seems to recommend them, but there are tons of different types. can someone clarify if they all work or if there's a specific model i should look for?

the other issue i found is the edelbrock 2161 has small oval ports, my heads are large oval. seems like that would bolt together but not the best idea as there would be turbulence. any thoughts on that?

[DMT]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

ok this is helpful thanks. i have been looking at 3310's since everyone seems to recommend them, but there are tons of different types. can someone clarify if they all work or if there's a specific model i should look for?

the other issue i found is the edelbrock 2161 has small oval ports, my heads are large oval. seems like that would bolt together but not the best idea as there would be turbulence. any thoughts on that?

Going from the smaller intake port to the larger head port won't cause turbulence, if it was a large intake port and a small head port than that might cause turbulence if there was more than an 1/8" difference IIRC, or was that 1/4", not sure. Anyway going from small to large is no big deal. GL

['63GENIII]

You might want to talk to a couple of cam grinders as well. A good cam grinder can alter the profiles to give you more or less dynamic compression so that you can use your heads and lower end without making a bunch of changes to either. Its all about the valve event timing to get what you already have to work together. Many times, an off the shelf cam is going to be trying to cover a variety of different applications. Sometimes not very successfully.
I got a cam from Straub and upon installing it noticed that the LSA was 109 deg. Everything I had heard said that for an injected engine, 111 and up would be best. I called him about it and he explained that since the intake ports were not as efficient as the exhaust that the narrower LSA actually help in scavenging while promoting good intake fill of the cylinder. Made a bunch of sense to me and also drove home the fact that I know crap about cams and their application.
Although the cam was a bit pricey being a roller, I think I may have saved some money in trying to find different pistons, heads or even having a bunch of work done to the heads. We will see when I fire it up in the next few weeks.

As for the carb, I ran a 600 cfm vac secondary Holley for years on the 396 Im replacing. It ran great and got pretty good mileage for a Big Block. My only complaint was that it was a little bit "short legged" if you will. I think it really needed more carb higher up in the rpms. When I switched to a manual trans, I went with a 650 ultra and even that little bit was some improvement. I don't think you'd be disappointed with a 750 vacuum secondary carb.... unless you drive a Prius as your second car.

[mud.man.rj]

Sounds like your getting a lot of good help on this one, should turn out good and with the domed pistons you can keep the large oval port heads and save a few $ and have good mid range and top end instead of being limited with the small peanut port heads.
Mudman.

[68bowtie]

yep, definitely getting a lot of help on this one. you guys are awesome!

so after reading through a few bbc building books, and re-reading these posts (and others on the forum) a few dozen times, i've tweaked my selection a bit...

holley 3310SA: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-3310sa
edelbrock 7161: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7161
comp cams XE268H: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-sk11-242-3

it took me a while to register the advice on the intake (YES on the performer rpm, but NO on the air gap). hopefully i have that right... i think this combo will get me what i'm looking for, and i can always look at gears and stall once i get this on the road.

[Ironangel]

The only problem with the RPM vs. the regular Performer intakes is the RPM's dont have the pad for a divorced choke set up. No big deal if your going with a Holly or an Eddy with the electric choke...If you, like me, have never sat behind a big block in a C/10, prepare to be amazed! Big blocks have a unique sound and the torque they make will leave you giggling when you step on that trigger! Keep us updated... ~Ghostrider~

[AnotherWs6]

^^^^^^^He isn't saying Performer vs. RPM, he says RPM vs Airgap RPM. Now a few posts up I saw something as being too cool to run well...... huh???? What is the issue with the Airgap?

[Ironangel]

Originally Posted by AnotherWs6

^^^^^^^He isn't saying Performer vs. RPM, he says RPM vs Airgap RPM. Now a few posts up I saw something as being too cool to run well...... huh???? What is the issue with the Airgap?

I know what he wrote, I'm the one that suggested the Performer over the RPM Performer...Instant throttle response is one reason, the cam suggested is another as well as cold starts and electric chokes on daily drivers...As for the Air Gap, they're a great intake, except on cold morning starts on daily drivers. You need that crossover to heat the plenums to help atomize that fuel...

[Tom]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

i would love to have a slow lopy idle, but with good throttle response. those things together may be contradicting or impossible, but that would be my perfect setup. call it dumb, but those 2 things are more important to me than maximizing HP since i'm not going to be doing any racing.

I feel like everyone is skipping over this part.
The cam he originally selected is perfect for what he wants. Its EXACTLY what comp designed that cam for. A more steetable cam will not give him that lumpy idle he wants so badly. Sure it'll drive better, but he doesn't care. Rear gears and compression can make up for the lack of low end.

[68bowtie]

this has turned out to be more challenging than i expected! based on the general consensus of everyone who has responded, i feel like i have a pretty safe combo that will have some good lope, and be very streetable, but will be a kick in the pants to drive. i can deal with the missing choke provisions on the rpm.

unless i missed it i don't think i'm hearing any serious concerns over this last setup. i'm still all ears, thanks again for all the help! i'm gonna be ordering the cam and valve train soon. i got a quote from a local machine shop to get the heads freshened up. it will be a while before i have it all together.

back in the day i had a baby blue 69 dodge dart, hub caps and steelies. i put a big block 383 in it (tight squeeze). i added a big cam and intake, but left the rest alone. lesson learned. it had a KILLER lope at idle, got all kinds of looks when pulling into a parking lot. but man was it a dog when accelerating. i'm definitely looking forward to doing it right this time.

[Ironangel]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

this has turned out to be more challenging than i expected! based on the general consensus of everyone who has responded, i feel like i have a pretty safe combo that will have some good lope, and be very streetable, but will be a kick in the pants to drive. i can deal with the missing choke provisions on the rpm.

unless i missed it i don't think i'm hearing any serious concerns over this last setup. i'm still all ears, thanks again for all the help! i'm gonna be ordering the cam and valve train soon. i got a quote from a local machine shop to get the heads freshened up. it will be a while before i have it all together.

back in the day i had a baby blue 69 dodge dart, hub caps and steelies. i put a big block 383 in it (tight squeeze). i added a big cam and intake, but left the rest alone. lesson learned. it had a KILLER lope at idle, got all kinds of looks when pulling into a parking lot. but man was it a dog when accelerating. i'm definitely looking forward to doing it right this time.

Brother in law had a 69 Charger with a 383 HYPO under the hood. We drove it from Kansas City to Speedway Indiana in 1976 for the 500. That thing wasn't much launching all that weight off the line, dont know what gears it had. But when he tromped it at 60mph on the interstate, that thing would break loose and smoke them hides well into 3rd gear with the 150 mph speedo racing past 120 and climbing!