the ls engine debackle

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by cst69

did anyone catch the fake distributor

Yep. Also part of the retro conversion.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by TruDom

in summary: old guy only reads opinion of other old guys and unwilling to learn new technology; hates new technology.
should say LS isn't even new technology; it's dated now.

Guy whatever your age is makes assumption, jumps to conclusion, types it on the internet . You cancelled out your own comment. LS engines aren't anything new. Maybe he just likes the engines that powered the great Chevy brand since 1955 through the greatest era in automobiles that only became flawed, to some, once the next great GM motor came out. Given the half a century between them, the LS is not such a huge advancement, IMO.

I think the original poster is looking at the economics of a performance build. I know from reading his posts that he is building an engine and really putting a lot of thought into it. I know he has an end goal in sight. And I know he is focused on cost as well. That is where I think this thread sprouted from.

If you are under a certain age, I can fully understand why you "don't get" some elements to this stuff that mean a lot to those who have grown through the decades with this scene that so many fine young people have latched onto in more recent years.

Originally Posted by YBNORML

Posts like this are why this site needs a LIKE BUTTON

Exactly! x2

Originally Posted by truckster

OK, I'm an old guy, but I work on modern drivetrains (including fixing a Toyota hybrid the dealer couldn't figure out). But you don't have to hate new technology to appreciate old technology, either. Someday I hope to build a steam engine, and some guys really like their 292; there's nothing wrong with that and it doesn't mean someone is unwilling to learn. No need to slam people just because they prefer one technology over another.

Like!

EDIT: Just read the first thread up top. With all due respect, and aside from my previous comments, I just have to laugh.

Fake distributor?

Does that make it a 409 Wannabee? Never seen anyone try to make a small block or W-head look like an LS Personally, I want no more crap on my motor than needs to be there. That was always the way we wanted our engine bays to look.

[Richard2112]

I like old school charm with a little grunt. I'm sure the ls is fine but my own preference is 383 stroker, 9.5 compression, comp valve train and cam, vortec heads edelbrock intake, forged pistons...Gonna be fun when I get'er done

[jocko]

Hmm. I've got almost 300k mi on my 01 LS. Love it, never been apart, never let me down. Yet I'd never install one in a 67-72 (never say never...). Does that mean it bothers me when someone else does? Of course not. Someone's old truck is their own canvas, paint away. If someone doesn't like your painting, that would be their problem

[garyd1961]

Originally Posted by jocko

Hmm. I've got almost 300k mi on my 01 LS. Love it, never been apart, never let me down. Yet I'd never install one in a 67-72 (never say never...). Does that mean it bothers me when someone else does? Of course not. Someone's old truck is their own canvas, paint away. If someone doesn't like your painting, that would be their problem

Paint? Are we suppose to paint these old trucks? I thought we were supposed to just wash the crud off and drop a motor in them.

[Hatzman]

Originally Posted by garyd1961

Paint? Are we suppose to paint these old trucks? I thought we were supposed to just wash the crud off and drop a motor in them.

If that's the case, I feked up!

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by Richard2112

I like old school charm with a little grunt. I'm sure the ls is fine but my own preference is 383 stroker, 9.5 compression, comp valve train and cam, vortec heads edelbrock intake, forged pistons...Gonna be fun when I get'er done

I would love to have something like that. Only problem is the only gas I can get around here is 87 octane, with or without ethanol....

LockDoc

[YBNORML]

Originally Posted by garyd1961

Paint? Are we suppose to paint these old trucks? I thought we were supposed to just wash the crud off and drop a motor in them.

We’re not “supposed” to do anything. Build it which ever way puts the biggest smile on your face.

That’s the beauty of these trucks. They can be built so many different ways and in so many different styles.

[Spokanistan]

I’ve had a new production 350 crate in my 67 for about 8 years now and it runs reliably (it’s still got quirks). Maybe it’s just that I’m a millennial or maybe I spent too much time growing up in a place where block heaters were a necessity, but I’m tired of cold starts and waiting in the morning.
That’s why I’m swapping to TBI (Holley Sniper). I’m gonna play with the TBI setup installed on the 350 while I wait for my 408 LS to finish at the shop. I do love the old school style but it’s hard to argue with a casual 500RWHP/FT-LB from a NA engine. I looked at building my 350 into something with comparable power and realized I wouldn’t save a dime if I did it right.

Now anyone can bash on them, but beneath all of that aluminum and circuitry, it’s still the same old pushrod design with better tolerances and computer aided design. Plus, let’s be honest, this is the same kind of hot rodding that every old guy on this forum did when he was young. It’s just the 21st century SBC and all of the kids are swapping them into their cars. I’m not sure why anyone is upset about that, it’s as close to a revival of American hot rod culture as I think you’re ever going to see. If you don’t like them, that’s fine, nobody told you that you had to get one. Cheers.

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

I would love to have something like that. Only problem is the only gas I can get around here is 87 octane, with or without ethanol....

LockDoc

It's as much a novelty as an ls I suppose in as much as it's not original. I designed the inner workings for high cylinder pressure at low rpm for torque. Intake valve closes early in the compression stroke. It'll never twist 6-7K at the tach but should pull hard out the gate.

Earlier when I read your post and you said "I was 73 when I..."

I always thought you at mid thirties maybe. Guess I'm not the only oldster on the board.

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by Richard2112

It's as much a novelty as an ls I suppose in as much as it's not original. I designed the inner workings for high cylinder pressure at low rpm for torque. Intake valve closes early in the compression stroke. It'll never twist 6-7K at the tach but should pull hard out the gate.

Earlier when I read your post and you said "I was 73 when I..."

I always thought you at mid thirties maybe. Guess I'm not the only oldster on the board.

I turned 77 the day after Christmas.

The built 305 I have is a strange one. It is supposed to be designed for fuel economy. Specs are:

1989 1 piece seal block
Balanced
Roller Cam
Hydraulic Roller Lifters
1.6 Roller Rockers
.010, .010, and .030 Over
Scat Rods
Mahle light Weight Graphite Coated Pistons
Low Drag Rings
1978-81 305 Heads, Fully Rebuilt
1.50” & 1.72” Valves
Exhaust Ports Cleaned Up For Smoother Flow
Edelbrock EPS powdercoated intake
Powder coated vintage style valve covers

This engine was built for fuel efficiency
0 miles on engine


It came with the '72 Dually when I got it but I put the new crate engine in the Dually instead. Someone put some serious money in that 305.

LockDoc

[truckster]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

Someone put some serious money in that 305.

LockDoc

They probably could have bought a real engine for what they put into that.
(I know I'm setting myself up for hater comments.)

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

I turned 77 the day after Christmas.

The built 305 I have is a strange one. It is supposed to be designed for fuel economy. Specs are:

1989 1 piece seal block
Balanced
Roller Cam
Hydraulic Roller Lifters
1.6 Roller Rockers
.010, .010, and .030 Over
Scat Rods
Mahle light Weight Graphite Coated Pistons
Low Drag Rings
1978-81 305 Heads, Fully Rebuilt
1.50” & 1.72” Valves
Exhaust Ports Cleaned Up For Smoother Flow
Edelbrock EPS powdercoated intake
Powder coated vintage style valve covers

This engine was built for fuel efficiency
0 miles on engine


It came with the '72 Dually when I got it but I put the new crate engine in the Dually instead. Someone put some serious money in that 305.

LockDoc

yeah some one did put some serious money into that build.
I tried to keep my 383 build somewhat mild as I know I want low end power with no use for high rpm in a one ton dually. Additionally i was trying to build for some measure of dependability as opposed to a wild build that needs constant tuning. Fuel mileage? Well I was thinking about putting in a 454 before the decision to build the 383 so I don't expect I'll get less mileage than a 454 but should have similar torque.

i had my block zero decked by the machinist who also align bored, did a .030 over cyl bore and balanced my rotating assembly. I clearance the the block for the scat 9000 series stroker crank myself, ran Mahle Clevite 77 bearing shells at the crank and cam. Clearancing the block didn't require much cutting as I ran Scat (5.7 inch) stroker rods. My machinist (both he and his wife are long term drag racers) wanted me to go with 6 inch stroker rods and I know that reduces side loading at the cylinder walls but it also pushes the wrist pin up into the lands of the oil control rings requiring a bridge. I didn't want my pins in my control rings nor did i want a bridge across the lands. He also wanted me to use low tension rings which I have learned allow a little oil past the rings and eventually reduces longevity, and are more difficult to get to seat properly. All of that is ok on a quarter mile machine but this isn't one.

Used a set of forged DSS pistons assuming that if my initial tune got into detonation, my pistons would stand a chance of survival. Used a set of vortec heads from Summit (cast iron) and cut the valve guides down myself for a bit more clearance under the rockers. Meticulous work when you don't have a valve guide cutter. They came out well though. But because It's a mild build, my rockers are Comp 1.52 ratio and my cam isn't much over stock lift so not much cutting was required. I had to determine my new push rod length and ordered thick wall rods from Comp. I spent hours, no days buffing the ports on the heads but especially notable was all the sharp machining edges left inside the combustion chambers. Those had to be dealt with as they were razor sharp and subject to glow spots. Saved by the dremel. I cc'd my chambers and my ports. I'm going to run an Eddy intake dual plane set up for both square bore or spread bore. Used all premium fel pro gaskets and new ARP bolts. Checked clearance between valve and piston with clay, one head torqued down, had to get a new set of head gaskets. Used standard tension file fit rings (Hastings plasma moly,) and had the bores plateau honed to match. This build is about as close as one can get to a balance and blue print without having the spec sheet. I ran micrometers and dial indicators on everything. Probably going to run my Rochester, though I have been offer a 650 Holley double pumper for free, I just don't believe I need that right now.

My one regret is not starting with a later block with one piece seal and taller lifter bores. That would have reduced the cost of running a roller cam which fell outside my budget. That's why I chose the Edelbrock 2-piece timing chain cover because eventually, I plan to upgrade from the flat tappet. However the block was free and in great shape so I used what i had. Going to do the engine swap this spring/summer.

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by Spokanistan

I’ve had a new production 350 crate in my 67 for about 8 years now and it runs reliably (it’s still got quirks). Maybe it’s just that I’m a millennial or maybe I spent too much time growing up in a place where block heaters were a necessity, but I’m tired of cold starts and waiting in the morning.
That’s why I’m swapping to TBI (Holley Sniper). I’m gonna play with the TBI setup installed on the 350 while I wait for my 408 LS to finish at the shop. I do love the old school style but it’s hard to argue with a casual 500RWHP/FT-LB from a NA engine. I looked at building my 350 into something with comparable power and realized I wouldn’t save a dime if I did it right.

Now anyone can bash on them, but beneath all of that aluminum and circuitry, it’s still the same old pushrod design with better tolerances and computer aided design. Plus, let’s be honest, this is the same kind of hot rodding that every old guy on this forum did when he was young. It’s just the 21st century SBC and all of the kids are swapping them into their cars. I’m not sure why anyone is upset about that, it’s as close to a revival of American hot rod culture as I think you’re ever going to see. If you don’t like them, that’s fine, nobody told you that you had to get one. Cheers.

I agree! You’ll love that 408. I’ve thought about the stroking the 6.2 in my Camaro to 416 but I think I’m just gonna cam it and slap an LSA supercharger on it and be done... should be 600+ at the wheels when all is said and done.

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by Richard2112

yeah some one did put some serious money into that build.

I tried to keep my 383 build somewhat mild as I know I want low end power with no use for high rpm in a one ton dually. Additionally i was trying to build for some measure of dependability as opposed to a wild build that needs constant tuning. Fuel mileage? Well I was thinking about putting in a 454 before the decision to build the 383 so I don't expect I'll get less mileage than a 454 but should have similar torque.

i had my block zero decked by the machinist who also align bored, did a .030 over cyl bore and balanced my rotating assembly. I clearance the the block for the scat 9000 series stroker crank myself, ran Mahle Clevite 77 bearing shells at the crank and cam. Clearancing the block didn't require much cutting as I ran Scat (5.7 inch) stroker rods. My machinist (both he and his wife are long term drag racers) wanted me to go with 6 inch stroker rods and I know that reduces side loading at the cylinder walls but it also pushes the wrist pin up into the lands of the oil control rings requiring a bridge. I didn't want my pins in my control rings nor did i want a bridge across the lands. He also wanted me to use low tension rings which I have learned allow a little oil past the rings and eventually reduces longevity, and are more difficult to get to seat properly. All of that is ok on a quarter mile machine but this isn't one.

Used a set of forged DSS pistons assuming that if my initial tune got into detonation, my pistons would stand a chance of survival. Used a set of vortec heads from Summit (cast iron) and cut the valve guides down myself for a bit more clearance under the rockers. Meticulous work when you don't have a valve guide cutter. They came out well though. But because It's a mild build, my rockers are Comp 1.52 ratio and my cam isn't much over stock lift so not much cutting was required. I had to determine my new push rod length and ordered thick wall rods from Comp. I spent hours, no days buffing the ports on the heads but especially notable was all the sharp machining edges left inside the combustion chambers. Those had to be dealt with as they were razor sharp and subject to glow spots. Saved by the dremel. I cc'd my chambers and my ports. I'm going to run an Eddy intake dual plane set up for both square bore or spread bore. Used all premium fel pro gaskets and new ARP bolts. Checked clearance between valve and piston with clay, one head torqued down, had to get a new set of head gaskets. Used standard tension file fit rings (Hastings plasma moly,) and had the bores plateau honed to match. This build is about as close as one can get to a balance and blue print without having the spec sheet. I ran micrometers and dial indicators on everything. Probably going to run my Rochester, though I have been offer a 650 Holley double pumper for free, I just don't believe I need that right now.

My one regret is not starting with a later block with one piece seal and taller lifter bores. That would have reduced the cost of running a roller cam which fell outside my budget. That's why I chose the Edelbrock 2-piece timing chain cover because eventually, I plan to upgrade from the flat tappet. However the block was free and in great shape so I used what i had. Going to do the engine swap this spring/summer.

That sounds like a lot of work on 383 but it should make you a pretty reliable engine.

LockDoc

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by truckster

They probably could have bought a real engine for what they put into that.
(I know I'm setting myself up for hater comments.)

That's for darn sure. I guess the 305's do have a following but I don't think would have put that much into one. I'm trying to figure out what to use it in.

LockDoc

[Richard2112]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

That sounds like a lot of work on 383 but it should make you a pretty reliable engine.

LockDoc

That was a lot of work for a 383 but I don't believe I'll ever get rid of it. That means that with a few external mods, it could make a great engine for a light car someday if I decide to put a different engine into my truck. That's not likely though.

[Steeveedee]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

That's for darn sure. I guess the 305's do have a following but I don't think would have put that much into one. I'm trying to figure out what to use it in.

LockDoc

Not exactly a following, I don't know. I rebuilt a 305 SBC to put in my '68 Buick Skylark because the engine and trans were toast when I bought it, for cheap. I put the smallest cam Edelbrock makes and a Performer manifold and 600 CFM E-brock carb. Thing is, I also had a rebuilt 700 trans to put in it. It all came out of an '85 wagon. I dropped it all into the Skylark and used it to commute long distance for years, getting 18.5 MPG. Most of those long distance miles were spent in rush hour traffic on the 405 freeway past LAX. It'd light up the one-legger 2.56 axle with ease. Lots (enough for that application) of low end torque with that set up. It was no barn burner at higher revs, but I never set it up to be.

[special-K]

Originally Posted by YBNORML

We’re not “supposed” to do anything. Build it which ever way puts the biggest smile on your face.

That’s the beauty of these trucks. They can be built so many different ways and in so many different styles.

Where's that like button? Look here people, this is not marriage. You can love more than one engine. In my harem are many. All for different reasons, and I'm just talking GM. If you really know engines and what makes them do what they do, you can appreciate several engines for their individual attributes. Personally, I have a thing for the Pontiac engines and really want what they give in my short bed w/M22. I'd like to sit in my truck behind one of those and drive that engine around. The truck is an era build hot truck vibe. I'm playing on the fact that until some point later in '67, GMC didn't offer a V8. Looking at the GMC-Pontiac being put together at dealerships I see a perfect swap. Afterall, GMC did use Pontiac engines before the V6 and before Chevy. I see no place for an LS in this scenario. I love the engines of the '60s and have for so long. I will continue to love them with no reason to change. I can recognize the value of the LS engines. I think they are great engines. If I need what they offer over the old engines I'll see about one

[HO455]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

That's for darn sure. I guess the 305's do have a following but I don't think would have put that much into one. I'm trying to figure out what to use it in.

LockDoc

Sounds like a perfect engine for a Vega wagon or a Monza Mirage.

https://barnfinds.com/ultimate-itali...-monza-mirage/

[BCOWANWHEELS]

What alot of folk dont realize about modded ls engines is if you change them in any way without a reprogram it will throw a code. Once you reprogram it you have to return it to that programmer because he,s the only 1 who knows what he did. Its cost adds up real quickly. Yes i,am building a early style lt1 right now for my 72 c10 low rider

[Steeveedee]

Originally Posted by HO455

Sounds like a perfect engine for a Vega wagon or a Monza Mirage.

https://barnfinds.com/ultimate-itali...-monza-mirage/

I had a '72 Vega wagon that I put a 305 in. That thing was a blast! One of my younger sisters bought a '77 Monza new with the 305 in it. That was pretty fast, too, even with all the emissions equipment.

[SCOTI]

I'm good w/either one. They are both great in the big picture. I have big-blocks as well.

The conundrum for me is the 'choice'. I currently have 2 406's sitting in my shop. One is an older rebuild/used motor (older as in original short rod/dish piston motor) & the other is a 5.7 rod flat-top Hypereutectic rebuild. The older used motor has some Dart Iron Eagles that helped the dished pistons scenario + an aftermarket cam (unknown specs). The other rebuild has some AFR's sitting on it & currently a flat-tappet hydraulic Lunati. I have supporting parts for the sbc's as everything I have utilizes pre-LS drivetrains.

It's tough to choose spending $$ for LS swap specific stuff when you have sbc stuff already sitting around. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one w/this dilemma. My current logic is to build what I have on hand & transition toward an LS based set-up on future/planned upgrades.

[57taskforce]

Originally Posted by BCOWANWHEELS

What alot of folk dont realize about modded ls engines is if you change them in any way without a reprogram it will throw a code. Once you reprogram it you have to return it to that programmer because he,s the only 1 who knows what he did. Its cost adds up real quickly. Yes i,am building a early style lt1 right now for my 72 c10 low rider

That’s not entirely true, only major things like deleting cats for headers, tuning for different cams, injectors, forced induction etc. require tuning. As long as the tuner doesn’t lock the tune,(most don’t) any tuner or even your self with the right software, can go in and see what has been changed and update or modify the tune when ever it’s needed. It’s not uncommon for it to take a few data logs to dial a tune in. Also some companies will offer tuning updates for reduced prices or free if the initial tune, and the parts requiring a tune update are purchased from them. It’s a minor price to pay in my opinion for really dialing everything in. It’s a big part of why the ls stuff is a lot more drivable with big cams, stall converters, etc. it’s all in the tune.

[jjzepplin]

I've got my 406 in my 4x4 and she pulls hard. That motor is built with blah blah blah. But it was fun and still kicks butt. I just could not turn down the LS1 and T56. So here we go. I drove the 4x4 from Cali to Fl with no issues and used to be my DD. Hoping to make the LS1 Blazer my DD. I will tune it myself so I can keep up with the cam change and intake etc. If other people can do it so can I. I always wanted to put AFRs on the 406 and top them with EFI. It's only money I guess. It will light up both 36" Swampers now on demand so I wonder what would happen with AFRs.