Flat-Tappet Cam-compatible Oils * thread no longer updated by OP*

[Ticker]

The information below represents a list of oils that claim or have verified the appropriate (1,000-1,400 PPM) amount of ZDDP. At the bottom of the list are break-in oils.

Amsoil Synthetic Premium Protection Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information
Grades: 10W40 (AMO), 20W50 (ARO), 5W20 (HDD), 20W-50 (TRO)

Brad Penn
Grades: 0W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 , 15W-40, 20W-50

Castrol Syntec 20W-50
Grades: 20W50

Collector's Choice Motor Oil
Grades: 20W50

Joe Gibbs Hot Rod Oil
Grades: 10W30, 15W50

Mobile 1 15W-50
Grades: 15W50

Red Line Synthetic Motor Oil
Grades: 0W20, 5W20, 0W30, 5W30,10W30, 0W40,5W40,10W40,15W50,20W50

Royal Purple RP
Grades: 10W40, 15W40, 20W50

Royal Purple XPR
Grades:0W10, 5W20, 5W30, 10W40, 20W50

Valvoline VR1
Grades: 20W50, 10W30

Valvoline Specialty Racing Oil ("Not Street Legal")
Grades: 20W50

Valvoline Roush Full Synthetic
Grades: 5W30, 5W50, 10W30, 10W40

Valvoline Racing Synthetic
Grades: 20W50, 10W30

Engine Break-In Oils/Additives
Brad Penn Break-in Oil
CompCams Break-in Oil
GM Engine Oil Suppliment (EOS)
Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil
Royal Purple Break-In Oil

[PhilaTruck]

I know we recently went through this subject, but wanted to make it easier to read, so if anyone has recommendations for good flat-tappet oil, please post it to this thread.

Thank you-

[Phlebmaster]

Nice post Ticker!!

I was actually wondering about this issue for older Datsuns, with my previous truck being an 1973 Datsun 620.

The American V8 crowd, and the way those engines are built IS important regarding this issue. I can only speak for a Nissan L20B, which I had in my '73 Datsun 620, but that engine has NO resemblance whatsoever in the valvetrain to a PUSHROD operated hydraulic or solid lifter camshaft.

This is important because the hydraulic pushrod V8's are pretty tough on cams, as are solid lifter V8's, simply by the way the whole shebang is layed out. There is very little if any real valve clearance in many of those engines, obviously because the pushrods constantly ride the lobes of the camshaft.

That is in contrast to something like an L engine, which actually has a spec for clearance between the cam lobe and "rocker".

First, if you have a newer catalytic converter, your catalytic converter WILL die if you use diesel oil or too much ZDDP. If you don't have a cat, then I don't see what it could hurt to use the additive.

You can also go down to WalMart and buy Chevron Delo LE, which has enough zddp for pushrod V8 engines right out of the bottle. Actually, from what I've read, DELO is the ONLY real diesel oil that DOES meet the .12 Zinc spec. Rotella is NOT worth using anymore. I've found that most of the diesel oils are going away from putting Zinc and Phosphorous ( ZDDP) in the mix for emissions reasons.

If you don't have a cat, the additive certainly couldn't hurt in the right quantity. I'd run the DELO in my truck since I don't have a cat. I'd run it only to be on the safe side, NOT because I thought it would be the difference between life and death for the valvetrain.

BTW- I'm talking about the oil we run all the time, not for breaking in rebuilt engines. GM has a great additive called EOS for that purpose.

On another note, after doing some research, the STP four cylinder oil treatment (in the red bottle) has more than the required amount in PPM of ZDDP when mixed with five qts. of oil. It will bring the level of ZDDP at least to where it was back when our engines were new. So using any oil and putting in one bottle of the STP four cylinder treatment should be enough to prevent excessive cam wear. Hope that is helpfull!

[Ticker]

Thanks, I hope it's useful.

I have to question the Chevron Delo LE recommendation - Virgin Oil Analysis (VOA) shows ~1000 ppm Zinc and ~900 ppm phosphorus, and it's specifically listed as API CJ-4...which as noted above means it can't have enough ZDDP for a flat tappet cam (> 1200 ppm).

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...73#Post1633073.

Do you have different information from another source?

Also as noted every single oil vendor will recommend that you NOT use an additive on a regular basis - partially for exactly the reason you note (catcons) but also that too much creates deposits in the combustion chamber.

[Phlebmaster]

Originally Posted by Ticker

Thanks, I hope it's useful.

I have to question the Chevron Delo LE recommendation - Virgin Oil Analysis (VOA) shows ~1000 ppm Zinc and ~900 ppm phosphorus, and it's specifically listed as API CJ-4...which as noted above means it can't have enough ZDDP for a flat tappet cam (> 1200 ppm).

http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...73#Post1633073.

Do you have different information from another source?

Also as noted every single oil vendor will recommend that you NOT use an additive on a regular basis - partially for exactly the reason you note (catcons) but also that too much creates deposits in the combustion chamber.

Ahh..good point. I was going based on hear say on the Delo. Thanks for the correction. And the pointer regarding the STP.

[2badgn]

The lack of zinc in modern motor oils has been a highly discussed topic on the Buick Grand National discussion boards. Most guys use regular conventional oil w/ 1 little bottle of ZDDPlus at every oil change. ZDDPlus is available on ebay. About a year ago, I read that GM changed the formula for its EOS additive.

I personally use Amsoil- but it's very expensive. Amsoil's 10W-40 and its racing oil have enough zinc in them that there is no need to add more zinc.

Dont know how true it is but Amsoil claims to be the first Syntethic.

There are other good oil choices but i have always liked Amsoil.

Good luck.

[OhOneWS6]

Valvoline VR1 contains ZDDP and is available at most local part stores.

[Ticker]

VR1 is a racing oil and not really appropriate for street use - which is why I specifically excluded it. Virtually all of the racing oils will have 1500+ ppm ZDDP.

[hayhauler71]

I use valvoline vv855 not for street use but has 2300 ppm zinc and is found at most napa stores behind the counter . This is a 20 w 50 full syn. if your running a wild flat tappet cam.

[lovnthe70]

so is rotella good? thats what i have been running without zinc additives and i keep hearing it used to be good but now its not anymore either?

[Ticker]

Originally Posted by lovnthe70

so is rotella good? thats what i have been running without zinc additives and i keep hearing it used to be good but now its not anymore either?

As an ILSAC CJ-4 spec oil, it must have less than 1200 ppm ZDDP. Oil analysis typically shows in the 800-1000 range - not enough per cam manufacturer's recommendations.

[67ss&99ss]

I run Valvoline VR1 10w30 with a k&n filter in my street driven 406 as per the engine builder's recommendations.

"Valvoline VR-1 Racing Motor Oil is recommended for engines burning gasoline and full or partial alcohol fuels in track and street service." Quote taken directly from the Valvoline document in the link below.

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf

[kc21130]

Talking about filters brings up oil. As i said my father and his brother were SCCA racers from before I was born to the late 70s, mostly B Prod Corvettes, and they built their own engines. ((I was raised to never call a rifle a GUN and never call an internal combustion engine a MOTOR, although I never had to do the Marine "this is my...." bit..)) The books said use AD Aeroshell and since both were pilots, they did. AFAIK both Shell and Chevron piston engine aircraft engine oils have not changed a bit in 50+ years due to the static nature of general aviation technology.

I used Aeroshell in VW and Corvair engines and lawn mowers and in the Screaming Jimmy two cycle in the old tow rig, and never had a problem. The oil companies say you should never, never, never do this, but we did, and those road race engines ran moderately tuff cam profiles. The Chevy Power books said it was okay for a long time too.

I'm not saying you should do this. But it worked for us, worked great.

[Ticker]

Originally Posted by kc21130

The oil companies say you should never, never, never do this, but we did

That kinda says it all, doesn't it? Any oil will basically work, and as racing oils are used and then drained after every run they're designed very differently than a street oil.

As I pilot, I can tell you that aviation oils are far different than engine oil. The engines are VERY different, with very low HP/CID typically running at very low RPM (< 3000) for hours on end. They're also changed every 25 hours or less.

[katyjevoich76]

I am just about to drain the break in oil out of my 454 i used non detergent 30 wt and the lucas cam break in additive until i read this i was planning on just adding some of the additive with each oil change but some one mentioned build up by doing that.not sure what to do now.what about shaffer synthetic oil ?does it have the zink or does it not need it because it is synthetic? because i know some people that swear by that stuff and they use it in everything from combines, to racecars, to machine tools.

[Ticker]

Virtually all of the oil companies recommend against using an additive on a regular basis.

Kinda hard to tell with the Shaffer stuff; lots of claims but I din't see anything specifically stating their ZDDP levels. They say it "exceeds" API SM, which if true could mean they have more than the API SM required amount of phosphorus.

I found one oil analysis out there which seems to indicate they are too low in ZDDP with 856 Phosphorus and 1047 Zinc, and another one on the same thread with about the same results:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=961160

Based on those numbers, I would personally pass. Stick with the oils listed at the top and you'll be fine.

[lovnthe70]

Originally Posted by Ticker

As an ILSAC CJ-4 spec oil, it must have less than 1200 ppm ZDDP. Oil analysis typically shows in the 800-1000 range - not enough per cam manufacturer's recommendations.

well i just got off of the phone with shell and they told me that the rotella still contains 1,200 parts per million ZDDP, (it used to be 1400) so i should be able to use this with no additives which people seem to be advising against and not have any issues at all. i am running the cf-4 sae 30w not a cj-4 spec oil.

[Ticker]

Originally Posted by lovnthe70

well i just got off of the phone with shell and they told me that the rotella still contains 1,200 parts per million ZDDP, (it used to be 1400) so i should be able to use this with no additives which people seem to be advising against and not have any issues at all. i am running the cf-4 sae 30w not a cj-4 spec oil.

They told me exactly the same thing via email - they've been proven wrong by many, many oil analysis posted all over the net. This is why people talk about "old" Rotella and "new" Rotella - the CJ-4 specification is simply not going to provide enough ZDDP.

My guidance is still that it's not a good selection overall; if the straight 30W works for you, all good

[kc21130]

I just got off the phone with one of the guys my father raced with. He said the reason the oil companies absolutely refuse to recommend any "Aircraft" product for non aviation applications is that the lawyers have told them they must not as part of their liability strategy. It's so bad that they have a separate line of turbine engine synthetic oils for "aeroderivative" ground and marine turbine engine users that are actually identical, with a different name. Since there are several different types of synthetic turbine engine oils that are peculiar to one type or class of turbine engine, they have to duplicate the whole range, pretty much, with another label. They dye the oil a different color is the ONLY difference between the oil recommended for a P&W PT-6A and the ground version, the ST-6.

He said he still runs AD aircraft oil in his flat twin BMW motorcycle and in his Corvairs and the big block in his ski boat. He did say something interesting though: If an engine with older types of oil seals has been run for several years with regular oils, using Aeroshell may start leaks. It seems Aeroshell contains bentonite, which is a fine clay! He recommended Chevron brand instead because it does not do this, except in fairly fresh engines because Aeroshell is a lot easier to find. New oil seals tolerate bentonite and "get used to it" but if they are older it is rough on them.

Our (two cycle DD powered) truck did leak a lot of oil, but we thought that was just normal for Detroits. It turns out they are not supposed to LEAK oil, they-as he puts it-"plenumstrate". The inside-the-block air chambers, called a plenum, condense out the oil vapors and collect them on the walls, then when the engine shuts down, they run off as a watery sludge--mess.

It's been twenty years since I've even seen that truck, and the Detroits are mostly gone from the roads except in a few old tour buses and fire engines. But as much as I drove that old beast and fooled with it, I never knew that.

[turbo350]

I haven't seen anyone here mention Brad-Penn. I've never seen a half synthetic oil before but its got good zinc levels:

http://www.bradpennracing.com/Zinc.aspx

[Ticker]

Brad Penn consistently falls well under their claimed 1500 ppm ZDDP during analysis, typically showing around 800 ppm Phosphorus and 1100 Zinc. There's been some discussion that there was an "old" formulation and a "new" formulation, but I still haven't seen a VOA anywhere near what they claim. I got in a Hell of a lot of trouble over this elsewhere...but I'm still waiting for a VOA that shows 1500 PPM ZDDP

It's really tough sometimes to sort this stuff out - there are the manufacturer's claims, then there's oil analysis...I listed the oils that consistently back up their claims with independent oil analysis.

[turbo350]

Originally Posted by Ticker

Brad Penn consistently falls well under their claimed 1500 ppm ZDDP during analysis, typically showing around 800 ppm Phosphorus and 1100 Zinc. There's been some discussion that there was an "old" formulation and a "new" formulation, but I still haven't seen a VOA anywhere near what they claim. I got in a Hell of a lot of trouble over this elsewhere...but I'm still waiting for a VOA that shows 1500 PPM ZDDP

It's really tough sometimes to sort this stuff out - there are the manufacturer's claims, then there's oil analysis...I listed the oils that consistently back up their claims with independent oil analysis.

Man.......... I think there are quite a few folks out there, myself included until now, that may not realize what your findings indicate.

In kind of an aside are there other half synthetics out there? Its kind of weird I thought you had to be either 100% synthetic or 100% dino oil rather than a combo of both.

[Ticker]

I'm just an agnostic When a manufacturer claims ZDDP levels, I call them to get their claim, and then look around for an oil analysis - or send one off myself - to see if the numbers match up.

Overall the best advice I can give is test your oil! It's cheap to do, and it will tell for sure what level of ZDDP is present.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php

There are all kinds of synthetic/mineral mixes out there; I'll look for a link that gives better information, but they're denoted by Group I to I think Group IV; here's a bit of background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil

[ripdog28]

anyone tested Royal Purple? just got some HP 10W-40. Im guessing based on Tickers 1st post this oil is fine for Flat Tappet. Only running a 540 lift so not to crazy.

[Ticker]

RP consistently comes up over 1200 ppm; XRP typically over 1400 ppm.

I have RP and Valvoline VR-1 out to Blackstone.

I recently recieved my Brad Penn 10W-30 test:

Phosphorus: 1026
Zinc: 1300

Just under 1200 ppm, but well under the 1500 ppm claimed. Other tests were closer to 1100 zinc, 900 phos - indicating some real quality control issues at Brad Penn.