Re: Make it handle
 

Congratulations on the win! What was better,winning overall or the vindication that you "did it your way" in an old truck ? That is a really inspirational achievement to guys who love their trucks and want them to handle. Thanks for proving it can be done. Do you have any more build tips or new insights you might be willing to share?

Re: Make it handle
 

Congrats on making it happen. Its a big inspiration knowing that it is possible to get it done. I agree with 72hotrod, any more tips you would be willing to share would be much appreciated. I would love to see pictures of your truck and its current setup.

Re: Make it handle
 

To be accurate, please give everyone the '411' on what your truck consists of to pull this win off.

Re: Make it handle
 

Your chassis' are second to none..that chassis under the F-___ is awsome! Did you have the doors on it this time?

Re: Make it handle
 

Wow! That's pretty impressive considering the competition. For those that don't know, Doug Renners 69 (DFresh) is a pretty serious contender.

http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/u...camaro1024.jpg

Re: Make it handle
 

Congrats on the win Rob!

So, how much would poly bushings help over the craptory rubber bushings? What is pro's and con's of rubber, poly, aluminum, etc. when it comes to handling vs. ride? I know you can't always have best of both worlds...

I'm not doing bags, I am going to try coilover setup, so I am OK with firm. I just don't want parts-breaking harsh ride. :metal:

Re: Make it handle
 

Interesting thread. I hope to make my truck handle much better then stock, but traction at the track will be one of my biggest issues. My motor should be making well over 500hp and I hope to run 12's or better.

For the front I've added tubular upper arms with 2.5" drop spindles and 1" drop springs. The rear has 4" drop springs and 1/2" drop plates and has an extra crossmember, the original leaf spring shock crossmember, and it has the coil spring crossmember. I have 4 new Doetsch shocks going on too. The trailing arms have been welded at the seams, about 1" every 1' or so and are mounted to the CPP crossmember that corrects the pinion angle for a 4" drop. I have almost 6' of boxing plates that I planned to add thru the center of the frame, in front of and behind both the trailing arm crossmember and the trans crossmember. Originally I was going to weld them, but decided to bolt them in with grade8 hardware so they can be removed if needed. I hadn't though about cross bracing them with tubing.

I plan to install a baffled fuel tank behind the rear axle. I mocked up my new LSx/200-4r drivetrain and found it to be farther forward then the sbc I pulled out. To correct this I've pulled the motor back out (finishing cam/springs upgrade) and purchased some plates that should place everything about 1/2" back of the sbc setup. My motor mounts offer a high and low mount position, and clear with enough in the high so I will also try the lower position to check for clearance.

I have been interested in a complete custom IFS with coil overs and rack and pinion steering at some point..and why I didn't by tubular lower arms. I want to replace everything (when my wallet recovers) that has to do with front suspension and steering. I have also planned to replace the rear coils with bags.

Re: Make it handle
 

WOW, well, thank you to everyone for the compliments. It feels great to know that we really have proved ourselves with this chassis. in the field of about 40 I'd say there were 24 serious competitors. We had put the word out about this event to other chassis/parts manufacturers, but none showed. The top three were a full second ahead of the next group in the field. I'll have videos up later today, or you can check them on facebook @ no limit engineering. Thanks again.:smoke:

Re: Make it handle
 

Let me answer a few. Karl, yes we will be in tX, come by and see us, & go for a ride in the Bullit. SBTork, if your not going drasticaly low, use a Ridetech kit on the stock arms, upgrade to urathane bushings, pay for the good shocks, and add a rear sway bar. Basemodel 67, I am not much of a fan of alum., or del-alum. bushings on the street. Urathane is a better choice. TO ALL USING URATHANE Drill the outer sleave and install your own grease zerk fittings in EACH bushing. Use poly-graphite grease. We dont want them to flex, but we do want them to rotate easily. CAUTIONThe inner steel sleave of the bushing shoud be as long as the urathane parts. When the bolt is tight, it should torque up onto the inner sleave, NOT crush the urathane bushing sides. MANY MANUFACTURERS dO NOT GET THIS. it is up to you to check. If there not right, don't use them. 68GMCustom, cross bracing is as important, or more so, than boxing. Keep that in mind. Urathane cab/core support mounts are also a plus, and no harsher than the stock rubber. A freind of mine made aluminum cab mounts for his C-10 (drag car) and it does leave better, but it's a bit noisy on the street. If you already are invested in the stock IFS, maybe the 'right' set of tubular lowers is a good choice. Problem is, the 'right' set havent been made yet. Perhaps you guys can convince Nate to build some with the lower ball joint moved forward 1/2", and move the shock out 3/4" to get more shock feel. Or, put two shock mount locations on them. Nate?:smoke:

Re: Make it handle
 

We could always make some adjustments to the arms if desired.... just have to ask. :)

The reason I don't already do so on a production level, is that the geometry on our Dropmember already corrects this problem.

We are also finishing up the development of a new Dropmember system... "Dropmember Touring Edition". It's name will reflect its focus. I am pretty much done with all my development for the frame-laying systems and moving on to the stuff that really interests me... performance! Maybe we will have to chase eachother around the track in the not so distant future.

Nate

Re: Make it handle
 

Great news Nate. Maybe you'll come up with a custom coil over/rack and pinion IFS for me!

Re: Make it handle
 

Thanks for answering my questions Rob. Also, a big congrats on the truck doing so well, i'd love to see the looks on everyones faces when they saw the time you posted once the truck crossed the finish line :lol:

Also, if you get a chance, I have a few more. I am low now, maybe going lower but not laying frame anytime soon. I have a fully rebuilt front end, new energy suspension control arm bushings and sway bar bushings. CPP tie rod end sleeves. And I am about to put in some KYB GR2 shocks, not expensive but not the cheapest either. If I were to get some different/better shocks, any suggestions? It's lowered in the front about 5-5.5" thanks to stock cut springs and 2.5" drop spindles. It rides good, but why not make it better?

I'd like to add a truck/trailing arm rear suspension to it someday aswell. Does the CPP kit for the pickups work in the suburbans? Nate, would your newly designed rear touring style kit work in the suburban platform? Does anyone make a kit that would work with some modifications? Has anyone seen this done to a suburban? This would be a down the road type upgrade.

I have a feeling it's going to be a really big challenge to make this '85 Burb handle well. And maybe it's not realistic at all but I think it would be fun to surprise some people in an old suburban. I don't need to pull any g's in the corners but I would like to do some "autocross" type driving. I don't plan on being really competitive but don't want to be a joke either.

Re: Make it handle
 

I'm in the same boat here just trying to decide where to start. When I start pricing out suspension, front ends, shocks, brakes blah blah etc etc then I look at a fully done chassis like Art Morrison or Jim Meyers or what ever for like $10G, the 10 g's isn't all that much more than I'd end up spending to make a 45 year old frame work. Am I on crack here or is the replacement chassis a better way to go? It's a lot of money all at once is the problem.

Have you guys seen this article? This truck sold this year at Barrett Jackson for $95,000.00 and really more like 105 after fees etc.


http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/1001t...dup/index.html



M5

Re: Make it handle
 

Hey Rob,

Whats a good universal sway bar kit to use on the rear of an airbagged truck (53' Dodge).

Also how stucturally rigid should a frame be? Im building a new frame for my dodge and i want it to corner and handle good but nothing crazy. Would something like this be good enough? (pic below)

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...w69/frame2.jpg
(picture belongs to abadsvt)

Or

like the one in the back ground

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...ng_chassis.jpg

Also what about a satchell Link, there suppose to lower your roll center if i remember correctly? Are the good for a rear suspension setup?


Thanks Justin

Re: Make it handle
 

SBTork - I like the KYB, its a good shock fot the money. I would rate my favorites as follows, $$ low to high. - Doetsch tech - KYB - Bilstien - Romic billit w/rebound adjust - QA-1 double adjustable. Ride tech is also working on some new shocks, but I haven't tested them yet.
M5, Complete frames can be a good solution and save soon time. We make a pretty nice a 63-72 chassis as well as our 47-59 Big 10 chassis. You can see then on our web site. Be carefull when choosing, some manufacturers do NOT include body, bed or bumper mounts.
FnLOW 69, ha I love this. Our bike shop is Fn'A cycle. - We tell some people it's for Fast & Accurate Ha Ha Ha. I would add a tube across the bottom of the drive shaft loop. I would guess there is a trans mount joining the front of your center section ? Pluss two small tubes, diagonally from the front side of the hoop, just in front of the rear bars - down to the top of your center section, at about 45 deg. All the mid-work is pointless if it's not joined together. I see many chassis (and get a laugh) that have very exotic center sections, with only one point connecting the two sides, may as well just run a tube across. Yours is lookin pretty good. The chassis in the background is a Morrison Tri-5, the one in the front is a Jim Myer 63-72. Chech out Speedway engineering for sway bar parts. they have all you need.

Re: Make it handle
 

Thanks Rob, the picture isnt of my frame but was thinking of doing something similar to it in the center. What about a satchell link are they worth the effort or should i run a parallel 4 bar and panhard?

Justin

Re: Make it handle
 

Thanks again Rob, keep up the good work! :metal:

Re: Make it handle
 

Re: Make it handle
 

OK, lets get back to it. Here's the big question, AIR, or COIL???? I am sure that everyone has an opinion. I get this question everyday, and sometimes I'm not sure myself. EVERY trucker/trucker wants something a bit different. So, here are some of my thoughts. An bag is really an air-SPRING. And yes, they need SHOCKS. An air spring does the same job as a steel spring. So, the big question is, do you want to raise and lower it, or not. Also, are you looking for the smoothest ride, or are you thinking about totally hard-core performance? Remember that a properly set up air ride system needs a control package. This can mean swithes, guages..... and difficulty in tuning the stance for the driver. For this reason, I always use a 'smart' controller, such as the RideTech 'E' series, or the accuair. Level sensing is great for street and touring, as it is the most accurate to ride-height. But, I prefere pressure only, if it is a race/performance set-up. Lets think about the difference. In a street application, my goal is to build a real car, just like you can buy at the dealership. Think about that. Can your wife/girlfriend hop in and drive it? Can you toss the keys to a buddy and tell him to run down to the store? If they can't drive it, it's not a real car! This meansit has to be simple to opperate, and trouble free. - computer controlled level sensing. Now, no one would expect to toss the keys to a race car to a stranger and have them drive it, not without a rundown of the controls. on a street car you want the ride hieght to stay the same, on a performance car, you will set each corners weight based on track conditions. Think about that for now. - My lunch is over, back to work:smoke:

Re: Make it handle
 

well well well......... Look what the cat drug in......:ito:


http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopp...06/lobster.jpg

Re: Make it handle
 

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH , HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA (breath) HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. OK, now I need a bit of help here, when its coming to air vs coil. You gonna help? For everyone else, this joke will take too long to explain, and would all pass the %^#$ out! Have a great weekend bro.

Re: Make it handle
 

I made a Speedway Engineering sway bars for my Sub. I got a 1-3/4" bar on the front and a 1-1/4" on the rear. I ride my truck @ 3" with Slam RS 72 front and rear with Rancho Comp 9000 shocks. I can tune the shocks a little. They are pretty good for the price. I can throw the keys to anybody to drive it....I did @ the Goodguys West Coast Nationals...let my buddy and dad drive it to the show. They didn't need to mess with the air ride except to lay it out. Thanks to AccuAir E-level!!!!:metal::metal:
I want to take it through the autocross and see what it does. It handle really well.... I just don't know what I will break.:haha: I should go practice driving it through some cones...

Re: Make it handle
 

Thats good to hear. Nice to know you have a 'real' truck, isn't it. I have used the rancho shocks before, and I like them. There are many good shocks out there. If you can, try setting your caster at 6+ deg. you'll be shoched at how it drives.

Re: Make it handle
 

I agree with you there Rob ....... 5-6 degrees of caster and .5 Camber....

Re: Make it handle
 

-.5° camber right? Not being specific might confuse some people....

Re: Make it handle
 

Negative on the CAMBER, positive on the CASTER. yep

Re: Make it handle
 

Like you know anything about getting a truck to handle in the corners ;) Hey man, Are you displaying at Scottsdale Goodguys this fall ?

Re: Make it handle
 

So for starting from scratch with a new frame for cornering. Any suggestions on what to start with? Tube size and thickness?Design suggestions beyond what you've already covered. The truck will be on coilovers, and I'm not in a rush, I'm starting with the research now. I've been going off of Chassis Engineering and reading that book front to back, but wanted to know about where to begin, besides with paper and then some small models to test bracing and such.

Re: Make it handle
 

as long as we have the caster and camber specs......whats the toe?

Re: Make it handle
 

Tony @ Ridetech.

I took this off the Ridetech website but it doesn't state the caster angles. Does this mean the Strong arms have the needed caster correction?

M5


Geometry - Geometry of a suspension starts with the position of the frame mounts and the height of the spindle, not the shape of the control arm. However, there are a few small things in control arm design that can make a big difference in how a vehicle drives and performs.

•We create extra caster potential by adjusting the fore and aft position of the ball joints. At the same time we make sure the wheel is properly positioned in the wheel-well so your new 18" wheels fit like they should!
•The balljoint camber travel is re-centered to accommodate the new lowered ride height so the ball joint doesn’t bind during extreme suspension movement.
•The perimeter of the StrongArms is contoured to allow maximum wheel clearance and turning radius.
•All shock mounts, airspring mounts, and swaybar mounts are integrated into the design so you don’t have to finish the engineering in order to enjoy your ride!

StrongArms™ are optimized to allow proper camber adjustment at your new lowered ride height without using a large stack of shims.

Re: Make it handle
 

Yes, They will allow you to achieve those alignment specs

Re: Make it handle
 

Toes are on your feet :lol:

Sorry..... I guess i could have gave you an answer.... 1/8" Toe-in unless you are running old school Bias plys... then you can go a little more.

Re: Make it handle
 

Is the increased caster 'potential' on Ride Techs a-arms from both top & bottom arms or ?? I didn't know if the uppers or lowers were responsible for the increases.

Re: Make it handle
 

I thought it was the uppers....at least thats what I understood and went with.

Re: Make it handle
 

Yes, we'll be in scottsdale. - Dirty Dog Saloon!!!. 1/8" toe in is just right on the street. If you go autocrossing (autoX), take some wrenches with you. When you get to the track, loosen the lock bolts on the tie-rods, and turn them to toe out one full rotation each. this will toe the truck out a bit, and it WILL turn in a bit faster. When your done, set it back and drive home.
LeftCoast, Start with a plan. Wheel and tire size are important to know so you can establish axle/spindle center hieght and ride hieght. Give yourself 3 to 4" above the axle for travel, then lay out your rear step design. Do your best to keep the lower A-Arm level or running downhill 3 to 5 degrees at ride height.
but a copy of Herb Adams suspension book. If your a computer guy, buy a copy of "suspension geometry pro" Knowledge is power, and it is way cheaper to do it right the first time.

Re: Make it handle
 

Thanks for the tips on that. I've got a notebook with all of my scribbles on those, and Herb's book is sitting next to my bed. That computer program sounds great, I'll pick that up and start playing with that. Its a huge help, so thanks for the tips, I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way, but its a great place to start learning more.

Re: Make it handle
 

Here's a quick lesson we learned, or re-learned last night. We have a local road coarse that runs 'time-attack' on tuesday nights. It's a great place to test, and a heck of a lot of fun. A frustrated group with a pretty nice 32 roadster were unhappy with its handling, and set out to fix it. - Its a good runner, and it handles well. They unhooked the rear swaybar, AND make a big change in brake bias, shutting down the rear brakes as much as possible. Next run they spun the car into some tires, and ground it down the track curb. Scuffed paint, tweeked fender tip, (slight), and a tore up lower A-arm.
Lesson 1: ONE CHANGE AT A TIME
Lesson 2: DOCUMENT YOUR CHANGES - AND THE RESULTS
Lesson 3: FEEL THE CAR OUT AT LOW SPEEDS FIRST
I know not everybody has a test track available, but you can lay out a test run area on a back road. As you run it, note your speed or rpm through different areas, check tire temps at the end of a run. We use a hand help heat gun. check the temps at the center, and each side of the tread (inside/ouside) Compare your temps. Hot in the center - too much air. Cool in the center - low pressure. Lets say temps run 122 outside, 128 center, 136 inside. - too much neg camber. This is a great tuning tool. give it a try.

Re: Make it handle
 

Did you do this backroad testing between the pizza place and the house ? I remember the 46 really likes that road..... and I didnt believe you when you said that car is like a good horse and knows its way home.....:lol:

Re: Make it handle
 

hey, we made it home. that is a good test road. Waterman canyon is good too, but next time you're out here I'll take you out to Adams in the 'Bullit. We'll stop by Wally-mart and get you some depends first.

Re: Make it handle
 

Depends.... ??? why did you finally put carpet in that thing? ;)