Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Thanks for the pics. Looks like it should work.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Awesome build cant wait to see more :metal:

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Spent a week on Vancouver Island, which was good - I needed to figure out the rack placement.

I had to remove the driver's side eye mount, but I will replace that with a pipe clamp sort of arrangement.

http://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/w...31-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Upper arms, before and after:

http://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/w...11-672x504.jpg

Two coats of epoxy primer, then 2K Chassis Black:

http://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/w...4s-672x504.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I forgot to paint the lower arm u-bolts, but I still had some epoxy mixed up, and there was JUST enough left in the chassis black can to finish those today.

Also disassembled the front clip of the truck. Only 1 bolt broke :)

Also got the ultrasonic pulse done on my elbows today, as well as the IMS and the electro shock stuff. My arms have been in pain since I pulled the blown 305 out of the Firefly last year. Physio says I have both Tennis Elbow as well as Golfer's Elbow. I don't do either, but I sure can't swing a hammer anymore. It all started when I built a 50' Allen Block walkway and stairs up to my house 12 years ago.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Poly bushings and lower ball joints installed. Still need to bolt in the new upper ball joints. These are 88-98 ball joints in 73-87 arms, with lower ball joints moved outboard 1/2"

One bushing sleeve cocked and buckled, and after I finished swearing at it, I was able to remove the sleeve, unbuckle it, and re-shape it again and put it back together.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...15-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...16-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

work is looking good. Did I miss something? What are you using 88-98 lower ball joints?

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Good question. It's kind of a hodge-podge snowball of staying under budget and working with what I have and what I want.

1. I will be running a turbocharged LS, planning on 600-650hp to the wheels.

2. I'm not happy with the durability of the 12-bolt in my '77.

3. An 8.8 is narrower than I want, and I want to run the same size wheels front and back.

4. I've seen people on here using Jeep wheels in 18" and 20", but they need to use spacers. I like the look and the idea of those wheels, but I do not want to run spacers. I got a sweet deal on some 18" steelies.

5. I got a sweet deal on a 9" axle which I could narrow, but with the fwd-offset of the Jeep wheels, I don't need to - the wheels would be placed in approximately the same location as stock, which provides good clearance for turning while riding low (I have not decided if I want to air bag it or not).

6. The width of the 9" requires widening the front track quite a bit, which means relocating the ball joint location, or fabricating new upper and lower arms.

7. I got a sweet deal on a set of 2" 88-98 spindles, and since I need to relocate the ball joints anyway, I might as well make them work with the spindles. They are a bigger ball joint as well, and the 73-87 ball joints are not awesome. Plus, the 88-98 spindle seems to have more Steering Axis Inclination (SAI), which means I don't need to alter the upper control arm at all (saves work), and my calculations indicate I only needed to move the lower ball joint 1/2", which is (theoretically) a lot less than if I used 73-87 spindles.

NOTE: a larger SAI might have been employed by GM to reduce the scrub radius (the distance from the steering axis to the wheel centerline, at ground level). Ideally you want to be within 10% of the wheel width for scrub (in my case, 0.75" would be ideal). The 73-87 spindles have a fairly LARGE scrub radius, and my guess is GM tried to reduce it by increasing the SAI. A smarter way is to run more backspacing (FWD-style offset). The downside to a high SAI is you lose significant camber on turns (watch any MacStrut car). You then need a fairly high amount of caster to counteract that dynamic camber loss on turns. Lots of caster is almost always good, but can un-weight the inside rear wheel on a corner, resulting in wheelspin.

8. (I didn't plan this one) The 88-98 spindles mount the tierod below the steering arm (73-87 is above), which improves steering rack placement. Many kits that use the 73-87 spindles run a heim joint for a tie rod, mounted under the steering arm (easier to reduce/remove bumpsteer for sure). I don't want to run a heim joint, I want a proper tierod.

I think that's most of my train of thought.

Make sense?

And honestly, I like "the build" and "creative solutions using OEM parts" and my labour is free.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Spent a number of hours finalizing the Fox-Body steering rack to minimize bumpsteer. I had to take a small chunk out of the crossmember where the passenger side lug goes, but nothing I can't re-shape and repair.

I set everything up at ride height, and checked for any toe change at a full 3" bump and 3" droop, using this fancy device to see the change.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...22-672x378.jpg

I got it down to a fart of toe in on both bump and droop, so I took the inner tie rods off and shaved 1/16" off the end of the rack threads, which now gives me a tick of toe out on bump and droop (dang!), which is more preferable than in (oh, well - yay! then). I guess I can shim it more precisely if it is even a perceptible problem.

Simple apparatus for adjusting rack height shown below. Square tube supporting Redi-Rod which is threaded into muffler clamp saddles (had to use zap-straps (zip-ties) to hold the rack, since I didn't have any 2.5" clamps). By threading the Redi-Rod up or down with a nut, I could position the rack, then test for bump steer.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...21-672x378.jpg

Honestly, fretting over wee bits of bumpsteer is a waste, in my opinion. If anything in the setup changes, nothing will be optimal and you have go in again.

I was, however, pleased to discover that full lock of the steering doesn't run the wheels on the control arms anywhere. Yay!

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Steering rack mount is done!

Passenger side was fairly straight forward, I made a 3/4" peg to hold the original lug of the Fox-body Mustang rack (mounting bolt not shown). The driver's side lug was machined off, the housing rounded, and a "clamp" mount to hold the rack to the crossmember. The mount took two attempts to make it work, and I'm mostly happy with it at the moment.....

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...24-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...0s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Looking good :thumbs:

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Uh oh.

The outer tierod is 11/16"-18 thread, an almost unicorn tap size. I can't make the adapter sleeves until the tap comes in.

Guess I need to work on the house for the rest of the summer....

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Today I shampoo'd the carpets in the house. Tomorrow I will clean the windows.

And..... I also ordered shocks, and an S10 Blazer gas tank with pickup and straps. Should be here next week.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Turned out I was not measuring accurately enough, so I changed my tactic, went "oh crap!" and cut out the entire rack mounting, then tacked it up again with what I thought would work better. Ended up with 1/8" toe out on bump, and quite a bit of toe-in on rebound.

Then I second-guessed myself, and put it all back the way I had it before, and had a bit of toe IN on bump, but less toe IN on rebound. To fix this, I would have to narrow the steering rack, which I don't think I can do because it's a power rack, so I cut it out again and put it back to where I had changed it to, but a slightly different rack height, and now I have zero toe change from ride height to full bump (5" movement), but some fairly aggressive toe-in through rebound. I'm going to leave it and see. It's not a race car.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...2s-672x378.jpg

And, I installed the sway bar that came with the crossmember. Had to clamp a section of tube so I can get the jack out from under it.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...5s-672x378.jpg

Yes, that's sitting on the ground.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...6s-672x378.jpg

And this is why I pie-cut the upper a-arms, the angularity would have been way worse:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...8s-672x378.jpg

Also cut off the shock mounts, as I will need need to relocate or refabricate those.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

As low as it will be going, all layed out:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...1s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...0s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Pulled one of the axle shafts out of the 9", removed the bearing, seal, and plate, pressed the new studs into the new East Coast Gear Supply 5 on 5" axle shafts, installed new bearing et al, and installed the axle. Now have one wheel properly bolted on on the back. We'll see how far I get on the other tonight.

Axle appears to have about 3.50 gears (3.55 if Ford???). Perfect for boost! And saves money, as I only have to buy a limited slip, not that and gears.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Front shock mounts are done. I used the '61 brackets, just relocated. Shocks are OEM squarebody. I set the chassis up at full droop, and positioned the bracket with the fully extended shock 1" away from the upper a-arm shaft threads. My thinking is this would make shock replacement easier, and in fact, there is still about 1" shock travel left at full bump.

I also picked up some Energy Suspension bumpstops (ES 9.9101 2.125" tall) for the front, which will set the chassis a tick over 1" off the ground fully dropped (you can see one just sitting in a hole on the far frame rail while I fit the shocks).

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...5s-672x378.jpg

These will be fully welded later.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Rear shock mounts kicked my butt. Repeatedly.

I'm not really sure why, but Oh My Gosh.

I finally got something figured out. I like the double-shear factory mount, which I had cut off and tentatively moved forward about 5". But because I want it to ride low, and I want the axle to bottom before the shock does, and because I want the shock to stay reasonably upright, and because I notched the frame 4", the mount went forward AND up.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...6s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...7s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...9s-672x378.jpg

Yes, these shocks are leaning back, but this is how the factory did it. In 63+ GM put the shocks ahead of the axle, angled inward at the top, and angled forward. There are many people who alter the 63+ bracketry to get more travel and less angle out of the shock mounts, as well companies that will sell you the same thing.No Limit Engineering sells brackets that essentially duplicate the 60-62 mount, and everyone who has installed the kit has loved the improved handling, so, I'll give keeping it a try.

I was all giggly that I was using shorter 73-87 4wd front shocks for rear shocks. Turns out they are the same as the 63-72 rear shocks anyway. Figures.

Once I had the rear shock mounts done, I started second-guessing myself. I have ride height set with the front crossmember 5" off the ground, and the frame at the back of the cab 6" off the ground. This puts the axle (with 2" blocks) about half an inch into where the frame used to be. This is not where my 5" drop springs are going to put the axle, so honestly, my springs will be too tall. Instead of cutting it all out again (there were four or five versions of shock mounts, each one kicking my bruised buttox in the same place), I'm going to leave it for a bit. Once I have the body back on and can see how it sits with actual springs in it, I'll decide if I leave it, run 6" drop springs, or do a 3" block. If I change the spring, the shock mount stays. If I do blocks, the shock mount has to come down.

Front end Friday:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...1s-672x378.jpg

I picked up another set of 18" Grand Cherokee wheels, this time for $50. Good for winters.

I also placed the S10 Blazer tank on the back of the frame, and it looks like it will work great, and I can still run a hidden hitch!

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Test fit of the cab on the "finished" chassis. This is ride height (bottom of crossmember 5" off the ground), and about as low as I can go and still steer.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...5s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...3s-672x378.jpg

The tire hits the fender, but that fender is actually pushed in, so it might just clear once I fix the fender.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...6s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...4s-672x378.jpg

And, assuming I go air ride, this is sitting on the bumpstops (un-trimmed ES9.9101). Control arms are about 1" off the ground.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...9s-672x378.jpg

I'm very pleased with how the control arm modifications, spindle adaptations, and Jeep wheels all worked out. Modern rims, modern geometry, good clearance, low ride height, yeah!

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Beautiful, keep it coming...

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I forgot to take a pic with the back all down too:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...0s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Looks great man! Keep up the great work :metal:

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

According to this document (page 60), we're sitting at 8.2" lower, referencing the roof measurement.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Trial fit the engine and trans into the frame. Yes, I will have to shorten the oil pan about 1.5", or spend $200+ for a F-Body pan, assuming I can't find one at the wreckers.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...1s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Working on shortening the LS truck oil pan 2".

Baked all the oil off in the oven for seven hours. Cooked it outside because I don't fully trust my electrically-molested oven inside the shop.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...65-672x378.jpg

Pieced together the bottom of the pan using 3/16" Aluminum plate. I'd already be finished, but I ran out of Argon. The pan is not as short as the F-Body LS pan, but I lengthened it to match. No idea what the capacity is now. The bottom matches the bottom of the 4L80E pan.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...14-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Love the build, finally someone working on a '61 that I can use to copy ideas from. Re-purposing newer OEM parts on projects is my favorite way to build. I have a long bed fleetside C20 that will eventually get a 6.0 LS, NV4500 5 speed, and all of the '87 C20 suspension that I have sitting in garage.

Things like can the x-frame be shortened, and is there room to fit a gas tank in the rear have not been done on a 61 from the research I have done. So I will hold tight and see how yours turn out. I want to do a hidden hitch behind the license plate and hide the fuel filler behind the left taillight. Mine will be used more as a daily, fun to drive truck that I can potentially use to pull my car trailer. I am only going to dropping it a couple inches front and rear and plan on keeping it a long bed for now.

But thanks for updating your build thread, can't wait to see more updates.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Pan welded up. It was not fun aluminum to weld. I also sharpened a LOT of tungsten. Drain bung on bottom front, turbo drain bung left rear, oil level sensor right rear.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...65-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...17-672x378.jpg

One wee leak at the back which I fixed. This is 6.5L of solvent in the pan; good capacity.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Yeah cast aluminum that has been subject to oil and such is no fun to weld. Baking it like you did is about the best you can do to try and get the oil out of the pores. Looks like a good job welding.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Motor, trans, and cab, at ride height. Oil pan flush with bottom of frame.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...6s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...5s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I shoved the motor around until it was centered in the frame rails, and just far enough away from the firewall that I probably could get the heads off the head studs without dropping the motor or pulling the cab. You know: serviceability.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...2s-672x378.jpg

Finally got motor mounts tacked together. I initially tried to mimic the 63+ mount in tube, but attaching to the new (higher) upper control arm mounts to give it rigidity. Worked fine on the passenger side, but not the driver's side because of the steering - nothing seemed to work well.

Then I thought if I ever wanted to ditch the turbo and run headers, that tube would be in the way, so.....

Simple "ears" off the crossmember, basic plate on the motor, the tubing will be gusseted.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...7s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...8s-672x378.jpg

Driver's side got the ears further down to clear the steering (this is not the u-joint I'm using, I'm just gauging space). Not symmetrical (boo), but it will work (yay). Though I will very likely change the tube and make it centered in the mount plate (double yay).

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...0s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...1s-672x378.jpg

Not a lot of clearance between the motor and the rack:

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...3s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

That's better. Vertical is more eye-pleasing. I'll gusset the back.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...02-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Looks killer!

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I was not happy with those motor mounts. I am much happier now.

Driver's side welded and installed, passenger side ready to be tacked.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...6s-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...5s-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I like the looks of the new mounts. Would adding additional bolts from the mount to the frame add in some more rigidity, or would that be a little too much? Seems pretty easy to do if desired

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I will probably add a couple bolts in the top. You're right though - easy to add later (which is why I haven't done it yet). There are no factory bolt holes in the top of the frame.

Trans mount is 1.5" tube, with 3/16" flanges, 3/8" bolts. Driveline is about 3° down, and none of the driveline is below the frame. I will -probably- have to modify the top of the frame "X" (and cab floor?) for driveshaft clearance.

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...DR-672x378.jpg

https://www.gwellwood.com/wordpress/...65-672x378.jpg

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

I like the engine mount design a lot more than the old vertical one, might have to use this idea on my '61 in the future. Is the tube currently welded to the subframe, or are you going to use bolts so it is removable? Looks like if it is welded you can't remove the subframe.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

There is a 1/2" bolt coming up through an existing hole in the crossmember (had to enlarge the hole slightly), threaded into a welded nut and flange in the bottom of the tube.

Having suffered through working on some of my previous modified vehicles, I have a keener eye for "serviceability" now. (grin)

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

Makes sense! I work in the auto industry and even we forget about serviceability sometimes until it is too late. Figured you didn't weld it but I was curious.

I also like your tranny mount. Did you delete the bell housing mounts and crossmember then? I have an NV4500 for my '61 that will need a new crossmember when I have time for the swap.

Re: SkinnyG's '61 Apache
 

The SM420 trans mount was cut out completely.

I saw this design on somebody's build page and I liked the look.

One of the things I didn't like about my motor mount design was that if I chose to lose my turbo and go headers, headers won't fit. But I'm willing to bet that once I have the turbo up and running, I won't ever lose it and go back to headers.

Of course, I could make my own headers.....