Re: Make it handle
 

So how does the anti-squat number affect acceleration?

Re: Make it handle
 

Think about it like this. It takes some amount of force to move anything. - - -thinking - - - -IFthe tire will hold traction, the best aceleration would be with no squat. no force being used to compress the suspension, and all available force used to move the truck forward. Lots of squat will add traction, but slows chassis reaction time, because some of the force (hp&torque) is being used by the suspension. It's all a balancing act. Get enough traction to launch, but not waist time compressing the suspension more than you need.

Re: Make it handle
 

I get it. At first I was thinking you want all the force at the wheels because that's what's going to get you going down the road, but I completely for got that would be the case only IF the tire can hold traction. But the more I think about it, maybe you don't care if it can hold traction....:burnout:

So in your experience what kind of driving are the anti-squat & -dive numbers good for and how does it feel in the seat?

Re: Make it handle
 

HAHAHAHA, Let me tell you guys a bit about myself. I have a varied racing background. My dad and I ran a car at Bonneville and El-Mirage in the late 70's & early 80's. For a few years i worked on the Nissan 'P' car team, a great experience. I drag raced a bracket 1 nova, and have run Dwarf cars and an Imca modified. So, its in the blood. When I drive my dually around town, or pulling a trailer, I think even some old people are passing me. What can I say, I baby my equipment. BUT when it comes to fun driving, in a truck, mustang, the '46, or on the bike, I would say that my driving style is "spirited". Brakes and suspension allow you to get all the power out and play with it. With a bit of chassis tuning, you can get your truck to pass corvettes, on the outside! The feel of a balanced chassis is foreign to most people, But how cool would it be to have your truck feel like a 370Z or an Audi R8 (must save all pennies for an R8):chevy: I like to know that it will turn into a corner, and it will come out under power, it's pretty cool.:metal:

Re: Make it handle
 

That pretty much describes what I want out of my truck. The big question is how do I get there, fix the stock chassis or just flat out replace it? If I knew that every part I purchased was going to be the perfect part I'd probably just mod the 65 chassis but if my previous projects are any indication a guy ends up buying quite a few parts that don't seem to end up on the finished product because something better is discovered at a later date. This time I'd really like to just do it once. On that note any progress on the control arm testing?

M5

Re: Make it handle
 

thats where mines headed also....tho it won't be completed anytime soon.
some of us just prefer trucks over cars... and want our "street truck" to handle like a performance car.

My current front end mods are only temporary...I plan on adding a coil over IFS with rack and pinion (but not a MustangII design) to help me get there. I also wonder if I should just save up for the complete chassis that also replaces the trailing arm setup with a 4 link or something else.

Re: Make it handle
 

with the castor at the 7-9* how much more force is put on the ball joints.
in turns and over bumps (pot holes)

Re: Make it handle
 

I've been eyeballing this thread for a while and have some questions too - in regard to bracing a stock frame, I've heard that a good rollcage does wonders for stiffening a frame. That being said is it money/time better spent on a rollcage or trying to figure out how/where to brace and triangulate a stock frame? I have no plans on boxing my frame (unless absolutely necessary), but I would like to add some bracing and/or a good rollcage to stiffen it up a bit. I'm building towards a 'Pro Touring' truck since I really like that look and functionality of that genre and love trucks. Of course like everyone else here I want to surprise the unsuspecting 'sports' car every now and then, but I don't want a glaring 'racecar' with a bed either. I have tried to choose my parts carefully and already have CPP tubular upper and lower A-arms, 4 wheel disc brakes, a quick ratio steering box, front and rear sway bars and plans to fab up some trailing arms out of 2x3 .120 or 3/16" wall tubing. Not to mention the 600hp 468" BBC and TKO 5spd transmission, and the 335/30/18 rear tires on 18x12 wheels. I've got plenty of tools and a nice welder, I just need some direction on making this pile of parts work together!

Re: Make it handle
 

i just read this all and am eager to see what control arms are good and what kind of figures you come up with ! id like to know how this front suspension fares and how much work ill need to do to get it up to snuff

Re: Make it handle
 

Good Day gents. This may be my last post till after SEMA and the Optima Invitational. So, I'll try to make it a good one. When you start a project, the first thing you need is a REALISTIC budget. how much are you planning on spending all together. The chassis/suspension/brakes will use up 20% or so of the budget. So, a 50k build gives you about 10k for chassis parts/labor. With this in mindI think there is a range, around 9k, where you really need to look at a new chassis. If your budget plan is less than this, work on the stock chassis. But if it is higher than that, it's time to look at a new chassis. Your stock chassis can be made to drive very well, but at some point you are waisting time and money trying to push it too far. So, set up a plan, and stick to it.:sumo:
If you have a trailing arm truck, don't give up on it. They work great, they just need a bit of a tune up. Chevy built them to be trucks, and you want a cup-car, so a bit of work should be expected.;)
As to my A-Arm testing, I probably would be done till after SEMA. Caster angles of 7-9deg don't put any additional load on the ball joints. The first problem created is bumpsteer. When we tip the spindle back to get more caster, the steering arm raises, in relation to the rest of the suspension. To cure this you can, A)- Use an adjustableouter tierod end, such as a Baer-Tracker. B)- Use a custom center link to raise the inner pivit points, like in the new Hotchkis kit. Or, a combination of both. The testing i have done so far has shown me a bunch of bumpsteer with the stock parts anyway, so a fix is needed. by the way, ALL CARS BUMPSTEER some, as soon as the wheel turns, its a new ball game. Be ware of those who say they have NO bumpsteer, for they may not know what it is.
Roll cages. if you can take the look, do it. Here 's the chassis lesson for today. ---- 3D is better than 2D --- got it? Take a new cardboard box, and lay it out folded flat. Grab two oposing corners and twist. Easy isn't it? Now, open the box and tape it together. Try twisting it now. Harder? it has the same amount of cardboard.:smoke: 3D is better. And if you are laying out your own cage, think triangles.
Have a great week guys, and wish us luck at the Optima Invitational.:metal:

Re: Make it handle
 

Update. Last night we went track testing at our local track. I ran a personal best 48.06 (prev best 48.40). Baer brakes and a change in rear shock compression (softer) definately help. I think we're ready for the Optima OUSCI. i'll try to get some good picts and vid at SEMA and Optima.

Re: Make it handle
 

If a person were to look into building a custom chassis, what benefits would ther be in switching to an IRS setup? Is IRS buildable from scratch or would one need to salvage some Corvette pieces?

I'm only asking in case someone else is interested. I know I would never be able to do an IRS on my budget.

Re: Make it handle
 

Well, I once built an IRS from scratch, and can say that I don't recomend it. That route will cost you plenty in time, money and heartache. But, an IRS may be more reasonable to do than you think. We do a bunch of them here using the Crown Vic - TownCar IRS unit. OK, don't gasp too hard. I know it's a Ford unit, but so is a 9", don't hate on it too much. The Crown Vic IRS unbolts from the doner car in a cradle with four big bolts and drops out. Salvage yard price is around $400 in So Cal. These have an 8.8" gear set with ltd. slip, disk brakes, and are easily converted to air ride. Swapping one in is pretty easy, you just trim the stock cradle to fit into your rails, set the pinion angle, and true up the CL then weld in the cradle. From there it's a bolt in. Check one out on your next bone-yard excursion.

Re: Make it handle
 

I just saw an episode of Trucks where they put an IRS from a Mustang Cobra into a ford ranger - they said they got it for cheap and it sure didn't look all that difficult to install. I'm not convinced that its the best way to go. Rob - Good Luck at the Optima invitational, and maybe soon I will have some pictures of some chassis stiffening that I'm working on for you to critique so others can learn from it - Good or Bad.

Re: Make it handle
 

Here's a quick lesson. BEFORE you go to the dyno shop, check to make sure that the throttle blade goes to WOT when you push the pedal to the floor. To be honest, we never did. First full pull was 331 rr whl hp. WHAT? then, we adjusted the cable/linkage to get full throttle (I felt like a 6 yr old that spilled the milk). Next pull, 428 hp. After a bit of tuning, 443 hp, 468 ft./lb. Crap, i've been running all year on about 5/8 throttle. I will say, it's a lot faster now. So, check the simple things. Have a great weekend.

Re: Make it handle
 

Back from SEMA on sunday, we loaded in the truck. Saw the new demo truck for AccuAir, - all I can say is WOW

Re: Make it handle
 

So essentially you have been kicking butt on a detuned motor. I'm thinking your competitors probably don't want to know that.

Time to upgrade the brakes again...;)

Re: Make it handle
 

Well, as much as I'm ashamed to admit the mistake, I do see the humor in it. :)

Re: Make it handle
 

Back from SEMA and the Optima Invitational. We had a blast. The truck ran great. Rob Phillips ran his 69 C-10 with all new Hotchkis gear, and it handles great. The quality of cars was amazing, and the raw horsepower on hand was off the hook. An 1800 hp gen-3 camaro from Europe, a 973hp twin turbo vette, an 1150 hp shelby mustang. If you didn't cross the 650 hp line, your out of the running. Wewatched in dis-belief as the owner thashed on his $1million 59 Mercedes 190, a truelly gorgeous car. I'll get picts, stats and video up soon.

Re: Make it handle
 

I saw where he went to the black 19's rather than the 20's. The truck looked better with the silver wheels, but I guess the black look is the rage.

So how did you do over all?

Re: Make it handle
 

he could of done that just for tire availability as he was running his truck..

Re: Make it handle
 

The wheel choice could have been for style, or tires, Optima specs 200 tw, so the sticky Kumho's are out. We didn't see the final #s, but we finished 20th in the autocross, and 27th on the roadcoarse. Don't know about the speedstop challenge, or the performance/design judging. Friday nights "road rally" was a lot of fun, we made it to parhump with only 8 minutes to spare. - Hwy 160 to Parhump is pretty smooth, and allowed us to make up some time with extended triple digit speeds. Thanks to radar detection! All in all a great event.

Re: Make it handle
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from robnolimit:
"Well, I once built an IRS from scratch, and can say that I don't recomend it. That route will cost you plenty in time, money and heartache. But, an IRS may be more reasonable to do than you think. We do a bunch of them here using the Crown Vic - TownCar IRS unit. OK, don't gasp too hard. I know it's a Ford unit, but so is a 9", don't hate on it too much. The Crown Vic IRS unbolts from the doner car in a cradle with four big bolts and drops out. Salvage yard price is around $400 in So Cal. These have an 8.8" gear set with ltd. slip, disk brakes, and are easily converted to air ride. Swapping one in is pretty easy, you just trim the stock cradle to fit into your rails, set the pinion angle, and true up the CL then weld in the cradle. From there it's a bolt in. Check one out on your next bone-yard excursion."



Is there a certain year or model of Crown Vic/Town car with the IRS? I looked at one today and it looked like it had a solid axle with a triangulated 4 link. Or is that considered IRS? A friend said he thought it is the Mark VIII that has IRS.

Re: Make it handle
 

are the crown vics just as strong as the cobra units?

Re: Make it handle
 

Was that the White 190 that was in the BASF booth with AMG drivetrain?.....what a totally fricken cool car.

Re: Make it handle
 

YES, I guess it's a 61. Amazing car, and the owner flogged the snot out of it. Can't stop thinking about that car. It was built by Randy Clark, Hot Rods and Custom Stuff, in Escondido, Ca. This is the new benchmark for all classic car builders.

Re: Make it handle
 

You guys have been holding out! No one said that they stuff an AMG biturbo V12 in this thing! You're right about the benchmark being set. Check it out for yourselves...

http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/ph...61-190-sl.html

Re: Make it handle
 

I saw several pics of the car in event coverage, but had no idea. I thought it looked good lowered, but had no indication it was a beast in sheeps clothing.

Re: Make it handle
 

It's very cool. I'm diggin' the lg diameter OE look for the rolling stock.

Re: Make it handle
 

I agree. That just completes the look and theme.

Re: Make it handle
 

Well we're getting back to normal. For the IRS questions, '98 - 08 Crown Vics, Mk IV, had IRS, but not in all cars. some had solid axle /multi link. The center carrier is the same 8.8 as the cobra, but the lower arms are wider, so I prefer the Crown Vic. On the mercedes, the center cap of the wheel is a spinner, and it is wieghted on the bottom, so when the car drives past, the emblem stays still. Too cool. pleasonton Good-Guys this weekend is the last auto-x of the season for us. Looks like hotchkis is sending out the whole stable of trucks to try and beat us. Should be a fun weekend. Rob Phillips had the new Hotchkis TVS kit on his truck at the Optima Challenge, and it was working great, Horsepower played a big part in the track layout, and this favored his c-10. He beat me at the autocross by .02 sec, and a full 2 sec faster on the road coarse. So, if you plan to go to a big coarse don't forget the horsepower.

Re: Make it handle
 

^^^Thanks:metal:

Re: Make it handle
 

Good morning boys and girls. We just got home from the Pleasonton Goodguys, and another win in the autocross. Strong competition with the top 4 trucks. Our 55 was victorious with a 32.208 fast lap. Rob Phillips 69 C-10 ran out a 32.886 for 2nd, and a great running 69 F100 (fatman equipped) took third with a 33.321. Mike Hickmans 70 C-10 was plauged with ignition problems, and ran a 33.465 for fourth. Both of the C-10's are running the new Hotchkis TVS kits, and sticky rubber, and they are great handling trucks. The truck class is going to be very tough next yr. Rumors of LS power for Phillips and Hickman, and I'm guessing that Jon will be a west coast force now that he is with Scotts. It looks like we're setting out to build a competitive C-10 to keep up with the GM crowd. I will be starting a build thread soon, and post 'most' of the info :)

Re: Make it handle
 

that benz was actually a 04 with skins on it beautiful car never the less I looked at it for ever then noticed some thing was odd it was wider than I remember beautiful benz!!!! talked to them and picked there brain for a bit

Re: Make it handle
 

I couldn't figure out how to embedd the vid, but I saw this and thought it'd be nice to show in this thread. Thanks for all the great advice on here rob.

http://www.hotchkis.net/6772_c10_fro...7_VAz_sPeNgHKQ

Re: Make it handle
 

thanks, that was a fun day. Truckin mag did a big story on it. A failing master cyl kept me out of the top spot, which is pretty embarrasing for a 'brake guy' to admit. The cool thing is that we learned alot about trucks, and how to make them better.

Re: Make it handle
 

When I started to build my truck a few years ago, i tried to build it to handle the best that I possible could on what knowledge I could find from anyone and everyone, next year I will join the local SCCA up here. I built most of all of my own suspension for her, the front suspension, I am somewhat happy with, but I need to change it, and I have to change out my shocks....... I slapped her together to put a few thousand miles on her first and then start the changes, this Is what i strive for, G's!!!!!! but up here in winter wondderland, i can only do so much.

please keep on with this, itrigues me immensely!!!

Re: Make it handle
 

How awesome would a purpose built 2wd Blazer be? Solid body, shorter wheel base (if I recall right), less sheet metal, so maybe less weight...

Re: Make it handle
 

Don't think that concept hasn't crossed the radar here. By the way, if your in the 47-59 years, we are having a sale on rear suspensions this month, check the 47-59 forum. Today is the 1rst ever No Limit Big ten Challenge. 10 manufacturers, 10 cars, all out competition.

Re: Make it handle
 

Hey Rob, totally off topic, but where did you get the headlights on your Ffffffffff... Hold on, let me try again, Ffffooorr-blah. Dang, can't say it. Your silver truck that is in every magazine I see.

I kinda like the LED ring around them!

Also, thanks for the great info you are putting in this thread. It almost has me motivated to go out and work on my truck... :smoke: