Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Here's the background story on my truck and me, so you can have the context for a couple questions.
I told a friend I wanted an old truck to work on and bring back to life. He had a friend that wanted his 69 CST/10 hauled off. After having a look at it with another friend, we decided it looked like very little had been done to it, and it was just parked outside since 1985. It looks like the truck is mostly original, and the exhaust was re-done with glass packs and somebody lost the carburetor spacer. I am not an experienced auto mechanic, but I know about mechanical and electrical things, and I'm pretty good at removing and replacing parts such as starters, alternators, fuel pumps, etc. I am weak at diagnostics. My friend has worked on old cars and trucks many times and he gets the engines rebuilt by a machine shop he knows about in Edgewood, TX. So I got his help and we pulled the engine and sent it there. Meanwhile I ordered and installed a new gas tank, and had the radiator cleaned and tested, fixed up the brakes and wheels/tires. We sent it to the machine shop with an electronic distrubutor my friend had from a later model truck. The engine came back and was beautiful and we put it back in, then took it back to the machine shop for an exhaust system and for help figuring out how some of the brackets, wires, and hoses go. The mechanic at the machine shop tinkered with the carburetor numerous times and seemed to have great confidence that it would work if he took it apart and worked on it enough times. He kept the truck for a few weeks and drove it back and forth to his house, and tinkered with the carburetor a few times, before giving me the truck back. I have a lot of work to do on it to make it inspection ready, such as lights, horns, switches, and all sorts of stuff. Meanwhile I make time to go out and start it every day and run it for a while. It is getting harder and harder to start, and it stalls. I can't start it in the morning. It only starts in the late morning or afternoon. When it runs, it runs quite well. The mechanic, friends, and auto parts store guys recommended putting inline fuel filters in the fuel line in several spots, to make sure the fuel going into the carburetor is very clean. When at the parts store they asked what kind I wanted and they told me they had clear ones and metal ones. I told them the clear ones sounded good and everybody thought that is a great choice, "that's the kind I use", and all sorts of positive feedback. The mechanic installed them when he was doing the finishing touches on the truck. In the past few days I found that was a pretty bad choice, because just the tension from the weight of the fuel hose and the way the fuel hose bends after coming off a spool where it has been stored for months is enough to cause the ends of the fuel filter to buckle and bend and break loose the inside filter element. The filters failed within a couple weeks. To top it off, on closer examination I found the mechanic used hose clearly marked "do not use for fuel." I went to the auto parts store today and got some fuel line hose and a metal fuel filter (WIX 33033), replaced the hoses and put the filter on the last leg of the fuel's journey, at the carburetor. I did this re-work of the fuel lines today hoping to improve the situation. The fuel hose is less flexible than the "do not use for fuel" hose, so now I have kinking happening between the metal fuel line coming from the cab and the fuel pump, so I'm now worried about whether that could cause some stalling. Early on in the project I asked my friend who helped me pull and re-install the engine what I should expect regarding the carburetor, and he said I could use the carburetor I had "if it took a rebuild kit, because some carburetors rebuild OK, and some just don't." After talking to the mechanic at the machine shop, who put a carburetor kit in it, and took it apart and put it back together several times, I get the feeling he never under any circumstances would declare a carburetor unworkable and he never throws anything out and starts fresh. I asked him to tell me if it was time to get a new carburetor, and he said no, that mine just needed some more work. So, now I have this truck home and it is many miles from the machine shop mechanic and I have nobody to bail me out of a situation where the engine is finicky and I don't know what to do. My question is, is there a point at which time of death probably should have been called on my carburetor? How likely are fuel line problems to be most of my problem? I'm feeling in over my head a little here. My goal is to use the truck as a daily driver, and I don't need any super horsepower or fancy upgrades, or to make a hot rod out of it. Not sure what I should do next. I continue working on the wiring for lights and other inspection items. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Personally, I would forget any "mechanic" that used the wrong hose for a fuel line. Also I would forget any mechanic that couldn't easily rebuild a Quadrajet, the first time (I hope he isn't charging you for all his fiddling around).
You didn't say what engine and carb you do have. A quadrajet has a little fuel filter just inside that you need to check. Does the choke work on the carb? That kinking in the hose needs to be sorted out. Sounds like the metal fuel line is bent and needs to be unbent. Please fill in the blanks so that someone can give better advice. -WL |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
First I'd get rid of the fuel hoses and make some tubing fuel lines. Less risk of a fire when the rubber hoses start leaking.
Then I'd call Holley or edlebrock and talk to their tech line to find out which carburator would be best for the engine specs. Then buy it new and install it. I'd then change the plugs, wires and check distributor and verify/adjust the timing to make sure it's all good. That might solve some of your issues. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Go to your local cruise spot were many other guys have already been where you are , talk to some of the guys and you may find them very helpful to someone in your position . They may help get it right or will at least recommend who to take it to . Don't hand over the truck and keys to just anyone or you may never see it again .
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Hook up with the guys in the c 10 club in dallas,
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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The metal fuel lines are all intact and in good shape and don't appear to be bent. Hose is only used to attach the metal fuel line that comes from the tank to connect to the metal fuel line that goes to the engine compartment, and at the frame under the A/C compressor it is shaped like a U so it points back toward the fuel pump. Short hose goes to the fuel pump. A metal tube goes from the fuel pump to within a few inches of the carburetor, and then a short hose to the carburetor through the in-line filter I was talking about. The kink I am concerned about the most is because the fuel pump nozzle points straight forward, and the metal fuel line from the cab points straight back after the U-bend, but they are not in line with each other. The fuel pump is slightly to the left from the driver's seat. It does not look bad. But there is some kink. I will replace that hose with a different length, bend, or re-route to remove the kink. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
That looks to be a Quadra jet. It should say on the side what it is. I've used them on a lot of my muscle cars and trucks. They are not hard to work on. My main issues with them is when I gave it gas, there would be a slight hesitation which always indicated a bad accelerator pump. Easy fix. Another problem with the choke was the vacuum choke pull-off. Suck through to make sure the diaphragm doesn't have a hole in it. Are you running a mechanical or electric fuel pump? You mentioned your fuel pump was just off the side of your drivers seat. All older Chevy v8's have the mechanical fuel pump on the passenger side towards the front of the engine. If that is where your fuel pump is, you can purchase a hard line custom bent just like the factory put on them. I used the brass filters that usually came in the carb with never any problems. I would use carb cleaner and reinstall it with no issues. They also make a paper filter for them. If you would want to use a inline filter, mount it before the fuel pump. This would also protect your fuel pump. I also see a vacuum hose about 2 or 3 inch's long with a hose clamp on the end on the front. You can buy the little rubber nubs to plug the vacuum ports you aren't using. They are really cheap and look more professional. You want all your fuel lines and hoses to flow very easily. Any sharp bends or kinks is going to hurt the performance of the engine. If your mechanic bought the proper rebuild kit, that engine should run like new. The biggest problem when people rebuilding these carbs, they get intimidated by all the parts and gaskets in the kit. They cut corners and don't use the proper pieces. Also I've seen when they clean them, they pay more attention to the outside of the carb instead of the inside. The inside is what matters most. Also make sure the float is set right or the carb will not function properly. If your not really sure you want to use the Quad and you are going to buy a new carb, go with a Quickfuel. GREAT carb right out of the box. Easy to work on. I hope I shed some light for you.
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Lots of good info. I don't understand all of it, but I'm going to study and learn. |
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Post a better picture of the front driver side corner of your carb. It looks like something funky is up with your accelerator pump rod. (Looks like a wire over it)? The accelerator pump shoots fuel into the carb when you pump the gas pedal. That vacuum line with the hose clamp I assume is for distributor vacuum, I would just get that as one continuous piece of tube if that clamp is securing a union.
As earlier posts have said make sure fuel filter at front of carb is clear. Make sure you have correct wrenches when opening so it doesn't strip the fitting. You can try putting a couple ounces of fuel directly into carb on your next cold start and see how it responds. Put a list together of what you need to do and check off as you go. Step away from truck for awhile if you get frustrated or work on another part of the truck and come back later to issues that were getting you frustrated. Looks like you just need to tidy some stuff up and you should be good. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
I took a second look and I think the lever is over your accelerator pump fully. So you should be ok there. Was this carb rebuilt? Because looking at the accelerator pump portion coming out of the carb looks old. Typically a rebuilder would replace that pump.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Why is your fuel filter / line what looks to 10-12 inches above the carb , give us a better picture of the fuel pump to carb on the right and left (drivers side ) of the carb and linkage .you'll find that many guys in here can help with your problem but need good pictures and more than 1-2 .
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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I will try pouring a couple ounces of fuel in on next cold start, but I think I will see what I can do about that kink in the fuel hose first. For now, more pictures, starting with the hose between the metal fuel line from cab to the fuel pump. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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More picture, including the non-standard for 1969 distributor I was talking about.
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Most Q-Jets have a big port on the back at the base for power brakes. Most Q-Jets have two ports on the front, they are: - The one ABOVE the baseplate is ported vacuum advance for the distributor - The one BELOW the baseplate is manifold vacuum (heat stove valve, etc) Anything on the carb below the throttle plates, or connected to the actual intake manifold (like a brake pipe fitting) are manifold vacuum. Only that ported one above the throttle blades, for the distributor, is in any way "special". That's about it. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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One thing I notice about the fuel supply setup (and I may be wrong in thinking it is not optimal) but that loop of fuel supply hose is higher than the height of your carburetor and fuel bowl - wouldn't that encourage the fuel level to fall back inside the hose each time you shut off the motor and maybe create a vapor lock?
Autozone sells the vacuum caps in assorted sizes (photo attached) One unrelated thing I notice from your photos is running the single accelerator return spring risks it suddenly breaking and the accelerator sticking open unexpectedly.. the double springs are just a few bucks - usually on the wall at the big box stores in the "Help" section.. Also maybe someone mentioned this already but that vacuum canister looks suspect - their operation depends on a rubber diaphragm inside and they do get pretty baked by engine heat over the years - it would at least be worth checking if you have a vacuum pump like a Mityvac or similar. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Before you start the truck (engine cold) take a look at the carburetor. Move the accelerator linkage all the way back and the choke plate should snap shut. The choke plate is the plate on top of the carburetor at the front. It looks like it's open on all of your pictures. If it is, that would be why you're having a hard time starting the truck. Rather than pouring raw gas in it, give it a shot of starting fluid or even carburetor cleaner and then try to start it immediately (the aerosols evaporate more quickly than gas, so less chance of washing oil off cylinder walls with repeated attempts). I'll bet it fires right up; that indicates your choke is not closing and it needs to be adjusted.
The non-standard distributor you have is a factory GM HEI unit. It's a really good upgrade. Just make sure the timing is set correctly (I like 10-12 degrees initial timing). |
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Hello and welcome.
Don't try and fix to many things at once just take your time and enjoy your self it's a long journey that were all on. As stated above that distributer is a good one but that yellow feed wire looks to be the wrong gauge if it is it will be trouble after it starts to break down. I think it should be at least a 12 gauge and it looks like it's 14 and might be a 16. I run a 10 on my dist. Also as above the spring is one of those little things that cause big problems. Quadrajet carbs are very good if taken care of. There's lots of info on the computer about them. I bought a book by Cliff Ruggles that explains it very well. I'm not sure about the 69 but my 72 has a strait rod coming from the choke heater. It looks like yours has a large bend in it. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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Thank you all for your encouraging words and advice, I appreciate every word of it. I will take care of that return spring. I'm sure the one that is on there was a scrap from the garage floor. Are we talking about buying off the shelf 2 general purpose springs, or is it sold as an accelerator return spring? Universal one or buy one specifically for the C-10 or Quadrajet?
The yellow distributor wire is the stock wiring harness 20 gauge wire, I don't see any modifications of the wiring in that area. The wiring was rat-eaten in just a couple of places, involving the headlights and front turn signal, and human-eaten in the area of tail lights where somebody added a trailer connector. For today's project, I was going to get rid of the inline filter, so I don't have that loop, and just get the filter for the built-in housing that is a part of the carb. I took the nut off and this picture shows what I found. There are 2 sets of threads, and the larger outer thread in the filter location is not used on my carb. The fitting I have screws into the inner set of threads and it has a smooth surface instead of the outer threads. Is this an adapter kit somebody put on there because they were having trouble with the built-in housing leaking or having stripped threads or something? Now I know why the filter nut felt "squishy" when I turned it with the wrench. It is because there is a big rubber washer in there. One thing about this adapter is it is hard as hell to get 3/8" fuel hose onto it over the barbs. I think the barb is for a larger hose, but 3/8" hose fits well on the pipe coming up from the fuel pump. Is anybody amused yet? |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
The very first thing you need to do is burn the phone number of the mechanic. There is no way he rebuilt anything on this carb. First indication is none of the rust is disturb on any of the screws or bolts from wrenches or screw drivers. If he cleaned anything, there will be no stains from faulty gaskets. There are a lot of good people for good advice here that will help you get through this. It also looks in the picture that you started with one of those steel fuel lines I mentioned. When you cut the line, did you use a tube cutter or wire cutters? I've seen where some bend the line back and forth til it broke away. That kink in the hose is a problem.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
From the looks of the picture, someone did strip the threads out in the filter housing. Did someone jam a nut of some sort in there. I never seen this. The hose fitting is for an air hose like for a air compressor. The piece you are holding is not for any Quad. The nut that holds the filter in place is much larger. I wish I had one here to post. I will look for one. This setup is not safe for you to run. I see a fire.
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And I'm not amused at your problems, but I definitely wouldn't ever use that mechanic again. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Where in the DFW area are you located?
What I can see from the pictures is a major fire hazard. You need to get the correct hard line from fuel pump to carburetor inlet, http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cb/full.aspx?Page=53 and install a fuel filter in the carb inlet like it is supposed to have. Most importantly, You need to find someone who actually knows how to correctly rebuild a Quadrajet. Your other option is to replace it with a new carburetor like a Holley or Edlebrock 1406 with electric choke. If you go this route, You will also need an adapter to run a square bore carburetor on your Quadrjet spread bore manifold. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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Here is the fuel journey: What I have is the fuel line is metal coming from the fuel sender on the fuel tank. It goes down through a hole in the cab floor and makes a 90 degree turn toward the passenger side and ends. Then a few inches of fuel hose connects it to a metal tube the runs up the frame to the engine compartment where it has a U-bend to point toward the fuel pump. Then there is a few inches of fuel hose to connect to the fuel pump. There is a metal tube coming out of the fuel pump that goes up towards the carb, and ends a few inches from the carb. I did not cut that off, it is the way it was from years gone by. Then the final piece of hose connects the fuel pump metal line to the barb on the "stripped thread" adapter. If I use that stripped thread adapter, I could probably use that inline filter at any place where I have a section of hose. The adapter is a flare fitting adapter that appears to be made specifically to fit in the carb. It then has what appears to be standard threads and that air hose barb. I suppose I may be able to just put a short piece of pipe that is flared, with a flare nut, on that adapter. I could run that pipe all the way to the fuel pump, or put a gap in it so I can use the inline filter. Here is a picture of the adapter separated into its two parts, attached. Quote:
I am in the middle of Plano near US-75 and Parker Rd. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Get the proper fuel hard line. Invest in a flare nut wrench set. They'll help prevent stripping those delicate fuel line nuts. If you're gonna use an inline fuel filter, put it between the tank hard line and the pump. Get that carb proper rebuilt, not tinkered. The q-jet sounds perfect for what you want out of it. There's plenty of wiring and whatnot to clean up in the meantime. Also, some more pictures would be nice. That's a good lookin truck from what I've seen.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
It should be rubber between the pump and the tank hard line for vibration, like you said.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
It looks like you have some sort of adapter that was made as a repair for stripped out fuel inlet threads. As long as it doesn't leak, it shouldn't be a hazard. You will have to run an inline filter of some sort though, since you can't run the correct one in the carb anymore. Rubber fuel hose from the frame rail to fuel pump is ok on the suction side. When it is used on the pressure side is when it becomes a fire hazard. In some applications, it is necessary to use short lengths of hose between the pump and carburetor, in those cases, I always use "fuel injection rated hose" which is much higher quality.
If you want to stay with a Quadrajet, you might look around and find a later model core with the fuel inlet not stripped out, and rebuild it. Many of these also had electric chokes which I think are much better than the old divorced choke setup like you have now. You're in Plano, that's still a long way from me since I'm northwest of Ft Worth. I thought if you were closer, I might be able to help you out. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
You might be able to save that carb inlet with a self tapping fitting and do away with that 'McGuyveried' one.
http://quadrajetparts.com/quadrajet-...-c-128_27.html |
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Quote: "are we talking about buying off the shelf 2 general purpose springs, or is it sold as an accelerator return spring? Universal one or buy one specifically for the C-10 or Quadrajet?"
Yes, you have the right idea; the ones I use are just general purpose "nested" dual springs. (photo attached) Sometimes the kit comes with a mounting bracket that you can put under a convenient bolt that is in about the right spot to give you reasonable tension on the spring at full throttle; and enough to keep the throttle butterfly closed at idle. If there is too much tension on the spring I would worry about the throttle bushing getting worn so there is a happy medium somewhere that you will know when you feel it. I have seen these same springs described as Holley springs and Quadrajet springs.. you can google "carburetor dual springs" and see what you get but the type in the photo are usually hanging on a peg in the auto parts aisles. Oops I just noticed Grumpy was way ahead of me in mentioning the high arc in your fuel supply line.. sorry Grumpy, I didn't see it before I posted. One other observation I notice your spark plug wires are touching ground or metal in many places and sometimes moving parts. - That may or may not cause an issue - but I would keep that one that looks to be touching your temp gauge wire at least 1/4 inch from the wire.. (maybe I'm paranoid).. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
That brass piece your holding looks to be forced into what is called a reducer. They are common in any Lowes or hardware store. If you look at the threads, you can see they are crushed or stripped. Someone forced those two pieces together.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
On another. thought...did you pull the fuel sender. Check the sock at the end of the float / sender. If the truck sat a long time the sock would get gummed up, causing erratic fuel starvation.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
geezer#99 that is neat info about the self-tapping fitting, thanks, I did not know that sort of thing existed.
OK folks, here's what I'm thinking: http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/cb/full.aspx?Page=53 fuel line #1 from this page http://quadrajetparts.com/self-tappi...ing-p-130.html self tapping adapter http://quadrajetparts.com/inlet-fitt...ack-p-123.html gasket http://quadrajetparts.com/short-pape...lter-p-78.html filter http://quadrajetparts.com/spring-car...lter-p-84.html filter spring http://quadrajetparts.com/return-spr...al-p-2185.html return springs I am concerned that the fuel line specifically says 71-72 for that fuel line I need, and I have a 1969 truck. I have factory air conditioning, so I have some extra brackets to navigate through or around. |
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Did you know the auto parts stores have flared lines already made in various lengths.
Buy a tube bender and bend up your own line. Here's a bender. Most hardware stores have them too. http://www.harborfreight.com/tubing-bender-3755.html |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
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Good call. there are actually two lines. one from the tank line to the frame and the one from the fram to the fuel pump. few people know of them and fewer still are willing to climb under the truck and replace them. My 72's lines crumbled in my hand when I went to replace them. dripped lots of fuel contributing to my lousy gas milage. went to inspect the same ones on my 68...not so much just to inspect them but to replace them. they were as bad or worse. plus I got those two saddle tanks. hoses crumbles, leaked and fittings did too. |
Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
You ordered all the right parts. I found one in my garage but saw you ordered the exact same pieces. When you go to thread that new adapter on, be very, very sure it is square on the threads or you will open a new can of worms. Is that the oil pressure line almost touching the dizzy (distributor)? When you get your truck running, leave it run. Turn off all your lights in the garage. Now look towards the back of the engine and see if you spot any arcing. You can see them really good when it's dark. You might want to shorten and tuck the oil pressure line more down behind the engine. The arcing will hurt the performance of your engine.
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Unless the fuel line bend by the inline filter is starving the motor of fuel, none of those parts should correct the problem. Address the choke issue described above and report back. Also if you've been sucking up a bunch of gunk, you may yet need to dig into that carb. Try starting it as described above. It sounds like you've taken care of the motor, the old tank and the fuel lines... Why not show the carb a little love?
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Re: Feeling in over my head and not sure what to do next
Yes, thanks, I will get to that. Right now the fuel line problems and state of disassembly mean the fuel feed setup and filtering will be next, then the choke and other carb stuff, if the carb survives my installing that self-threading adapter.
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