58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

First time poster, so please forgive me for any mistakes I might make.

Anyways, I have a 1958 Apache that is currently a roller and a 97 ram 3500. I was wondering if anyone has put a 6bt in a bagged 58? I've found builds where a 6bt was swapped in, I've seen builds where they were bagged. I haven't found them together. If anyone knows of a link to a similar build please share. I just want to get a better understanding of what I would be getting into if i start down this route. Thank you.

-Gabe

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

not a 58 but.....
http://www.chevytv.com/showstopper-c...vy-c30-dually/

ive seen this one...part of the engine is under the cowl...

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

i have seen a build where it was done but the guy had to narrow the chassis to fit the old truck and it was a 4x4 so it sat high, no ire to fender issues, the tires stuck out from the truck if you like that look. lots of geometry issues there for steering parts etc. the engine will need to tuck in under the dash as well. possibly use the floor, firewall etc from the donor?
have a pile of cash stored away for all the extra stuff you will need and don't think of right away until you come to that point in the build. gonna take a lot of time and space for all the stuff from 2 truck dissassemblies. take lots of pics with dimensions and label all the pats as you remove them. not trying to discourage, just saying, you will need some good fab skills, good mechanical knowledge and lots of space. a large pocket book would also be an asset.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

Quick look at prices online, seems like you'd be better off just selling the RAM and using the money to get a nice clean LS that will fit with a lot less modification. Any particular reason for the 6bt or is it just because its laying around?

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

Dsraven,

I am planning to do a IFS, 4 Link rear, and box/x-member the frame of the 58, basically just planned to pull the engine and everything needed out the ram and swap it over if it seemed possible.



Gigamanx,

The LS route is the other option I'm considering for the build when I finally start on it. I picked up the ram 3500 for a pretty good price so it was a safe purchase if i decide to sell it i wont lose money. So yes the 6bt is on the table just because I already have it. lol

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

just keep in mind the 58 frame and engine bay was never designed for the capable torque and weight that a 6bt produces....if your still in the planning stages I would also recommend the LS route....I think you'd be much happier in the end....the LS would be a much easier install

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

keep the cummins.

There are enough cookie cutter LS trucks out there.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

Well a slammed truck with a diesel stuck in it smells like a rat rod to me.

Along with that thought, that engine needs a seriously stout frame under it or you end up twisting up the frame, Dodge found that out when they first brought them out in the Square body 3/4 tons and had to drop using the lighter frames.
These guys will tell you that I am the furthest thing from being a fan of frame swaps bu in this case if I wanted the diesel I would swap the Chevy body over on the Dodge chassis and concentrate on getting the body to fit. I don't see the combination of Chevy cab and that diesel as being bait for a slammed truck though, lowered yes but not a ground scraper

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

if the goal is to do something different, cut the firewall for the engine, find a radiator to cool it, upgrade all the frame and suspension to carry it, change the fuel system to feed it, and generally make it work. in fact the only thing you probably shouldnt do is get online and ask others how to do it.


said another way, punching the wall over and over may, with a lot of time and pain and associated costs, eventually produce a beautiful work of art. but I will still just use paint instead.


I like different, I do different (and sometimes deeply unpopular) stuff. so dont misunderstand.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

an LE8 common in squarebodies made ~360 ft-lbs. stock 6bt makes 400 ft-lbs.

what's also interesting is the GM granny low was in the 6:1 range and the getrag unit in the dodge was around 4:1, effectively giving the 454 more torque output.

my point is, if this gentlemen was asking about a big block conversion nobody would bat an eye on the frame stiffness.

if the 6bt is going to go in stock it be fine. If you're going to turn it up I would look for a period correct 3/4 or 1 ton frame to use or beef up the original one.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

diesels are more efficient than their gasoline counterparts at turning liquid energy into rotational power, therefore actually needing less cooling.

a standard drop in aftermarket aluminum radiator would be more than sufficient for the cummins.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

a 454 is 675 lbs. a cummins 6BT is close to twice that.


if you have read through some of the 6BT swaps, a drop in radiator is not enough and is one of the biggest problems with the swap

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

problem with this setup is adjusting valve lash on number 6 would totally suck.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

yes the cummins is about 400lbs more.


none of the cummins swaps I interact with have cooling issues. none have fancy cooling systems.

The stock setup in a non-intercooled dodge is super basic. Keep the engine driven fan with a shroud as it'll out move any electrics. That's pretty much it.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

a 6BT is 1200lbs dressed. thats almost 600 lbs more.

are any in a 58 chevy truck? there are some 6bt swaps in the projects sections, the radiator to fit the core support is one of the problems.

the truck that has the #6 under the cowl in the link above doesnt have room for the stock fan. you are talking loftily about something you have never done, and wont chip in on finishing.

my advice was if you want to do it, do it! but be aware of the problems with the swap. drive up and help him, if you are so certain its easy.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

the problem with the firewall is not how the motor is pushed into it, but rather how the clearance on the top of the recess is minimal.

I fit a large aluminum radiator and an air2air intercooler with a condenser in a coresupport in the front of my '49. I am sure my cooling setup would cool a stock 6bt.
These TF trucks have even more space, so yes- it isn't terribly difficult.


I'd be happy to help the guy as he progresses.

so much negativity. dang.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

well you cant lower it much in the engine compartment on a bagged truck. and to fit a stock fan you would have the back two cylinders under that recess. thats a 60-66 too, even more room than a TF. visit the project section, the TF/6bt that stands out in my memory is the one with the firewall recess all the way to the surface of the dash.

I am not saying its impossible, just to be aware of the pitfalls. its one thing to build a 6bt truck to tow a trailer or do that kind of work, but building one to bag it, well, its going to be a lot of work just to prove a point.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

how about you just keep the dodge frame etc and make the old cab and box fit.
just thinking that would be easier and keep the frame/steering etc all stock so it would drive/steer/corner etc like it was meant to.
body work=easier than frame work. maybe use a stock width cab and a set of big truck front fenders etc for the extra width and bigger wheel openings?

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

iggy
if your intention is to have a diesel powered 58 I would consider a 4bt over the 6bt just from a ease of install standpoint...one thing we don't know is your skill level...have you done anything like this before?
its gonna take a lot of fab work to squeeze that 6 in there...a 4 would be easier I think...

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

Big block, small block, 6 cylinder, gas, diesel, who cares? Do what you want.

Anyhow, I don't see why it couldn't be done in a clean fashion. Guys have been stuffing GMC 302's in AD trucks for years. Sure there was some cutting and hacking, radiator moving, etc... That's part of hot rodding. The GMC 302 was long and heavy, not a whole lot different than the Cummins. Not to mention, the AD trucks came with short water pump 235's whereas the TF trucks had the long water pump version, which tells me they had a longer engine bay.

I know the short 235 is 30" from bellhousing to water pump. From research, the Cummins is 34 to the water pump, minus the fan.

The Cummins will have more to it than the venerable inliner. Such as, Turbo, intercooler, and all it's plumbing. So that may become an issue.

The Cummins will weigh a bit more than the old inline. But, if you've ever pulled a 235, 261, or 302 you'll notice they aren't exactly light.

Some frame boxing plates will help. Adding some crossmembers, will help even more.

A set back firewall may or may not be needed. I would be willing to guess a larger trans hump will be necessary.

Here's an AD truck with a Cummins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5cKNhC--Y4

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

are you sure you didnt get the measurements from a 4BT? a 6BT is longer than 34 inches, it is 40 plus the belts/serpentine. an AD GMC with a 248 was an inch and a half longer than a 235 and needed the rad moved inside the core support and a shorter water pump/fan to fit.

your youtube link shows a 6BT with the back two cylinders inside the firewall. the first link in the thread shows a 60-66 which has a couple inches more room than a TF.

here is the engine setback of a 6bt in a 55 TF

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/l...%20Rough_1.jpg

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/l...0c010766d9.jpg


67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=735623

that truck used the dodge frame and running gear too.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

Well everyone by the sound of it a 6bt sounds like its probably out of my skill range/budget/space available in my garage. Maybe a 4bt but it will likely end up being a LS swap. I wont be able to start until july at the earliest when i get back from this deployment. Thanks everyone for all your input.

-Iggy

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

deployment you say...well thank you for your service....

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

No, thank you for the support. Also heres a picture of my truck as it sits now

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

JoeDoh, I can't say if the 34" is accurate. Just info from other forums. I do do know that 40" to the front of the fan seems to be the general consensus.
Looking at the bottom pic, appears to be a fan shroud.

For what it's worth. Removing the fan and clutch on my 4200, gave me an extra 4" to work with.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

cummings 6bt specs....
http://www.cumminshub.com/12v.html

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

cummings 4bt specs......
http://www.cumminshub.com/4bt.html

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

thanks mongo, those are the specs I remembered. usually length is given without the accessories, its the overall block length with the water pump on it. 34 seemed unlikely to me because its got 6 4" pistons with at least an inch between them and at the ends, so 34" might be a block/head measurement but couldnt possibly be an overall.



yes, that one kept the stock fan. but the firewall recess is over 12", too. 4" for the fan wouldnt have saved that firewall.



thanks for your service IggyPop! and dont be discouraged by our flapping, if you still wanted the cummins you can do it! bird in the hand and all. or keep the dodge to tow the 58.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

The 34" May not be realistic, but I don't think it's far off.

The bath-tub sized firewall recess looks to be a little much though too.

The front of those motors are a little busy, the later ones even worse.

For argument sake. Here's one in a 48 Ford and one going into an IH Scout.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

34 inches isnt far off, its 6" off according to the specs.



I dont understand your argument I guess, every single 6bt swap you yourself has shown has needed the firewall modded. I showed pictures of what a 6BT in a TF needed from a guy who actually did it and you dont think its accurate. I guess keep your opinion, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

no offense, but you speak straight from your a$$.

Some facts-

bore spacing is 4.75". So about 3/4" meat between cylinders.

40" length would include the commercial SAE adapter to the front space of the water pump. 1005mm OAL. Back of block to front of water pump is 34.25"(870.9mm). So the engine is 34.25" plus fan and such.

drawing snip attached.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

I was off by a 1/4 inch in bore spacing and speak from my a$$? you had to look up what I already knew.

when whitedog said 34" he was including the accessories, I said it wasnt possible. you looked it up as 34.25 without any accessories. thats how everyone runs these engines, right?

so if you and whitedog were buidling the truck it would have an unmodified firewall and no accessories. sounds practical. all to prove me wrong.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

It's in plain text above. The engine is not 40" long.

the OAL of the cummins is 34.25". The alt sits next to the block, the furest protrusion is the water pump.

the 40" includes an adapter that is not used for the dodge based cummins.

so yes, you speak with no real experience. I understand you have read a few forum posts and this makes you an expert. But unfortunately, you don't actually know.

whitedog76 actually had the correct number, yet you talked him away from it. He even posted pictures showing his confusion, and you still talked him down from his belief.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

I actually said 34" sounded like a block/head measurement, which it is. 40" overall sounded like the measurement I took with my own eyes when I measured a 12v cummins for a swap.

so go ahead and plan for 34" length to install one. shouldnt need any of my input to make it work, you have the technical drawing you googled for! building with pictures is real building!

edit: your technical drawing shows 882mm for the block and 123mm for the accessories. thats 39.6" overall, PLUS FAN.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

882.1-134.1+123=871mm(34.29in). but who's counting.

at any point you can admit to spreading false information and look less like a jackass.

If you don't think you can build from drawings, don't go look at my build thread of my '76. It'll scare you how accurate they are.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

funny, I was going to say the same thing to you! apparently part of the engine doesnt exist either in real life or on the drawing.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/knq7ooPjEzE/maxresdefault.jpg


you have doubled down, now you dont need accessories OR a starter. your cummins swap will be under two feet long in no time.

I looked at your build thread, nice work! I am an engineer by trade too. if I read a drawing like you do (subtracting a part that didnt agree with) I wouldnt have a job very long though.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

as mentioned, that is the SAE adapter. The dodge conversion parts to use the cummins are very proprietary. Any drawings found on 'google' will be of the cummins in its natural environment; some kind of industrial use. Industry has agreed to specific bellhousing bolt patterns, all driven by SAE.

The dodge transmissions have the direct to cummins patten in the bellhousing, not needing the adapter. Fritolay ordered a bunch of cummins 4bt powered bread trucks which had a GM turbo400 adapter, much thinner than the SAE. This has since been knocked off and recreated for other transmissions as well. Evenso, the dodge unit can be built to be the strongest.

I'm putting together another comparison of cummins, gen IV 5.3, LBZ duramax, and the mighty 235 as time allows. I'll post some screenshots shortly.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

the adapter plate has no bearing on firewall depth, or overall engine length.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

it sure does when it hits the firewall. unless you carve it out, which has been my point.

Re: 58 Apache Bagged Cummins
 

I would typically refer to that area as the transmission tunnel.

Man you should quit being an engineer and argue in court. You seem better at that.