Make it handle

[68 SWB]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

68 SWB - Lets start with the easy answer. There are several good quality kits on the market. Hotchkis, Ridetech, Porterbuilt, Early Classics, and others. You can spend $4000 to $6000 and get it done. And probably, the next guy will run faster than you. Does that mean these parts are no good? No, they are good parts, but thats not enough. It's the other things that will make the difference. I like 18's better than 20's, but thats me, and unsprung wieght makes a difference on the track, and the ride is better. Tires win races. Kumho, Bridgestone, BFG, Falken, but stay with 300 treadware or less. Most Autocross clubs, and Goodguys have a 180 treadware rule. Wieght is a big issue, put that pig on a diet, and focus on the front end. Every pound helps. Motor placement, If you can move the motor down and back, DO IT!! OK, so on to your question. Spindles and springs, I like McGauphy's or Western chassis, spindles. Doetch tech lowering springs are pretty good, so are Hotchkis. If your Really cool, you'll learn how to tune springs, and start searching some Oval track suppliers, who have many more choices avail. I have used Porter, Ridetech and E.C. arms, and like them. I have not used the new Hotchkis arms yet. If I didn't mention others - well, you guess. In the back, 2" block and 4" spring. I like the E.C. raised crossmember, but others are good. Swaybars. GO BIG, but keep the back within 1/4" of the front. Move the tank back. I sell them, buy one so I can eat. Move the battery back. I sell battery boxes too . Take the time to shim the pinion angle. It's free HP. Here's what you forgot. BRAKES. Save up and do it right, and put an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear line. Steering, AGR or LEE box. If you get out to the 7-9 deg caster range, you will need to work on bumpsteer. Hotchkis's center link will help, or modify the stocker. Replace the rag joint and coupler with good quality U-Joints. Again, I sell the Flaming River joints. Steering feedback is needed. Spend $ on shocks. Now it's on you. Let us know your plan, and the results.

My project is a ways off in the future, still in the planning stage. I left the brakes, tires, steering, and back spacing out of my original post as I figured they were different considerations to the chassis geometry, components, and dampening setup. After all you can't put slicks and wheels on a dump truck and have it beat a Corvette ZR1 around the Nürburgring. I guess ideally if the truck could run with a prepped Miata or C5-C6 Vette without building a tube chassis for it or spending 10K on suspension that would be great.

Getting weight off the front would important, but with it being a truck I'm sure you would limited on how much could be transferred to the rear within reason. By the way, what is the ideal setup for the pinion angle?

[pharmd]

Rob do you have P/N's on the AGR and Lee steering units that you would recommend for the 63-66 C-10 setup?

[Mike Bradbury]

Well I just read the entire thread cover to cover including every bodies links, now I am too tired to remember any of my questions I had from the first several pages.

The one I did have was concerning the rear sway bar, I am running custom trailing arms on a Lincoln 9". I have heard that with the trailing arm suspension the rear sway bar is not as crucial because the axle acts as the sway bar. True?

I did set the arms wide and mounted 300lb 12" springs on Bilstein coil overs behind the axle and it does ride very nice. I am still in the working out the kinks phase so I have not really opened it up yet so I do not know how it handles other than daily driving.

[robnolimit]

Mech77, you may have to expand your shock budget a bit. We use and sell "Romic" aluminum smooth body and threaded body shocks. Smooth single adjustable 5" stroke shocks are 174.50 each, with 5/8 or 1/2" bushing, or 1/2" bearing. Also check Pro, and Afco. I looked on E-bay and found a bunch to choose from, stay in the 5 to 6" stroke range. Also, look at the rancho 9000, not sure of the lengths. You want a medium to firm compresion, like a #4 to #6 valve, and adjustadle rebound.

[Mechanic77]

Thanks Rob, I was afraid I might have to spend a bit more to get what I want. I'll do some checking around

Thanks again, Andy

[robnolimit]

Welcome to the thread Mike. Hmm, no, the axle is not a sway bar.The axle and trailing arms form a triangle. If you were to grab a triangle at one of the points, it wouls be easy to 'twist' the triangle side to side, and to rotate it around the center pivit. The Pahard rod takes care of the side to side. So, it's the swaybar's job to control the roll. Sounds like a nice truck so far. I like to run soft rear springs, like 175 or 200 on a C-10, this will produce more natural body roll, but more bite. Then let the sway bar deal with the increased roll. Hope to see you at the Del Mar GoodGuys in April.

[Mike Bradbury]

Rob,
So if I am running a 1.125" in the front then a 1" in the back? My goal is not a track racer but something that will handle well on the road if I need to avoid something or someone, but that is also fun on the mountian roads.

I will be there again this year. Are you bringing the '55 to the show? My dad had a Hemi powered '56 in his younger days and would love to see it.

[robnolimit]

The 1 1/8" ft, and 1" rear is a good mild to mid match, and won't be too harsh. I like that set up on trucks that are drivin alot. some of our roads are pretty rough (or dirt) so bigger bars can take the pleasure out of driving. Yes, we'll be there with the '55, and hopefully a few more fresh builds. See you there.

[robnolimit]

PharmD, I hate to give part #'s for parts that I don't carry, in case I make a mistake. In many cases, you should go straight to the source. Lee Mfg. - 818-768-0371, in Ca., and AGR perf. - 817-626-9006, in Tx. Call and talk to them. Lee is my first choice if performance is the first priority, but the cost is higher. AGR is a very nice piece and a good price.

[tasian]

man i cant wait to see you get started on the 72' make sure to get lots of pictures lol

i was wondering other then a flip kit (already did that) what are some good changes to make on a rear with leafs?

[robnolimit]

Leafs can be set up to handle pretty good. The main thing to overcome is the spring friction. Leafs have to 'grind' on each other as the suspension moves, and that friction makes the sping act inconsistent. I typically pull all but the four longest leafs, guessing you don't haul a whole lot, to get the spring rate down. Then grind a radius on the ends of the leafs. Install teflon spring liner between each leaf, with some litheum grease, and put the spring pack back together. Then its shocks and swaybars like everbody else. The spring prep takes man hours, but doesn't cost much, and it's really worth it. Give it a try.

[Mechanic77]

Hey Rob, do you think it would be worth the effort to put weight jacks on an air bag setup? I could see it potentially giving you the option to change spring rate in effect by allowing you to adjust air pressure and then using the weight jack to put the ride height where you want it. The only problem I can see is the possibility of the bag trying to roll over without the lateral support of a normal mount (if you can understand what I'm saying). Just a thought

[skoffice]

Rob, what is your opinion on limiting straps? My friend and I were discussing the other day possibly putting them on our A-arms because the coils are so short, a guy wouldn't want the coil to come unseated in a hard dive of a turn. This is on a stock style coil front suspension with aftermarket control arms in our 60's trucks. Or would the limit strap be a bad idea and hurt the roll center if ever extended that far?
Thanks for your wealth of knowledge and information!

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Leafs can be set up to handle pretty good. The main thing to overcome is the spring friction. Leafs have to 'grind' on each other as the suspension moves, and that friction makes the sping act inconsistent. I typically pull all but the four longest leafs, guessing you don't haul a whole lot, to get the spring rate down. Then grind a radius on the ends of the leafs. Install teflon spring liner between each leaf, with some litheum grease, and put the spring pack back together. Then its shocks and swaybars like everbody else. The spring prep takes man hours, but doesn't cost much, and it's really worth it. Give it a try.

'Grease' can adversely effect the spring steel of springs made post 50's era according to Detroit-Eaton spring. An alternative is graphite lube.

What about the leaf spring bushings? Wouldn't eliminating friction there make the spring work more consistently? Does anyone make Delrin bushings that would eliminate the inherent 'binding' associated w/OE type rubber and/or aftermarket poly bushings?

[Mechanic77]

What about the leaf spring bushings? Wouldn't eliminating friction there make the spring work more consistently? Does anyone make Delrin bushings that would eliminate the inherent 'binding' associated w/OE type rubber and/or aftermarket poly bushings?[/QUOTE]

Rob can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you want to stay away from a solid type bushing on leafsprings. I'm pretty sure somebody out there makes a heim end style bushing that presses in and allows for articulation.....I'm thinking a solid bushing will cause the suspension to bind up, kind of like running polyurethane bushings in the rear trailing arms.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Mechanic77

Rob can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you want to stay away from a solid type bushing on leafsprings. I'm pretty sure somebody out there makes a heim end style bushing that presses in and allows for articulation.....I'm thinking a solid bushing will cause the suspension to bind up, kind of like running polyurethane bushings in the rear trailing arms.

Delrin bushings allow the spring ends to pivot freely (like a bearing) vs. w/binding (rubber or poly bushing compressed in place).

Delrin bushings would eliminate any deflection. But, the spring & shocks should be providing the suspension dampening, not the bushing material.

[nesox]

This post is exactly what I've needed. Thanks.

Rob,I was wondering if sectioning my stock control arms to gain improved caster would be a good idea. If so. How much back and forth respectively?

[tasian]

im glad to hear that i've been worryed i would have to switch to coil's in the rear to get it to handle decent the swaybars are already in the works along with a pair of KYB adjustable shocks i looked around and had a hard time finding teflon for the springs online is it something that most spring shops carry?

also i flopped the axle but i still need to c-notch the frame switch the U bolts used to mock it all up and a few other little things and was thinking about centering the wheel (its back a couple inchs in the wheel well on the long beds and shows a bit more with the axle flipped) it would only be a inch or two but i wasn't sure if it will hurt my handling? and thanks for all the info im pretty lost when it comes to the finer points of suspension

[robnolimit]

Hi, chatting from Roanoke, Va. today, it's a blustery 22 deg. Brrrrr. hey, thats life. I'll be back in sunny So. Cal. soon.

Mech77 - I get the whole idea of wieght jacks and bags, for tuning, but the fabrication difficulty makes it tough. It would be more reasonable to build your mounts a 1/2" too far apart, and then shim to tune the ride. Once your dailed, you would change much.

Skoffice - Limiting straps may be a concern if the springs are really short. This is one of the reasons that I try to keep the springs longer and drop the truck in other ways. If the truck has the right swaybars on it, the sway bar should keep enough tension on the inside spring to stop it from falling out. If needed, the shock length can be adjusted to act as the travel limiter, but again, this may limit some suspension travel, butif the spring is that short, there's no spring travel out there anyway. I would only use a limiter strap as a last resort, but if thats your only answer, it's better than the spring popping out.

Tasians - Try Detriot/Eaton spring for the liner. Also, Speedway and JC Whitney. If you flipped the axle, you'll need a bolt in C-notch for clearance. As for centering the axle, you should be able to drill holes in the axle pad and U-bolt plates to accomplish this. Just remember to shorten the drive shaft. Moving the axle forward will actually help the handling.

My new project C-10 is at the shop, and I'll get some picts up as soon as I get home.

[SBTork]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

My new project C-10 is at the shop, and I'll get some picts up as soon as I get home.

if it's going to be a build with anywhere near the quality of your ford truck build.....I can't wait...

[robnolimit]

Ian30, Your project looks good, single sheer is fine for the street on this type of set up. I get the off road concerns, but we don't get those kind of forces. Besides, it would take about 8000 lbs of load to bend the 5/8" grade 8 bolts. As to the mounting, thats the way we layed it out, so that the bushings have as little amount of binding as possible through the suspension travel. Looks like your making great progress.

To all of you here, have a great christmas, and a prosperous new year!!

[robnolimit]

Tony, I'll get the lengths over the weekend. I hope you and yours have a great christmas. You coming out to Del-Mar, or spring Scottsdale?

[Ian30]

Just a disclaimer... The picture in my post above was borrowed from Blindman and is his project. Mine is not this far along.

[robnolimit]

Check out the thread - 58fleetside - in the 47-59 forum. He is using our parts / with a few mods to set it on the ground. To everyone here, Have a Merry Christmas. Hope Santa brings you lots of shiney truck stuff!!!

[robnolimit]

Merry Christmas folks, If your searching the after christmas sales for some new rolling stock, keep this in mind. Widening the track width will increase the trucks natural roll resistance (body roll in a corner). Even a 1/2" makes a difference. The front wheels on our Silver Bullit are 18 x 9 Intro's with a 5" backspace, and we run a 275/35-18 BFG KDW tire. Last week I bolted in some 1" wheel spacers (not very safe, I know) and did some light track testing. Speeds into and through some test corners on our local track showed a bit of an increase. I dropped the front 1 " to check clearance, and had a slight rubbing on a banked right hand corner, so this may be a bit too wide. With everything checked out, I will be pulling the wheels off next week, and have the centers cut out and re-welded at 4 1/4" backspace. It doesn't sound like much, but 3/4" per side gives 1 1/2" overall, a 2.3% increase. Every little bit, you know? So, if you searching for wheels, try to keep your stance as wide as you can, and still clear everything.