Mustang II IFS Ride Quality VS S10 Swap

[dsraven]

with you there LG. I have recommended to a few guys just starting out that they should start small. don't fully strip down the truck unless they have the room, have the tools, have the time and also have the money. if it is gonna be a "drive while you work on it" project then do stuff that can be done in a weekend or a week. try not to get in too deep at one time because that can make a huge work list and then it becomes overwhelming. get a plan that makes sense and try to stick to it. there are lots of guys that went down the slippery slope of "might as well do this other thing while its apart". if it's a driver already, and you want a MII installed, then start by a good cleaning of the work area on the truck, then lube up all the nuts and bolts that will need to come apart so they can soak for a day or two, get a work space and storage area set up prior to the date for work and think through the process of how it will come apart, where the parts taken off will go before they need to go back on, get jacks, stands, blocking etc ready. line up some help if you can. read through the instructions a few times so you fully understand how the new parts are supposed to go together. research a little on how IFS works so you have an idea how it shoud look. check a few similar builds to see how it was done and what problems were encountered. decide on the rake angle and even mock up the truck beforehand so you know you have enough blocking and stands etc.
not trying to discourage anyone, just advising not to bite off more than you can chew.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by leegreen

kudos to joedough for having a formula that lets him crank out s10 swapped trucks and sell them and keep it going for a decade or more. He clearly knows how much to pay for candidates, knows how far to take each project and what to sell it for.

you want to hear the REALLY BAD NEWS?

1. every single truck i build and sell the new owners are deliriously happy with their trucks. not secretly unhappy about what they paid for, or sad about the ride, or the resale value. its a fact. They send me christmas cards, they send pics out of the blue, they love the trucks and I made friends with every one of them.

2. I never once regretted building any of them. ok maybe the 5spd 41 because no one can drive a stick any more and it took a long time to sell. but it paid for itself!

3. here is the one that will ruffle feathers. I have built and sold about 16 swaps (my memory is fuzzy). if you add up the money from those sales, it probably ECLIPSES even what the big dollar single trucks sell for on Mecum or Barrett Jackson. Avg selling price 13.5k. some a lot more, a few less. X16. $216k. maybe there was a $250k truck that sold. I guarantee I had less in the trucks than that single $250k truck had spent. want to make it all about money? dispute that. I have done this in the time that others have been talking about building their trucks. pauly shore said it, SOTAOT.

stop keyboarding, stop making excuses. build whatever turns your crank and if you are done with it and dont like it you still have plenty of life left to build another one. or build the same one. the thing i love is building, not sitting in my comfy chair throwing rocks at things i dont like, not telling everyone how great its gonna be when i finally pick up the torch. BUILDING. Build it and then start over again. BUILD. Get to it already.

[28TudorAZ]

I think it really depends on what you are starting with. If you already have a running truck that doesn't need much else then Mustang II seems like the logical choice. If you are having to do everything like I had to then S10 swap is definitely a great option. I am glad that is the option I went with. It drives really nice with stock components I can get them anywhere. I am currently working on a 69 Scout and have thought about frame swapping it because I know the nicer it drives the more I will drive it and enjoy it.

[mr48chev]

When you read Joedoe's post number 27 through word for word you see one thing.

His average sale price that gives him a tidy profit is between 13.5 and 15.5. Not high dollar trucks just a heck of a lot of fun for the money for a safely built truck.

Quote "

3. here is the one that will ruffle feathers. I have built and sold about 16 swaps (my memory is fuzzy). if you add up the money from those sales, it probably ECLIPSES even what the big dollar single trucks sell for on Mecum or Barrett Jackson. Avg selling price 13.5k. some a lot more, a few less. X16. $216k. maybe there was a $250k truck that sold. I guarantee I had less in the trucks than that single $250k truck had spent. want to make it all about money? dispute that. I have done this in the time that others have been talking about building their trucks. pauly shore said it, SOTAOT.

That keeps it exactly in perspective, S-10 swaps are great if you aren't going high dollar on the build and aren't starting with a nice original truck. Many that plan to run them want a bagged truck that will lay frame and the homework on that was done in the 90's and all you have to do is check the right boxes.

Still the Long bed S 10's around here were almost all work trucks that spent years running up and down the ditch rows of local fields or belonged to farm workers who drove them until they were so worn out they weren't worth repairing again. 250, 300 or more thousand miles on one isn't unusual. Then you have to rebuild the suspension before you can drive the truck.

Still it comes down to what you want the truck to be and what level you plan to take it to. Under 25K fun truck that you drive a lot? S-10 great, High level show quality truck with a 10K paint job and 10 K interior if you can get it done for that now, go MII or other custom suspension with the original frame unless you go total custom chassis.

[leegreen]

S10 frame swaps deliver a truck with a decent IFS, power steering, disk brakes, open driveline good for 300+Hp and reasonably stiff frame. And a brake system engineered so front, rear, master and prop valve all do their thing. But the front suspension may look narrow.

"go MII or other custom suspension with the original frame"
So now you have a decent but not overly strong IFS, and front disk, maybe power steering. you still need a rear axle, new springs, shock mounts, driveshaft and some work to balance front and rear brakes, engine mounts, crossmember. All on a 70 year old frame that was designed to flex.

If done right, both will be fine driving trucks for an enthusiast.
Nether of these is a formula for a $250,000 sticker price.

With the same body/paint/engine/interior on either chassis I don't get the supposition that the one with the MII crossmember welded on is worth more or more worthy of someone putting 10k into the paint or interior.

Just remember, most $16k trucks with $10k paint jobs and $10k interiors will not sell for anywhere near $36k. If you measure this hobby with dollars and want to come out ahead you need a pretty solid plan, skills and some luck.

[MARTINSR]

And of course I will say something and someone will beat me up because this question wasn't asked.

You also want to think about if you really need the IFS and disc brakes and all that on YOUR truck. We are all different in our needs. Every one of these trucks doesn't need to be changed to make it "modern."

I had put a Camaro clip on my frame, I was deep into it but thankfully hadn't gotten into the mods to the rad support and all that when I drove a co-workers truck with a dropped axle and modern dropped springs and realized how nice it drove.

We all don't need that stuff, for drives around town and to little get togethers and all that most of us do with our AD's we don't need to make it like a late model truck towing boats and campers and stuff like that.

Some of us do, I understand that. But just think about what you do with your truck and if you really need the modern suspension.

Brian

[mr48chev]

As far as ride and feel and handling to some degree a lot of what we see being done to these trucks comes from what we are used to from our years of driving an some of us have been driving for over 60 years and some have been driving for less than 20. We have members who can actually be in their mid 40's who may have never driven a vehicle without 4 wheel disk brakes and 4 corner independent suspension. A good number of those may have never driven a vehicle that didn't have factory power steering. When they climb into an AD that they just bought and go for that first real drive it steers harder, rides stiffer and doesn't take the corners like their daily driver does and they want changes.

A bit of independent front suspension on AD trucks history.

Back in the late 50's and 60's there were a number of AD trucks running around with 51/54 Chevy car front suspension and steering. It's actually a fairly easy swap.
Then some folks figured out that a 63/68 C10 drum brake front end would bolt under an AD real easy. To the point that it is pretty well a bolt in. Good width and matched the rear bolt pattern if you didn't want to change rear axles.

Then we went to the Camaro, Firebird, Nova subframes in the late 70's and they were the hot lick in the 80's because you could pick one up just about anywhere for 100 bucks. Then when you went to put the front end sheetmetal back on you found out that you had to cut a lot of the inner sheet metal up to get it to fit. Obsolete tech now as there are better ways to do it.

Mid/late 70's guys discovered that they could cut the front suspension out of a Mustang II, Pinto or Bobcat pretty easily and trim it up and stick them under these trucks or rods. A new MII front crossmember was 110 dollars over the counter at the Ford dealership saving the cutting if you wanted to spend that 110. A lot of kit cars including Cobra kits use those in the early 80's. The aftermarket MII based front end thing got started first with crossmembers that used stock pieces and then tube A arms and have kept advancing somewhat.
Then in the 90's guys figured out that those S10 long bed work trucks that were sitting around beside driveways with broken or worn out engines had a frame that was the right size to stick under and AD and were dirt cheap at the time. S-10 longbeds didn't have much value if they didn't run and do a day's work every day.

The S-10 swap even though it drives great and you can get replacement parts at any parts house has always been the "cheap swap" Joedoe is one of the smart ones as he builds affordable trucks for a certain market that the buyers love and enjoy and rack up miles on. He also starts with basic pieces or a truck that doesn't have a high dollar value on it's own. What I have never liked and what is a total turn off to me is the guy on Facebook who goes out and buys a 20K fully restored truck with a fairly fresh original chassis and posts photos and announces that he is ready to do a S-10 swap and asks how does he do it and where does he get the stuff to do it and the first answer says spend 1500 for the _____ kit and then swap rear axles and get the wide tube a arms to widen the front end. Then there is the guy who buys a well built truck with name brand MII, rear spring swap and camaro rear with a 350/350 and posts the chassis for sale because the guys at the spit and whittle club said that he had to have an S-10 chassis under it.

Still it all centers around what kind of rig you intend to build and how much money you have or intend to spend. If you can't build a running and safe driving S-10 swap patina truck for under 5 K you are doing something wrong. That won't be a fancy truck, it won't have a 400 hp LS and it won't be running 22 inch rims but it will be a solid truck that you can drive anywhere and have a blast with. the fancy stuff can come later or on the next build.

[leegreen]

>a 63/68 C10 drum brake front end would bolt under an AD real easy. To the point that it is pretty well a bolt in. Good width <

this is incorrect, it is too wide for AD fenders. I know this for a fact from personal experience.