very frustrated

[halfadeuce]

Hey gearboxx, let me take a moment to thank you for your help. The engine is a 77-79 350. It has a 168 tooth flexplate.I do have it installed the correct way and I will look into the voltage before a grab another starter. I have to take a weekend off working on the truck because its getting to me. Ill start fresh next week but I will explore all options before buying another starter. I've heard that some starters have a different amount of teeth. Is that possible? Also heard that using a newer year like 94 suburban may work. Can anyone confirm or deny?
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[halfadeuce]

Testing photo upload
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[halfadeuce]

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[gearboxx70]

I don't remember if the different size flexplates are compensated for by teeth on the starter or mounting position of the starter. There are also at least 3 different mounting styles for Chevy starters... 2 bolt/aligned, 2 bolt/staggered, and LS series engines. The best way to compare them would be to take yours to your favorite parts guy, and have him bring all 3 out to compare to yours. Take a tape measure with you so you can pull out the starter gears and measure the throw, compare mounting points, check the gear diameters, and make sure all mounting holes are correct. You can also ask them if they'll look up the starter you have to be sure its for your ENGINE (not year/make/model of the car).
No need to thank me. I just like people to enjoy their cars and be able to use them. I'm quite often in the same boat. I don't make alot of money, work on my own cars, and need them for basic transportation. If I get stuck on a problem, its a big problem since I need my cars to get me around!

[gearboxx70]

Too bad you're not a little closer to me. There's a car show in my little po-dunk town tomorrow. Might get you psyched about your Burb again, and all the owners are near their cars to chat with. Nothing like a gathering of a few hundred gearheads to help answer your questions!

[halfadeuce]

Dude, I don't even know where grass valley is. I tried to get it going by last weekend for motivation, there was a swapmeet down here at irwindale but obviously couldn't. I got satisfaction hearing it run for about 15 minutes last Saturday, but then the valve covers, dip stick and lower hose started leaking. Besides that I think the wife is tired of all the time I'm spending with the cars. Thanks for the invite though!
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[gearboxx70]

Just saw the photobucket pic you posted. Looks like the angle of your starter is off by a few degrees. If you have the small bracket at the tail of the starter that goes to the block, it may be bent, or the holes off by a bit. If you are just mounting by the 2 main mounting bolts near the nose of the starter, you need to check the mounting pad on the block to be sure its square with the flexplate. If the starter is off like that because the flexplate is holding it like that, you will indeed need shims. Parts stores carry those shims in packages or loose behind the counter. They vary in thickness, so you may want to get a stack of thinner ones if they sell them loose so you can stick a couple in at a time. I wouldn't recommend using washers. Shim both bolts at the same time.

[halfadeuce]

That picture was taken before the bracket. So if it needs shims I have to do both bolts?
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[gearboxx70]

I would recommend shimming both bolts. The shims come in various thicknesses from almost paper thin to nearly an 1/8th inch. This is so you can get it just right. The starter is real heavy, and usually only held by the 2 bolts at one end. If you shim only one bolt, you take away most of the surface area that supports the starter. You also have both bolts contacting uneven surfaces and trying to "tweek" to one side. The shims are about the size of the surface area the starter was meant to contact, so you keep the structural integrity of the bolts and mounting surfaces. That means the weight of the starter will be fully supported while the engine is trying to shake it loose, not to mention a heavy dose of gravity when you go over that speed bump just a little too fast.

[AzDon]

I'm kinda late to this discussion...... It's already been established that two different size flexplates exist, but not pointed out each flexplate size requires a specific starter.... The starter for the larger flexplate has the two mounting bolts staggered, while the smaller flexplate's starter has the mounting bolts parallel...
In either design, a "high torque" starter has a longer motor body that is eaily identified by a longer "contact screw" and spacer obtaining electricity from the solenoid.

I once had a flexplate that was bent enough that it didnt run true and would pass close enough to scuff against the starter teeth. When starting from a spot wher the teeth were close, the solenoid wouldnt pull far enough to engage the starter motor, but would jam the teeth meshed and I'd have to crawl under with a screwdriver to detangle it. When starting in a spot where the teeth were too far away, i'd get grinding.

Given a choiice, I'd get the bigger flexplate and starter and start with new stuff!

[halfadeuce]

Ok so after countless attemps of shimming and reshimming I ended up cracking the nose of the starter. So I exchanged it for the same kind of starter, ac delco body with a cheap nose cone. It obviously didn't fit right so I started the shimming game again. I was able to get the starter shaft to within 1/16 inch from the flexplate teeth. It didn't bind and it had more of an engaged tone if that makes sense. I tried it numerous times and no binding. I think I got it. Problem is it took about 3/8 of an inch of shims on the outside bolt. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it seems to be working. I was satisfied with it and bolted the brace back up and then the header. I was able to fire it up and let it run for a good hour. I have a valve cover leak to deal with and wiring for the electric fans but that's minor in comparison. Hopefully the starter will hold up.
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[bullington]

Have you hooked up a vacuum gauge to the engine?

[halfadeuce]

No I haven't yet. I have a couple small isues to take of before letting her run again. I found that my leak wasn't a valve cover, it is leaking out of the back of the intake manifold. Also the timing is off some how. It takes a couple of tries to fire up and the distributor is way cocked counterclockwise. I know the carburetor is junk so I'm just using it until I can get a new one.
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[halfadeuce]

Alright, the past couple of weeks have been pretty tough but I'm happy to say that my truck is back on the road. I removed and reinstalled the intake manifold with plenty of rtv, reinstalled the distributor with the rotor pointing toward no 1, installed new plugs and wires, had to get my radiator soldered and removed and replaced the timing cover gaskets and used plenty of rtv once again. I test drove it around the block Saturday and was greeted with no leaks. On Sunday I loaded the family and drove between 5-10 miles keeping it under 45 mph. I've been driving to work all week in it and it seems to be running fine except for a little stumble/surge while at speed. Does anyone know if that is common with a bad carburetor. I have the timing at 10-12 degrees. Also I noticed that it starts easy in the morning or after a long break, but its harder to start right after its been driven. Any suggestions?
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[68 TT]

Originally Posted by gearboxx70

Let's go back to the engine and flexplate for a sec... What size engine? As I said before, there are 2 different size flexplates for Chevy engines, the 168 tooth being waaayyy more common. Also, some are drilled out with 2 bolt patterns to fit multiple applications. And there plates for internal balancing and external balancing (SBC=internal, BBC= external, EXCEPT small block 400 which is external!)...

Just a minor correction. There are internally balanced big blocks (396 & 427) that share the same flexplate as the typical (non-400 crank) small blocks. They can run either the 153-tooth or 168-tooth flexplates.

The externally balanced engines (400 & 454) only came with the 168-tooth flexplates but they are different parts with different balance weights. Either will bolt up to any other pre-one piece rear main seal small or big block but is only correct for one application. I have seen 400 flexplates on 327's and non-counterweighted flexplates on 454's so you have to be certain what you have is correct for your engine.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by halfadeuce

Ok so after countless attemps of shimming and reshimming I ended up cracking the nose of the starter. So I exchanged it for the same kind of starter, ac delco body with a cheap nose cone. It obviously didn't fit right so I started the shimming game again. I was able to get the starter shaft to within 1/16 inch from the flexplate teeth. It didn't bind and it had more of an engaged tone if that makes sense. I tried it numerous times and no binding. I think I got it. Problem is it took about 3/8 of an inch of shims on the outside bolt. I know it shouldn't be that way, but it seems to be working. I was satisfied with it and bolted the brace back up and then the header. I was able to fire it up and let it run for a good hour. I have a valve cover leak to deal with and wiring for the electric fans but that's minor in comparison. Hopefully the starter will hold up.

3/8" of shims is oh so wrong and is a ticking time bomb for that starter. I would try a different parts store or a local auto electric shop that rebuilds starters & alternators and get you a starter with an OEM nose piece that fits properly.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by halfadeuce

...Also heard that using a newer year like 94 suburban may work. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Yes the smaller gear reduction starters on the 94-99 trucks & Suburbans bolts right up to 168-tooth flexplate applications. Also came on the 94-2001 full size vans and some similar years of S10 Blazers & Astro vans. I have one on my big block Camaro and love it. Smaller, lighter and more powerful.