47-55.1 Bought a 1950 GMC considering frame swap.

[suburban99]

Bought a 1950 GMC and I am considering swapping to an s10 chassis.
Truck will be patina..LS swapped...I have read skymang's how to and other threads..should I consider retaining the original frame? It's in good shape.

[youngrodder]

Use the stock frame especially if its in good shape.
There are too many S-10 frames out there an not always are they done the best in terms of quality. I tend to cringe when I hear S-10 frame.

I know every one has different budgets tho.

Marc

[dsraven]

my sugestion
get the body off
strip the frame with pressure washer or whatever to get the lumps off
get it on stands and level it up quick
check for rusted out spots or thin spots in the frame around connections where shock mounts rivet on, cross members attach etc
with a tape measure and some mask tape mark each cross member at it's center point from side to side
take a string line or laser and run it from the rear cross member mark across to the front cross member mark. see if all the marks in between line up
now check from corner to corner dimensions to ensure it is square within 1/8". have a helper or vice grip the tape to the frame so you know the tape is in the same spot on each side
now check it for sag with the string line or laser
now look for loose rivets, cracked cross members, cracks in the main frame etc
if all good decide what you will want for an end result as far as suspension goes. what will be the purpose for the truck, eg, canyon carver, straight line racer, grocery getter, weekend road tripper, in the weeds, only slightly lower than stock, adjustable air ride etc etc etc. that will help you decide what your underpinnings will be. then decide what your power will be and that should help you decide what your rear axle will need to be and what frame mods will be required. remember that these trucks are not very heavy so they get squirrelly with big power. if you plan to lop off the front and weld in a clip from another car, then lop off the back and weld in a C notch, then you might as well do a new frame or a swap frame because the only stock part of the frame will be the part under the cab
what do you have for skills, tools, shop to work in, storage area to keep all the parts in-you will be surprised how much of a pile there cab be. what will the budget be, account for over runs and the slippery slope of "while I'm here I might as well do this too". that should help you decide how far into the pocket book you can reach for parts. strip your parts down so you know what you are looking at for stuff you will need to buy. take pics as you go and sort of re-assemble stuff when you take it apart and box it up so you know what bolts went where and how. I suggest to buy a donor vehicle if you are on a tight budget. something with the engine and trans you would like to have. that way you get all the peripheral stuff. insurance write off auctions can be a place to start.
let us know your intentions

[dsraven]

https://www.canadianhotrodsinc.com/p...chevrolet-gmc/

Canadian dollars, so USD goes further. I have seen their frames at their facility and they look nice and have lots of thought put in. hand made in jig.

https://www.heidts.com/part/bx-306-h...y-truck-frame/

a want list on the side bar, with pricing

https://roadstershop.com/product/ful...4-chevy-truck/

just some ideas. pricing to show what a new frame will cost you. without knowing your skill set and availability of tooling etc it is hard to suggest any alternative ways. kinda sounds like you want independent front suspension, disc brakes up front, etc?

if doing a stock frame with an IFS up front and possibly some sort of rear suspension other than stock, consider a bolt in kit. before yo

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by suburban99

Bought a 1950 GMC and I am considering swapping to an s10 chassis.
Truck will be patina..LS swapped...I have read skymang's how to and other threads..should I consider retaining the original frame? It's in good shape.

Swapping 60 year old tech for 30 year old tech makes no sense. It's a lot easier to reuse the old frame than to rebuild, refabricate and modify an s10 frame. Nothing 1950 will fit the s10 frame.

Typically if you need to ask, you don't have the skillset required to pull off a frame swap. I have no doubt that I could swap a freightliner frame under any vehicle, I'd post the results, rather than ask how to do it. Taking advice from anyone who has never actually completed a build, is iffy in my book.

[mr48chev]

Another vote for keeping the original frame unless it is in too bad of shape to make it worth keeping.

I have no issues if you bought a cab on a pallet and don't have a frame or if you drug home a 1-1/2 ton or larger to use the cab in your build or if the frame you have is junk for anyone of a hundred reasons.

I do object to the concept that says " I just bought this AD truck that has a nice frame but I am going to scrap it and put an S-10 frame under it to be a cool guy and because the guys down at the spit and whittle club said it is cheaper than modifying my frame.
I've seen too many pretty nice trucks hacked up to stick an S-10 frame under them and then abandoned when the guy trying to do it gets in over his head. To do it right either takes following the directions of a couple of our members and making proper body and cab mounts or buying a 1500 dollar kit that just blew any idea of saving money.

Then we get into legalities. Unless you buy an S=10 with a title or buy the frame with a proper receipt from a wrecking yard you run the risk of having a frame from a stolen vehicle. All you need is to take your truck in for inspection to get a title and loose the truck because that great deal on a rolling frame off FB market place involved the frame from a stolen truck. Plus you need proof that you indeed legally own that frame. I've got a feeling that in the next few years we will hear some real crying from guys who bought a truck with a title that matches the cab in one state and gets nailed to the wall when they take the truck to another state to get it inspected and the frame numbers don't jive with the cab number and they don't have the truck properly documented.

As far as suspension options there are several viable ones for the front and or for the rear. The MII crossmembers at several levels. Jag XJ and it looks like that Steve finally has his AD crossmember for Dodge Dakota pieces available now. The price of the crossmember sounds a bit spendy But when you see the photos you can tell it is built plenty serous and stout. https://www.industrialchassisinc.com/

[MiraclePieCo]

No frame will ever fit your truck as perfectly as the original frame that came with it from the factory.

Having built them both ways, I will just say that I much prefer my stock frame/Mustang II setup in my panel truck to the S10 chassis in my pickup. It's cleaner and it was less work than re-engineering a chassis that was never designed to fit my truck.

Lotta really nice S10 setups out there (notably Skymangs), but this is just my personal experience.

[Father&son56project]

I am just finishing my S10 swap, and like you I am here in Canada. This is a tough question to answer without knowing more info about what you want. I did the S10 swap because my old truck had no drivetrain, the entire steering/suspension/brake system was completely shot, and my funds for toys like this are very limited. It’s a fair bit of work, but the S10 Swap How To thread here answers pretty much all of your questions. For the price of a used S10, you get almost everything you need. For those of you in The States who are providing advice, it’s important to remember that here in Canada our parts prices are always at least 100% higher than yours are.

If the budget is tight, and your purpose is to just have a reliable old truck to drive to cruise nights, then an S10 swap makes sense. You will however pay for the cost savings in terms of the time you will have to spend on the swap. The advice from other members so far is accurate. Nothing just bolts on like it would with a stock frame, so there is a ton of fabbing required. As for the concerns regarding stolen S10’s being sold (and the legal nightmares to follow), simply run the VIN through the Canadian Police Information Centre online to ensure the truck is legit (and as pointed out by mr48chev, make sure you get the documents when you buy it). Also consider resale value. From what I have seen here in Ontario, the resale value of S10 swapped trucks is a fair bit lower than those on stock frames.

If you are OK with spending the bucks for great handling and decent power, my advice would be to retain the stock frame as it will greatly simplify your life. The AD series has a decent aftermarket with lots of upgrade kits available. I’m not trying to point you in either direction here, this is all just some food for thought. Whatever route you choose, there’s a wealth of info on this site and the members will be there to help you out. They sure did for me!

[MARTINSR]

I call the frame swap a "money swap" "time swap" and "work swap" that's all it is. Putting your money time and work into a different frame that's all it is. You have to rebuild everything on the S-10 frame anyway, so spend that money on the original frame.

But it really depends on what are your expectations of the truck when done? Are you going to be towing a boat through mountain roads? An S10 swap would make some sense if that was the case. Do you plan on cruising out to shows on the weekends and just driving it to work on city streets and stuff, then there would be no reason to do that frame swap. I drove vintage cars every single day to work for years in the SF bay area, solid axles, drum brakes, driving them every single day, just like in 1950, they still work!

I don't know, I like driving vintage cars and trucks BECAUSE they are vintage! They are different, they are special, that's why I dig them so much. My truck is still being rebuilt and I will be driving it with a dropped axle and drum brakes just like I have since I bought it in 45 years ago.

Brian

[Tempest67]

Wow! why all the 'Hate' for S10 swaps ? lighten up people.


The question I asked myself is,

Do I feel more comfortable making and welding 4 cab mounts, 4 box mounts and 2 rad cradle mounts onto a S10 frame? (with all the blueprints provided on this website)

OR

do I prefer to buy and weld a Mustang II ($2000+) front suspension and a rear suspension ($1200+) coil over? 4 link? Camaro ?, to a 70 year old frame?


For the price of an old S10 ($400) , I went this route for these reasons

1. front suspension and geometry is all there. (no welding required)
2. Rear suspension all there, and if I wanted to make the diff 6 inches wider (which I did) I installed a Blazer diff. for $150. (straight bolt in)
3. I also used the S 10 steering box and steering column (power steering)

My purpose for the build was to have a reliable fun cruiser that was comfortable and easy to drive. (and that is what I have)

If I were to do it again, I may be better off (cheaper) to spend a little more ($2000 +) for a fully working S10 and use the complete drive train.

If you are comfortable welding front a rear suspensions on an old frame, then go for it, but, don't think that fabbing up some body mounts and box mounts is difficult. (if I can do it, it's not that hard)

Finally, I was at a Cruise Night (about 100 - 150 cars) this summer talking to a guy and when he found out that my truck was sitting on a S10 frame he said" Oh, everybody does that", so I said, "Really? do see another one here?"
....... and then he said "well, they are all over the US".



My advice is to decide what your purpose is for the finished truck (as previously mentioned) and do what you are comfortable with, after all, the purpose of this hobby/website is to have fun and enjoy everyone's creations.

that's my 2 cents

[joedoh]

the trucks I work on dont ever have a 3100 frame. usually its just a bare cab here, find a truck bed trailer there. s10 swaps make the most sense to me. it might be different if i had a complete truck but my frugality doesnt let me buy complete trucks haha.

doing the equivalent work as an s10 swap is not just a mii, its a full mii/rear/fuel lines/gas tank/brake lines/brake master/brake booster/pedals/steering column, even driveshaft. all that comes with the s10 frame if you buy it as a squarebody roller with the body still on. just a mii and its install cost more than my first entire s10 swap. there is something to saving that kind of money.

anyone who spends more than a weekend putting the body on an s10 frame with all the info available here and on the internet just isnt trying very hard. some guys buy bolt on kits, all the little things are figured out. some guys buy weld on kits with general instructions. some guys start with some cab mount blueprints and "draw the rest of the owl" (you might need to be older than a certain age to get that reference)

and after mounting the body you still have the same work as someone who started with a stock frame, the work that kills a lot of projects. pedals, steering, motor, wiring. so mii or s10 swap, you still have to do the work. remember that not one person here, the swap it guys, the stock frame guys, none of them at all is going to spend a dollar or a minute (more than posting) to help you finish. YOU have to do it.

So figure out your requirements:

what kind of space do you have? a falling down shed with a dirt floor or at least a 19x19 attached garage you can use both sides of? driveway you can leave things blown apart in or HOA?

what kind of tools do you have? underseat socket set for side of the road breakdowns or full toolbox with grinders and impacts and 7 sets of sockets? do you own a welder? plasma cutter?

what kind of skills do you have? rate your competency from "I stubbed my toe on the weedeater" last year to " full cage rock crawler build" last week. have you ever done something like this? its a lot of work, i was "two more days" finishing my last truck for a month. I still have 16 bullet points to work.

what is your budget? christmas club or more plastic than the pacific garbage patch?

what do you want the truck to do? look good? be shiny and pretty? low and slow? with a stock frame you are in charge of every system, and there are a lot of systems, brakes, fuel, cooling, controls, electrical, powertrain, which is different than drivetrain, lighting, hvac. with an s10 you can use some of the existing parts but you will never get any respect for it right tempest? haha.

I dont care what you do, I have no stake in it. I sell mounts to local guys and I dont tell them how to build it aside from going by and actually helping them. I would do the same for anyone on here if they were local. want a stock frame? cool, show me the build thread and keep it updated with progress. want an s10 frame? I may have advice you need. want to cut the body off a miata and stretch the chassis and stuff it under an AD? sign me up. these hard and fast opinions without budging are dumb, in my opinion, which may seem like a self admonishment, but I think the focus shouldnt be on telling people what to do but helping them do it.

[Tempest67]

funny you say that, "you will never get any respect for it right tempest? haha."


I was at another Cruise night and saw a Patina truck and asked if it was on a S10 frame, and the old fart looked at me and said " No, it's a real Hot Rod"


Rodney Dangerfield syndrome I guess.

[dsraven]

all the stuff that joedoh is talking about is the reason I did a frame swap after spending time and money on the original frame upgrades. like he says, the frame swap isn't the hard part, it is usually dealing with the other repairs on the body that take time. rust repair, wiring, brake lines, fuel system, exhaust, wiring etc.
your truck, your pocketbook and your dream. you decide. do it safely either way and, of course, post pics.

[suburban99]

Here are my other 2 trucks that i have built. Both LS swapped. The K10 was a challenge as it has 4x4 (obviously)..I still own and drive the K10, also still have the original 350/350 the truck came with should I ever sell it. The 62 was pulled from a farmers field and got a 78 front end because it did not have a front suspension. Fab skills and electrical knowledge not a problem. Also have a well equipped shop.

As others have pointed out in Canada parts are at least 100% more by the time you add in exchange and shipping/duty. I live 11 miles from the US border and ship my parts to a PO box and walk across the border to pick up and bring into Canada, but it is still expensive. I will be going with the S10 frame...I picked up an Sonoma today for $100.00, missing the drivers door and no engine..thanks for all the replies and comments.

[MiraclePieCo]

Here's my specific issues with an S10 swap (keep in mind that I've it both ways - stock frame and S10 chassis swap):

1) The majority of them need to run wheel spacers because the S10 track width is too narrow. Sure spacers work, but they're a bandaid solution that annoys my sense of engineering.

2) The S10 steering box interferes with the AD radiator location, forcing one to run a smaller radiator (or run the radiator at an unnatural angle). I have lots more coolant capacity in my stock-frame truck with an original-style radiator than in my S10-frame truck with the typical 19x22 crossflow that most guys use. My S10 truck generally runs cool but will sometimes heat up on a hot day under load. My original radiator truck has trouble getting over 140 degrees!

3) The majority of S10 conversions I've seen (including some very expensive trucks) have an "underbite" appearance because the owner missed getting the wheel wells centered. When one has to figure out the locations for the cab mounts, bed mounts, running board mounts, etc. those little 1/8" mistakes (or failing to compensate for caster) can ultimately cascade into an ugly truck.

4) When one fabricates body mounts, bed mounts, running board mounts, etc the underside of many S10 trucks starts looking like a scrapyard. By the time one welds all those various body component mounts, I suspect the total amount of welding is actually much greater than just welding in an MII front cross-member or a late-model front clip.

5) Aargh, ya gotta cut the front valance sheet metal - a heinous act if yours is pristine! With my stock-frame truck I was very happy to leave all my sheet metal intact.

A local professional hotrod builder has probably done a couple hundred of these trucks. For him, time is money. His preferred way of building AD trucks is to clip the front end (I don't know what clip he prefers). Nowadays S10 frame swaps are trendy, but he tries to talk his customers out of them, due to the extra hours he has to charge for them. But as our OP in this case demonstrated by going against a 7-4 recommendation against S10 swaps, he is seldom successful.

[joedoh]

suburban99 let us know if you have any questions and start a project thread in the project section! best way to keep up.

Originally Posted by Tempest67

funny you say that, "you will never get any respect for it right tempest? haha."


I was at another Cruise night and saw a Patina truck and asked if it was on a S10 frame, and the old fart looked at me and said " No, it's a real Hot Rod"


Rodney Dangerfield syndrome I guess.

at least his was at a show for you to look at, I can respect a guys opinion when he backs it up with some work.

usually when I get shade thrown my way its from guys who havent touched their truck in YEARS telling me what I "shoulda done". dont judge my actions with your intentions, pick up a grinder and get to it!

[_Ogre]

nice trucks suburban99. not everyone has a 100 year old stump in their yard. i toured the pacific northwest (psw to you) a couple years ago, when my son moved to seattle, and was amazed at the huge trees and massive century old stumps out there.

i owned a 63 longbed many years ago, my first of many longbeds. my 58 looks good as a shortbed, but trucks were meant to haul stuff, longbeds haul lots of stuff. my 09 gmc longbed is the ugliest truk i've ever owned and it takes a kmart parking lot to turn around, but it hauls stuff

[_Ogre]

Originally Posted by suburban99

..should I consider retaining the original frame?

don't get your panties in a wad.
i believe suburban99 asked a question
i recommended stock frame, you did not
no hate, just differences of opinion

[mr48chev]

MPC and I run real close to being on the same line on the same page in this thing.

As I have said before I don't have an issue when guys do as Joedoh said he often has done. Start with a cab and no frame and build from there.

I've done the front clip subframe and while the truck drove great and my 51 Merc drove great you end up hacking up the front end inner sheet metal a bunch to get the clip to clear the frame and A arms.

What get my goat and I see it all the time on FB is that a guy buys a real nice running and driving 3100 with a solid frame and drives it home and lifts the body off the chassis to stick it over on a worn out 250 thousand mile S-10 frame that he paid 1000+ for the S=10 paid 1500+ for the kit and then has to spend 500 to 1000 rebuilding the S-10 chassis and then brags how he saved money over buying a decent front and rear suspension kit. Half of those guys get rid of the S-10 rear springs and go to a 4 link and bags anyhow. I saw one guy who had close to 5 K in the S-10 swap including having the frame powder coated.

On the other hand I was out looking at my stuff contemplating what I could do to put together a truck that I can take to Victoria BC next July for an event that I am already registered for. I may end up sticking the less than wonderful 48 Cab on my old frame and doing some repair work to it and putting either the MII or Jag front end I have under it. I know I am not going to have time to build the stretched, chopped and sectioned cab that I want to . An S-10 chassis would be a viable solution on this one.

[suburban99]

Yesterday I was cleaning up some scrap from a few projects and took it into the local scrap buyer. While I was waiting for the scale, a guy I know pulled in behind me with his trailer. I have bought some LS engine cores off Jose in the past..he had an s10 on his trailer. I asked him what he wanted for the s10. He said $100..I said sold... He knew the forklift operator at the yard so he called him over and had him lift it off his trailer and place it on mine. It was meant to be. 1991 extended cab 2wd no motor or tranny..and I got paperwork..

[joedoh]

jeezealou, thats the truck to start with. I just shortened an ext cab the other day for a swap, its easy peasy. took about 2.5 hours start to finish, and the nice things about using an ext cab chassis are:

1. they are easier to find than reg cab long beds
2. when you shorten them you can get the 116 wheelbase and not have abnormal bed/cab gaps or uncentered wheels.
3. you dont have to cut that stupid bumtangle rear cab/front bed mount off the frame
4. you keep all 8 bed mounts AND the spare tire still fits behind the axle, with a rclb you only have 4, the front one is on that bumtangle and the rear one gets cut off and the spare doesnt fit.

you can use the shortbed of the ext cab as the bed floor, if you cut the front wall ~3" high and bend it down and shorten the width to ~51", gives you tubs and a strong steel bed floor with 8 bolts in about 2 hours start to finish.


sorry to gush. if there is any combination of frame or cab or bed length, I have done it

mr48, pick up an s10 and I will send you some 5.25" tall mounts (flat cab floor, no air director trimming, no loss of bed depth.

[suburban99]

joedoh- 117" is what I'll shorten it to. thanks for the pics.
What do you mean by 5.25" mounts...curious.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by suburban99

joedoh- 117" is what I'll shorten it to. thanks for the pics.
What do you mean by 5.25" mounts...curious.

taller mounts let you have a flat cab floor and more bed depth at the expense of more of the center frame hanging below the running boards, in this case about 1.5 inches. shorter mounts set the running boards level with the bottom of the frame so if you bag it, it will lay "all the way out", at the expense of more trimming on the wind deflector, a small trans bump (unless you use a 5.3 with a truck pan, then you will need a BIG trans bump) and a slightly shorter bed depth.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by suburban99

Yesterday I was cleaning up some scrap from a few projects and took it into the local scrap buyer. While I was waiting for the scale, a guy I know pulled in behind me with his trailer. I have bought some LS engine cores off Jose in the past..he had an s10 on his trailer. I asked him what he wanted for the s10. He said $100..I said sold... He knew the forklift operator at the yard so he called him over and had him lift it off his trailer and place it on mine. It was meant to be. 1991 extended cab 2wd no motor or tranny..and I got paperwork..

Hard to beat a deal like that when you get the paperwork with it and from someone you actually know.

Now get a 3 ring binder and some page savers and stick the paper work in th binder so it doesn't get lost. That paper work or a photo copy of that paper work plus the paper work from that same scrap yard when you haul the cab off is absolute proof you legally own that chassis. Even if you have a clear title to th 50 and don't have to have it inspected it may be real valuable to have that proof later and it needs to go with the truck if you decide to sell it.
I'd highly suggest putting any and all documentation on major components such as engine and trans in that binder too. Being able to pull the book out and show that you legally own those pieces may come real handy later.

I know I harp to no end on that but I just read about a guy getting his early Corvette impounded when he took it in for inspection in the state he lives in having bought the car from a dealer in another state and the vin on the frame didn't match the vin on the body or the title.

[suburban99]

The s-10 had 4 engines in the back..i found out when I got it in my shop;0

Up here in BC all vehicles are insured by the provincial government. We really don't have titles. We have a certificate of registration. Any vehicle that has BC plates has insurance as you can't get the plates without paying for the insurance. If you owe money for traffic violations, speeding tickets etc, well they have to be paid as well before you can get insurance and plates. My 72k10 is insured as a modified collector as it has an LS swap. Insurance and plates are $21 per month with a $40,000 value...not to bad IMO.

I have files for all my vehicles..the ones I build and the ones we drive daily. All receipts are saved because if you get your truck totalled or stolen the government sets the value for payout. Now if you have done any work on them you may have a case for high payment, or you can take the government to court (good luck).

My son got rear ended in his Ranger a few years ago, other driver 100% at fault. We were offered $8500 for his truck as it was totaled. I pulled out all the receipts (i had recently installed a new engine) and we ended up settling for $14,700..Up here I keep all my records.