What automatic overdrive are you running behind your Gen 1 small block?

[Onebean]

My Turbo 350 is getting tired, and I'm trying to decide between rebuilding it, or swapping in an overdrive. The advantage of the overdrive is I can make the reared gears a bit deeper for in town fun. The trade off is a goofed up shift pattern on the column. My son's will never know what gear they are in or why it's not moving. Give me your thoughts and experiences.

Onebean

[WhiteCST]

I’ve used a 4l60 with a 350 before. Ran great and didn’t take much to swap. Not to be confused with the 4l60e which would be somewhat difficult to swap. Another cheap option is a 700r4, basically the same as the 4l60.

[72LB]

Originally Posted by WhiteCST

I’ve used a 4l60 with a 350 before. Ran great and didn’t take much to swap. Not to be confused with the 4l60e which would be somewhat difficult to swap. Another cheap option is a 700r4, basically the same as the 4l60.

I'm considering this, what all did you have to do for the swap? I have a th400 and 373's, highway driving is rough.

[Blue GMC]

Originally Posted by 72LB

I'm considering this, what all did you have to do for the swap? I have a th400 and 373's, highway driving is rough.

Try it with 410 in the rear for real fun. Looking to go to a 2004r should be a pretty easy swap and won't have to mess with the drive shaft.

[Kawabuggy]

Guys, please note that both the 700R4/4L60, and the TH200-4R are some of the MOST difficult transmissions to swap into vehicles that were not originally equipped with them. Both of those transmissions require a TV-throttle valve-cable to run properly. That cable, if not installed, and adjusted, correctly will burn your brand new transmission to the ground in under 50 miles. Further, it's not just how the cable is adjusted, the geometry of setting up the cable at the carburetor, or throttle body has to be spot on or total transmission failure will be in your near future. Do some research on this subject BEFORE you jump off into installing one of these transmissions into anything. Here's a guy posting about what is needed to set the TV cable up correctly; http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...o/700R4p1.html

Please note that if you are off on the adjustment, or geometry, the trans is going to melt down requiring repeated rebuilds until you get the adjustment and geometry correct.


The 2004R in stock form is also NOTHING to write home about. Either unit can be built to handle a little power, but by the time you waste thousands of dollars building one of them up you realize that you could have bought a used 4L80E for half the price, and have a transmission that is twice as strong as your 700/2004r could ever dream of being. Even after spending $2500-$4000 building up a 700, it will still be weaker than an all stock 4L80E. 4L80E's can be set up to run without a computer. There are many ways to do it. Or, if your engine produces 300 HP, or less, and you don't plan on running tires larger than 31", and you never plan on towing ANYTHING that weighs more than 2000 lbs., then a 700 might work for you. Might... As you can tell, I'm not a 700 supporter. I've been building transmissions for a living since the early 90's. With all of the other transmissions available to swap in and accomplish your desire to have O/D, and a lower 1st gear ratio, the 700 is the last transmission on the face of the earth that I would be looking at. It was absolute JUNK and even GM dropped it like the turd it was after a short run of only 10 years. Most other good transmissions that GM built ran for significantly longer than that. The 4L80E was built from 1992 through 2007, and was still being installed in GM vehicles long after 2007 until the old inventory finally ran out. Trucks need a truck transmission-in my opinion. Don't put a junk car unit (700r4) into your truck. Find a used 4L80E, and switch it over to run without a computer and you will be super happy. Or, install a stand alone controller-TCI EZ TCU, and have the ability to change shift patterns, and/or timing, and or pressure, at the punch of a few buttons.

There are now stand alone controllers on the market that will allow the installation of the 6L80E's and 6L90E's.. Yeah baby!

[tdangle]

Whatever OD trans you select, you will definitely enjoy it more than the 3 speed especially if you have 3.73 or deeper gears. I did a lot of research and installed mine, had no problem with the TV cable setup or adjustment. Its really not that hard.

[Bigdav160]

700R4 in mine (4x4). Love it. Makes it drive like a modern vehicle.

[jocko]

Originally Posted by Onebean

My Turbo 350 is getting tired, and I'm trying to decide between rebuilding it, or swapping in an overdrive. The advantage of the overdrive is I can make the reared gears a bit deeper for in town fun. The trade off is a goofed up shift pattern on the column. My son's will never know what gear they are in or why it's not moving. Give me your thoughts and experiences.

Onebean

Onebean, you'll find just about everyone has an opinion on O/D transmissions, some much stronger opinions than others. For every guy that swears this or that transmission is junk, ten more will swear it's the best thing since sliced bread.

700R4 is by far the most common swap, though, in bone stock form is not exactly the strongest trans on the planet. Certainly not TH400-level of strength and simplicity. As mentioned above, the TV cable will need to be precisely adjusted to avoid burning up your trans quickly, however, Bowtie Overdrives makes a very simple kit to do this at home (I think they call it TV-Made-EZ, or something like that). Bowtie Overdrives website is a wealth of info. Hundreds of threads on here about how to do the 700 swap if you go that route, as well as the 2004R route. Usually need crossmember relocation, d/s shortening, etc etc.

Since you mentioned the desire to go to a deeper gear for in town fun, well, it sounds like you are gonna run around doing burnouts, so keep this in mind when it comes to the strength of the trans you purchase. 700R4's can be built, and if you're gonna do burnouts, you're gonna need a beefed up one or it won't last. But it's a truck... burnouts?? Throw some wood in the back you'll look just as cool

ALSO - if you are wanting a deeper gear for such antics (I'm just kiddin ya, we've ALL done em, just less and less as we get older, wiser, and cheaper...) keep in mind that if you do an O/D trans swap, you may not even NEED a deeper rear gear to get the off the line performance you seek. Most O/D trans have a notably deeper 1st gear than the TH350. 700R4, for example is 3.06 vs 2.52 in a TH350, so you're going to feel that off the line without touching your rear. So to speak.. Do you know what your current rear end ratio is? Best to know before you leap.

If you put in a 700R4 AND a deeper rear end, you'd likely find that your rpm is thru the roof in a smoky burnout without really moving your car forward much at all, it would be time to shift in about 2 seconds.

Now, you're REALLY not gonna like this, but... my preferred route is a GV over/underdrive. Keep everything stock, buy a shortened driveshaft from the local driveline shop (keep the original since it's EASY to revert to bone stock if you do this mod, and would be nice to not have to buy a new long d/s if you ever go backwards), and enjoy. It provides the overdrive you seek. It will NOT give you a deeper 1st though - it only adds a gear (if you choose to use it beyond just the overdrive function) between 1-2, 2-3, and overdrive from 3. So if your ultimate goal is burnouts, this wouldn't be the approach for you, other than the fact that it's bulletproof. If need a deeper gear today to do a burnout, you'd still need it with this thingy. But it is a primo piece of gear, not cheap either. Figure $3K new. About the price of a well built, stout, o/d trans...

Decisions, decisions.

If you just want to do burnouts, then get a deeper rear.
If you want better highway mileage/hauling, and bulletproof, get a GV o/u.
But, it sounds like you want the best of both worlds, so If you want both, then an O/D trans is probably your quickest route with the least number of changes from stock. Don't skimp on quality and I would not just stuff a junkyard 700R4 in it, it won't last long. 4L80 converted to standalone, or with it's own brain/controller, is a great option, but not inexpensive. 6Ls, bring your checkbook, and your wife's and kids' as well.

EDIT: Oh, btw, they do make replacement shift indicators that will show the O/D detent.

[WhiteCST]

Originally Posted by 72LB

I'm considering this, what all did you have to do for the swap? I have a th400 and 373's, highway driving is rough.

Kawabuggy hits the nail on the head regarding the TV cable. It is VITAL that it is set up correctly. I wouldn’t say it’s the most difficult swap to do, just has some extra steps. Different, cheaper, and simpler than an electronic trans. Also x2 on the 4.10 years for fun, but your 3.73’s will be great as well

[WhiteCST]

I will say though that if you’re planning on any power upgrades a 4l80e will be cheaper in the long run like everyone has said.

[AussieinNC]

If this is a near stock 350, used as a street truck only, you will be fine with a 700R4...but as noted, you will need to set up a TV cable mechanism and get it set right.

Sure you can go the whole hog and install a 6L , but the costs are up there...stand alone controllers are around $800, then the trans itself...say $2000, etc...

200R4 can go in where a T350 comes out with only some small changes...but again, you will need to setup a TV cable system...

Just do your research, count your pennies and keep us up to date...

[HO455]

If you are planning to tow anything then forget the 2004r. Otherwise a its good transmission, but it won't tolerate towing.

[HO455]

Originally Posted by Kawabuggy

Guys, please note that both the 700R4/4L60, and the TH200-4R are some of the MOST difficult transmissions to swap into vehicles that were not originally equipped with them. Both of those transmissions require a TV-throttle valve-cable to run properly. That cable, if not installed, and adjusted, correctly will burn your brand new transmission to the ground in under 50 miles. Further, it's not just how the cable is adjusted, the geometry of setting up the cable at the carburetor, or throttle body has to be spot on or total transmission failure will be in your near future. Do some research on this subject BEFORE you jump off into installing one of these transmissions into anything. Here's a guy posting about what is needed to set the TV cable up correctly; http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...o/700R4p1.html

Please note that if you are off on the adjustment, or geometry, the trans is going to melt down requiring repeated rebuilds until you get the adjustment and geometry correct.


The 2004R in stock form is also NOTHING to write home about. Either unit can be built to handle a little power, but by the time you waste thousands of dollars building one of them up you realize that you could have bought a used 4L80E for half the price, and have a transmission that is twice as strong as your 700/2004r could ever dream of being. Even after spending $2500-$4000 building up a 700, it will still be weaker than an all stock 4L80E. 4L80E's can be set up to run without a computer. There are many ways to do it. Or, if your engine produces 300 HP, or less, and you don't plan on running tires larger than 31", and you never plan on towing ANYTHING that weighs more than 2000 lbs., then a 700 might work for you. Might... As you can tell, I'm not a 700 supporter. I've been building transmissions for a living since the early 90's. With all of the other transmissions available to swap in and accomplish your desire to have O/D, and a lower 1st gear ratio, the 700 is the last transmission on the face of the earth that I would be looking at. It was absolute JUNK and even GM dropped it like the turd it was after a short run of only 10 years. Most other good transmissions that GM built ran for significantly longer than that. The 4L80E was built from 1992 through 2007, and was still being installed in GM vehicles long after 2007 until the old inventory finally ran out. Trucks need a truck transmission-in my opinion. Don't put a junk car unit (700r4) into your truck. Find a used 4L80E, and switch it over to run without a computer and you will be super happy. Or, install a stand alone controller-TCI EZ TCU, and have the ability to change shift patterns, and/or timing, and or pressure, at the punch of a few buttons.

There are now stand alone controllers on the market that will allow the installation of the 6L80E's and 6L90E's.. Yeah baby!

Please be more specific! You say that a 4L80 can be converted to run without a computer. But the only information I can find on the interweb about this involves making it into a MANUAL transmission. Please explain how you do a noncomputer automatic with a quadrajet carburetor?

[rjs53]

I had up until this summer a 67 Chevelle . It started out with a ZZ4 that I did a cam change angle milled the heads. At the 4000 Ft level it ran 12.60's all day with a 700 non lockup, and 9" convertor. I used a lokar cable and bracket. When it was wide open the cable had no slack. I got 300+ 1/4 mile passes and then stepped up to a 396 small block running 11.30's. The trans finally started slipping from 2nd to 3rd when I was taking friends for rides one day, and everyone wanted to see how long a burnout we could do without using the brake. I still have it, thinking about rebuilding it and putting it behind the same motor and going again, only in my truck. I had a 4.11 gear, this thing would shift so fast most people couldn't tell when it went 1st to 2nd

[WorkinLonghorn]

I vote to just repair the 350 and be done with it. -BA

[67 chevelle]

With alot of experience with the 2004r , I agree with the above statement , get a 4l80 and a computer to run it , no problems , your best bet IMO , the new 4l75s may be good , but stock 4l60s are fairly week also

[jjzepplin]

406 built-700r4 built (BY ME)-4.10 posi 4x4. 18 years now and still going strong. Tows nice, 4x4s nice, burnouts are nice. Oh and the lockup is nice for those long trips from California to Florida. Lots of opinions here. But this is my real time experience. You will have to take into account your mechanical abilities-time constraints-and budget. If you build your tranny for a specific purpose and take your time, the payoff can last for decades!

[Onebean]

Thank you to everyone for the helpful comments and suggestions. You have given me a lot to consider. For the folks running overdrive transmissions, how does it work with a column shifter? Is the drive position still the drive, but you only have manual access to gears 3 and 2, not 1?

Onebean

[jjzepplin]

It's been a long time but I remember notching my column where the detents are and making one more for the 1st gear. I recently bought a tilt column and will be modifying that one in the same manner. They make a new lens for the indicator with D321 which I already have. So to answer- drive is drive but right now 2 is 3rd - 1 is 2nd and no mans land is first. All the rest is the same. 700r4 anyway.

[Daves70]

I have a 700/r4 behind a 408 smallblock. The engine is probably in the 480 to 500hp range. The pair have been in my truck for probably 15000 miles now and the engine could use a freshioning up but the transmission has held up surprisingly well. It has the monster in a box trans kit in it and a corvette servo with a 2800ish stall lock up converter. I had the guy who built the trans set up the tv cable and it shifts great. As most have said on here they are weak in stock form but are pretty good when built and set up right. As for your shift indicator all of the venders carry overdrive indicator lenses to address that minor issue.

[colgad]

Had a 200r4 in my 67 for a while but went back to manual but as it has been said before easy replacement for a 350 auto. My 200r4 worked great I had it built to handle 400+hp with a 2500 stall, never any issues.

[stsalvage]

Originally Posted by Kawabuggy

Guys, please note that both the 700R4/4L60, and the TH200-4R are some of the MOST difficult transmissions to swap into vehicles that were not originally equipped with them. Both of those transmissions require a TV-throttle valve-cable to run properly. That cable, if not installed, and adjusted, correctly will burn your brand new transmission to the ground in under 50 miles. Further, it's not just how the cable is adjusted, the geometry of setting up the cable at the carburetor, or throttle body has to be spot on or total transmission failure will be in your near future. Do some research on this subject BEFORE you jump off into installing one of these transmissions into anything. Here's a guy posting about what is needed to set the TV cable up correctly; http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...o/700R4p1.html

Please note that if you are off on the adjustment, or geometry, the trans is going to melt down requiring repeated rebuilds until you get the adjustment and geometry correct.


The 2004R in stock form is also NOTHING to write home about. Either unit can be built to handle a little power, but by the time you waste thousands of dollars building one of them up you realize that you could have bought a used 4L80E for half the price, and have a transmission that is twice as strong as your 700/2004r could ever dream of being. Even after spending $2500-$4000 building up a 700, it will still be weaker than an all stock 4L80E. 4L80E's can be set up to run without a computer. There are many ways to do it. Or, if your engine produces 300 HP, or less, and you don't plan on running tires larger than 31", and you never plan on towing ANYTHING that weighs more than 2000 lbs., then a 700 might work for you. Might... As you can tell, I'm not a 700 supporter. I've been building transmissions for a living since the early 90's. With all of the other transmissions available to swap in and accomplish your desire to have O/D, and a lower 1st gear ratio, the 700 is the last transmission on the face of the earth that I would be looking at. It was absolute JUNK and even GM dropped it like the turd it was after a short run of only 10 years. Most other good transmissions that GM built ran for significantly longer than that. The 4L80E was built from 1992 through 2007, and was still being installed in GM vehicles long after 2007 until the old inventory finally ran out. Trucks need a truck transmission-in my opinion. Don't put a junk car unit (700r4) into your truck. Find a used 4L80E, and switch it over to run without a computer and you will be super happy. Or, install a stand alone controller-TCI EZ TCU, and have the ability to change shift patterns, and/or timing, and or pressure, at the punch of a few buttons.

There are now stand alone controllers on the market that will allow the installation of the 6L80E's and 6L90E's.. Yeah baby!

This man is so Right.A bullet proof Transmission.The 4L80E is the same size as the factory th400.The holes are already in the frame for the cross member The drive shaft dose not need to be cut down Not sure on the yoke.If it needs to be changed.But the 4L80E will fit in all are trucks the 1960-66 might have to have some mods to the tunnel housing seem But it will fit but tight.

I own 3 3/4 ton trucks from 1964--72 and I'm really looking to swap over the the 4L80E to just knock down the High rpm's in my final Gear when on the freeway.Plus the 4l80E is a pulling transmission for heavy loads

.Forget the 4l60E that have there own problems an a lot more modifications that need to be done

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Kawabuggy

Gthe TH200-4R are some of the MOST difficult transmissions to swap into vehicles that were not originally equipped with them.

I have to take =some= issue with this statement. Since the 200-4R is the same overall length as the TH350/Powerglide and can often be mounted as easily as by flipping the trans mount around, I found it a very easy install.

Once you need to start shortening driveshafts and getting them balanced and phased and all of that it gets harder, but you have none of that with the 200-4R.

You're spot on that the TV cable must be adjusted properly, but I'm not a rocket scientist and I've never had a problem doing so. You have to respect it and take it seriously, as it is NOT just a kickdown.

The 200-4R is somewhat weak sauce in stock form, but if I understand correctly, is stronger than the 700 once built similarly. I ran one in a 4200lb car with 600lbft big block and a converter and drag radials and it hooked and ran 12s for years!

[morepwr]

Bowtie Overdrives sells a kit for the TV cable on the 700R's that makes the hook up and geometry correct and they have them for most all of the common carbs like a Q-jet, Holley, E-brock, etc. I used the cable kit on a swap I did and it was pretty straight forward and easy to use.

[Kawabuggy]

To the guy above that asked how to set up the 80E's to shift-you are correct, Trans-Go makes a shift kit called the 4L80E-3 Stick shift, that makes the trans a full manual affair. Whatever position you put the shifter in, that's the gear the trans will be in. Not fun having to always upshift, and downshift for every gear change that is needed. But, it is effective. Jakes transmission is also now selling a gadget (I say gadget because I have no first hand experience with it personally) that will do the same thing but with significantly less work than installing the Stick Shift Trans-Go kit. In the end, I always recommend that a customer run a stand alone controller as it just makes it so much more practical. Here's a link to the Jakes piece; https://shop.jakesperformance.com/sh...al-control-box

In regards to the TV cable on the 700's... If my only goal was to make the OP aware of how critical the TV cable is-WE, all of us together-have surely done that now. Goal achieved!

As DaveP notes... If someone is going through the trouble of swapping over transmissions and you have to rework the cooler lines, the driveshaft length, shift cable bracket and or gear position lens... if you are doing all of those things anyway, then a stand alone controller and an 80E is just a little more work.

It sounds like there are some proponents of the 700R transmission here. I won't begrudge you for your choices. I know that many of you will run them for years & years and never have issue with them. My career is different. I ONLY see the broken down units EVERY SINGLE day of the year.. So, my opinion is definitely skewed. Maybe for each broken unit I see, there are 10,000 that are running along just fine without issue. I don't know that though.. I only know what I see on the bench each day and 700's...... well....... It's just not something that I would ever consider utilizing in any vehicle that I personally own.

I should post up some pics of what happens when a reverse input drum splays out the tabs and cuts the case in half from the inside out... To say that it is an explosive event is an understatement. I had a customer bring me a trans that did just that and the explosion severed the fuel lines where they pass the trans, and also chunks of the transmissions guts almost penetrated the underside of the customers vehicle. This was not a unit that I built.. It was a "home build" using the Monster in your wallet, er, I mean "box". Granted, the guy set the shifts up to be too hard and this is what splays out the tabs on the reverse input drum... But, have you ever seen that happen on a 4L80E, or TH-400? I have not. For this reason alone, BOTH Chevy trucks in my household have 4L80E's in them. If you are going to do it.... Do it once... Do it right... It's what my daddy always told me. I want the BEST transmission GM ever made under my truck, and I have it!

My shop has installed 80E's into almost every Chevrolet product, some Fords, International Harvester, Range Rovers, 1st Gen Camaros, Chevelles, Nova's, Impalas, Ford Mustangs, Ford F-150's, Toyota Land Cruisers, Model T (with big block chevy!), and hundreds of other vehicles that I can't remember right now. The hardest swap we have ever done was putting an 80E into a 1980 Chevrolet Corvette. Parking brake bracket on the cross-member, and fiberglass body that you CANNOT massage for fitment. We did it. It took a while, but we did it. The Corvette had a 700 that was supposedly "built" (as it relates to transmissions, what does that [I]really[I] mean?) by a well-known, reputable builder/company that did not last 2 months.This was a $3400 transmission. Broken output shaft the first time. That's how I came to know the customer. He brought me the trans and asked me to replace the O/P shaft so that he did not have to ship it all the way back.. He then broke the turbine shaft right above the sealing ring lands.. After that, he pitched the 700 and we put an 80E into it. That was 4 years ago now and we have not had to touch it since that day. Like I mentioned before.. For every person that has no problems with a 700, there could be 10,000 that have had them fail.. Oh wait, I reversed it didn't I? I'll let you guys decide which way the equation rings truest.