S10 or other frame "swaps", why do this? Pros-cons

[gale]

I cast another vote for stock frame. Until recently my '54 3100 was a daily driver. It's now completely disassembled with the cab on a rotisserie I fabricated. When I'm back on the road with this one it will have no rust, beautiful paint, comfortable seat, and AC. A 350/350 was put in it years ago and I'll completely rework the mounting.

I shop for old AD trucks pretty often and if it doesn't still have the old solid axle I move on to the next one.

There's a lot to be said for driving something that makes people turn and look or wave. I also ride old Triumph and old BMW motorcycles.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 99monte

I am so totally undecided about whether or not to do a frame/chassis swap after reading this thread.I have a Canadian 1300 52 chev(complete) in my back yard + 2 49 2 ton potential cabs, and 2 s10 potential donors.I need to narrow down my expectations and make a decision and go for it.I live in the north where you spend an arm and a leg to get anything shipped to you.

You may have the perfect reasons to do the "swap". But you won't make this decision without a lot of good info. When you do what ever you do hopefully it WILL be the right thing for you instead of blowing with the wind.

Brian

[99monte]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

You may have the perfect reasons to do the "swap". But you won't make this decision without a lot of good info. When you do what ever you do hopefully it WILL be the right thing for you instead of blowing with the wind.

Brian

Thanks, Brian,that's why I like this network- so much SO much good informationhttp://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/images/smilies/metal.gif

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 99monte

Thanks, Brian,that's why I like this network- so much SO much good information http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/i...lies/metal.gif

Exactly, that's why I wanted to start this thread.

Brian

[stewdecky]

Ok. I had an 3/4 ton lumber wagon that I drove for a couple of years The rear end shot craps, needed kingpins etc, 50 MPH tops on the highway. Looking for options. Checked into all the normal stuff. Looked at buying advanced design kit....too much money. Rear end and mustang II too much money. Dove into (with some worries) a s-10 swap. With all the good posts on this site it made it relativaly easy. Just folowed along with everyone else doing basically the same thing. Did it with High School kids in the school shop as a class project. Couldn't have went smoother. If building a show truck you might have issues with the body gaps but i found it wasn't that difficult to line up the front end after the cab was on the frame. Spent around $3000 on parts. I love driving it. I would do it again in a heartbeat. If i had a 1/2 ton driver quality i would probably think differently but with what I had it worked great. Just saying to each his own and do what you want with your ride.

[1project2many]

I'm not for or against a frame swap. I know how big the job is. I also remember being young and inexperienced and thinking I was going to take a very rough truck and turn it into a gem in one weekend. And I remember a mentor laughing himself silly when I said this. Many years later it took me 36 months to turn a much nicer truck into something really pretty that is mostly stock.

With the 'frame swap' you get a MATCHING modern suspension

The s10 front suspension is 36 years old. It was originally released in 1978 with the A and G body cars. The rear suspension is solid axle and leaves... same as what's under the 40's and '50s vehicle. It was designed to ride smoothly and understeer in corners rather than grip or grab. So is it modern? Well, there are plenty of articles and parts to update that old G body design. Longer upper control arms combined with taller spindles, larger brakes, and large sway bars will actually make it behave like the modern suspension you want it to be. Add tubular lower arms, better springs, polyurethane bushings, and some good bracing and it just might feel like something designed in this century. Just please, don't fall for the idea that an independent suspension is inherently better.

When planning a build don't forget the driving habits of people in your area. Driving an oldie can be fun but driving with others can be frustrating. Around here traffic likes to start and stop quickly, race from in back of an oldie and cut them off in the front. I'm considering adding power brakes and steering to my nearly stock '57 just so I don't have to fight as much in traffic.

One other thing... for many years I was on the crew of, then was crew chief for, a vintage race car with leaves on all four corners, solid axles front and rear, and drums at each wheel. We could set that car up for a track and many times make it run with the indie sprung chassis. I'll admit there are plenty of tradeoffs with a solid axle suspension but I think most people give up on it long before they've ever tried to extract any performance from it.

[D-man313]

I vote for the s10 swap, i did one and if i do another one it would be on a s10 frame.

1) I bought a complete s10 for $250. Stripped it, and sold or scrapped everything i didnt need. I eneded up with a bare frame. I actually made money by selling parts off.

2) IFS without spending money on a mustang 2 and spending the time figuring out where to weld it in.

3) Buy sbc mounts for a s10 frame, make a trans mount. I didnt have to modify my firewall. I made a trans tunnel but thats because of how low my truck is on the frame. Some cab and bed mounts. Took some thinking on a radiator support but in a weekend that was figured out.

4) Every parts store across the country has s10 parts.

5) same bolt pattern for wheels front and back. Same lug thread size front and back.

Some basic fab work, and its not too bad.

This was my dad and I first build ever, first truck at 14 for me. When theres no snow i drive the truck everyday. And that was my expectation. I have $200 in lowering stuff to get my truck sitting the way i wanted.

To me the s10 is cheaper and easier than rebuilding the stock stuff or adding mustang 2.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by 1project2many

I'm not for or against a frame swap. I know how big the job is. I also remember being young and inexperienced and thinking I was going to take a very rough truck and turn it into a gem in one weekend. And I remember a mentor laughing himself silly when I said this. Many years later it took me 36 months to turn a much nicer truck into something really pretty that is mostly stock.


The s10 front suspension is 36 years old. It was originally released in 1978 with the A and G body cars. The rear suspension is solid axle and leaves... same as what's under the 40's and '50s vehicle. It was designed to ride smoothly and understeer in corners rather than grip or grab. So is it modern? Well, there are plenty of articles and parts to update that old G body design. Longer upper control arms combined with taller spindles, larger brakes, and large sway bars will actually make it behave like the modern suspension you want it to be. Add tubular lower arms, better springs, polyurethane bushings, and some good bracing and it just might feel like something designed in this century. Just please, don't fall for the idea that an independent suspension is inherently better.

When planning a build don't forget the driving habits of people in your area. Driving an oldie can be fun but driving with others can be frustrating. Around here traffic likes to start and stop quickly, race from in back of an oldie and cut them off in the front. I'm considering adding power brakes and steering to my nearly stock '57 just so I don't have to fight as much in traffic.

One other thing... for many years I was on the crew of, then was crew chief for, a vintage race car with leaves on all four corners, solid axles front and rear, and drums at each wheel. We could set that car up for a track and many times make it run with the indie sprung chassis. I'll admit there are plenty of tradeoffs with a solid axle suspension but I think most people give up on it long before they've ever tried to extract any performance from it.

I have done a fair share of study on the subject of traffic. We are talking keeping logs on traffic light time and amount of lights, time on trips that sort of thing. If there is one thing I have found it's DO NOT let the other cars tell you how to drive! You sit back and let the other drivers perform for you! It's like a circus out there and you can sit back and let that guy go around you, he is NOT going to get where he is going faster than you are! Those are the facts in the studies I have done. You can't drive faster than the lights, and you can't drive faster than traffic, period. You are in a "mass" out there, the poor slob speeding past you to blow thru the light is no more likely to arrive more than a few seconds before you than your front bumper has of arriving a few seconds ahead of your rear bumper, it's a MAS and that is something that just escapes the mind of the average driver. And believe me I know because I use to think the same thing.

When I present my studies to people I will often have them scoff at them, I am nuts, I obviously didn't do it right, or I didn't do it on their street or in their town or what ever, it is OBVIOUSLY different THERE. LOL Then they do a little study of their own to find out I am right and their town is in another state is just like mine.

For instance, how many stop lights do I go thru (both red and green) in a week driving 5.5 miles each way to work 5 days and around town a little on weekends or a run to the store or something? How about 170 lights, 170! So what in the heck is getting thru THIS yellow light by punching it to the floor going to get me? One less than 170! LOL How long do you think I am stopped at the average light? When I ask people this I will always get 2-5 minutes rarely does anyone say any less. You know how long, how about 30 seconds! It averaged out to 30 seconds! A guy here at work just about called me a liar until the next day when he came up to me to tell me he found the same results! LOL We have such a twisted image of time. Sit back, relax and drive the way you want to, leave lots of room and watch the cars around you. They will all be going the same speed. That car in front of you ten car lengths away is going the same speed as you, why would you need to be one car length off his back bumper like everyone else is doing? We are talking a few seconds here, drive the way you want to and you will soon see it isn't a big deal. And those who want to go around you just don't get it, they don't get it.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by D-man313

I vote for the s10 swap, i did one and if i do another one it would be on a s10 frame.

1) I bought a complete s10 for $250. Stripped it, and sold or scrapped everything i didnt need. I eneded up with a bare frame. I actually made money by selling parts off.

2) IFS without spending money on a mustang 2 and spending the time figuring out where to weld it in.

3) Buy sbc mounts for a s10 frame, make a trans mount. I didnt have to modify my firewall. I made a trans tunnel but thats because of how low my truck is on the frame. Some cab and bed mounts. Took some thinking on a radiator support but in a weekend that was figured out.

4) Every parts store across the country has s10 parts.

5) same bolt pattern for wheels front and back. Same lug thread size front and back.

Some basic fab work, and its not too bad.

This was my dad and I first build ever, first truck at 14 for me. When theres no snow i drive the truck everyday. And that was my expectation. I have $200 in lowering stuff to get my truck sitting the way i wanted.

To me the s10 is cheaper and easier than rebuilding the stock stuff or adding mustang 2.

It does sound like it worked for you. But let me ask you, have you ever done one of these trucks with a Mustang II and changing the rear springs and such? If you haven't you can't compare them.

But that being said, your project sounds like it worked well for you.

Brian

[D-man313]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

It does sound like it worked for you. But let me ask you, have you ever done one of these trucks with a Mustang II and changing the rear springs and such? If you haven't you can't compare them.

But that being said, your project sounds like it worked well for you.

Brian

I did not, but a buddy did his that way before i started mine. Seeing his first hand is what steered me to the s10 route.

David

[gale]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

And those who want to go around you just don't get it, they don't get it.

Brian

I did a similar study in the '70s and came up with the same results.

I also took several trips across I-10 from California to Texas at the Louisiana border at a time when the speed limit was 55. I was pulling a 30' trailer and obeyed the speed limit. In all of these trips there were several cars that zipped by me as many as 6 times in the same day. It got to where I honked and waved when they went by.

I wrote an article for a magazine about a similar "race" on the 405 across Los Angeles.

I suppose it makes some feel better to think they are in the lead but at day's end I'm calm and relaxed.

[Clay54]

I wanna do it cause I think I can. I'm gonna do it cause I know I can. When I finish, I will have a 54 Chevy S10 and I plan to drive the tires off it. Clay

[runpasthefence]

1950 AD on a 1969 C-10 frame

Why:
My C-10 body was absolute ****. Drip rail, rockers, corners, firewall, floor, bed, everything was cancerous. I was in the market for a C-10 donor body when I happened upon an AD body in great shape with original drivetrain and suspension.
My C-10 frame was already converted to disc brakes, was notched, bagged, new trailing arms, panhard, all that stuff. It also already had an LQ9 and 4L80 strapped into it. I figured, rather than sell the frame and take the depreciated hit on all of the aftermarket stuff that I'd just put back on an AD frame, I'd just just do a body swap.

How's it going?
Well, it's been a pain. I expected that. The only real issue I hit was track width up front, but a custom set of steel wheels and narrowed A-arms solved that problem. I'd probably be finished if it weren't for my painter and a ****ty mail-order tune. Cab mounts were a breeze, and the 12 bolt that was in my C-10 is absolutely perfect in terms of width.

Do you regret it?
Not at this point. I considered buying the AD frame that I'd sold when I saw how far off the track width was, but now it's no biggie.

Would I recommend someone else do it?
Not unless you're in a similar situation where you have a C-10 frame you've already dumped money into. If I were starting with an AD only, I'd absolutely use whatever aftermarket parts that are available to the AD frame, box it in, and rock an roll. Also, this will be a daily driver, so I'm not as concerned getting really tight gaps as others might be. This will be used as truck; it'll haul ****, tow stuff, and go really fast. That's my main goal, so it's working out for me.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by gale

I did a similar study in the '70s and came up with the same results.

I also took several trips across I-10 from California to Texas at the Louisiana border at a time when the speed limit was 55. I was pulling a 30' trailer and obeyed the speed limit. In all of these trips there were several cars that zipped by me as many as 6 times in the same day. It got to where I honked and waved when they went by.

I wrote an article for a magazine about a similar "race" on the 405 across Los Angeles.

I suppose it makes some feel better to think they are in the lead but at day's end I'm calm and relaxed.

I am fascinated every day watching people do things that I use to do. It is so OBVIOUSLY ignorant but we just don't see it unless we stop and open our eyes.

I just learned a new one that is hilarious, when motorcycles split lanes and go up to the front of the stop light. They do this at every light yet they are stopping at the lights and thus they aren't going any faster than the mom in her mini van! LOL But they sure FEEL like they are going faster.
Like I said, it's amazing, it is utterly amazing that once you stop and look at this it is so clear, a three year old can see that you aren't going any faster!

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by runpasthefence

1950 AD on a 1969 C-10 frame

Why:
My C-10 body was absolute ****. Drip rail, rockers, corners, firewall, floor, bed, everything was cancerous. I was in the market for a C-10 donor body when I happened upon an AD body in great shape with original drivetrain and suspension.
My C-10 frame was already converted to disc brakes, was notched, bagged, new trailing arms, panhard, all that stuff. It also already had an LQ9 and 4L80 strapped into it. I figured, rather than sell the frame and take the depreciated hit on all of the aftermarket stuff that I'd just put back on an AD frame, I'd just just do a body swap.

How's it going?
Well, it's been a pain. I expected that. The only real issue I hit was track width up front, but a custom set of steel wheels and narrowed A-arms solved that problem. I'd probably be finished if it weren't for my painter and a ****ty mail-order tune. Cab mounts were a breeze, and the 12 bolt that was in my C-10 is absolutely perfect in terms of width.

Do you regret it?
Not at this point. I considered buying the AD frame that I'd sold when I saw how far off the track width was, but now it's no biggie.

Would I recommend someone else do it?
Not unless you're in a similar situation where you have a C-10 frame you've already dumped money into. If I were starting with an AD only, I'd absolutely use whatever aftermarket parts that are available to the AD frame, box it in, and rock an roll. Also, this will be a daily driver, so I'm not as concerned getting really tight gaps as others might be. This will be used as truck; it'll haul ****, tow stuff, and go really fast. That's my main goal, so it's working out for me.

There is sometimes a good reason, the thing is it simply is usually looked at as the only way. For instance, you could have sold that C-10 Chassis and been way ahead on the other AD chassis. Or you could have had a very hard time selling it and it did not good at all. There are many different options we need to explore.

And with towing stuff, that is a big reason right there. If you have a large trailer to tow the later model chassis is the way to go.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Clay54

I wanna do it cause I think I can. I'm gonna do it cause I know I can. When I finish, I will have a 54 Chevy S10 and I plan to drive the tires off it. Clay

How do you plan on driving it?

I drive this car every single day, rain, sun, (no snow sorry).

It's got a 196 CI flathead motor, points, a carburator, a generator for goodness sakes.
That hole you see with the stud on each side is where the carb bolts down.







It's stone stock with the three speed on the column and all.

Sure if I need to go a hundred miles or something I take my other old car, a 1965 Buick. Outside of the quick ratio steering box out of a 72 GS and 70 disc brakes it is just as it rolled off the assembly line in 1965 motor and all. Who needs late model stuff?



So, I drive these old cars every single day, why, because I want to.

This is my point on this whole thread. If you WANT a new car that is fine, it's our choice. But when someone says they NEED a new car because their old car needs some work and the gas milage is poor and all that. I have to say, you WANT a new car, you don't NEED a new car! With the difference in what you are paying for that new car you could drive a friggin blown big block Chevelle that gets 10 miles to the gallon for decades, you could rebuild the engine and do the brakes and put new tires on it and not put a frigging dent in what the new car costs, no you don't NEED a new car, you WANT it, and that is fine, there is nothing wrong with that.

Like these frame swaps, very few NEED all the late model stuff, they WANT it, and that is fine. As long as we all know the reason we are building what we are building.

So often I see people talking about it like they NEED it, and it's simply not the case in a huge majority of these builds.

Just think about it, there are many people who have contributed to this thread with their opinions on using one or not. All are quality contributions to the subject.

Brian

[iowaboynca]

My take is deal with the resources you have.

I'm a "new" guy that hasn't tackled something this big in awhile. But I'd like to think I'm realistic. Heck the day I brought "her" home, i told my wife that it would probably be 4 years before it would see the road, given "life getting in the way".

My scope: some what resto-mod...i want to try to take the best of both worlds. I wanted something with a little more scoot than the 235 but nothing too over the top. At the same time give homage to when the truck was built and try to keep things somewhat original when warranted (gauges, steering wheel, etc)

So when it came down to it time to pick a direction i really thought i was going to do an S10 frame due to all the Pros called out above (with props to Bartman and 99 to Life). But as I started my search, the guys here in the central valley of CA all thought their frames were worth gold, at least that how much they wanted to charge for them. Plus, all the S10s around here are extended cabs, not too many standard long beds.

So walking around the Fall Turlock swap meet last year, I came to the conclusion of "I don't know what I'm doing..." What I mean is I really need to narrow down what direction to go in and figure out the the limiting factor was and start there. So after some root cause analysis, every thing came down to what rear end i wanted to use (either decision was going to require a new rear). So either a s10 out of 4x4 or the f*rd 8.8. I went with the f*rd 8.8 due to availability. Long story short, this is going to drive me more toward an IFS for the simplicity of keeping the same bolt pattern and given the frames I have to work with (s10 X cab). I honestly believe the work load would be the same as setting up an IFS as compared to the X cab frame set up.

BUT...i can honestly say that if my frame was shot, i would probably go the s10 route because that what the resources at hand would have directed me to .

[MARTINSR]

I got a nice frame a couple of years ago from a guy in Grass Valley, I think I paid $150 but I don't remember for sure.

Brian

[1project2many]

Sit back, relax and drive the way you want to, leave lots of room and watch the cars around you. They will all be going the same speed.

We're looking at this from different perspectives. My recommendation is not about building the vehicle to drive like the crazies. My recommendation is to build the vehicle to respond safely when the crazies do what they do best. Manual drum brakes and manual steering are great when you and the vehicle have time to respond. But what about the little Honda driver that pulls up to an intersection with a stop sign facing them, stares right at you, then pulls out in front of you and stops dead. I've had it happen. Or how about when you're gently stopping at a light, there are several cars in front already stopped, and that schmoe in the blue BMW decides that the distance between your vehicle and the row of cars is more than ample for him to pull in and cut you off? All of a sudden you need half of the stopping distance and time you had available. I made it, barely. How about when you're driving 65 on the freeway when everyone else is doing 70-75, because you're letting people go around you, and that guy in the breakdown lane pulls out in front of you with nowhere enough distance between you and he, then proceeds to accelerate at a rate rivaling the fastest snail. Yep... that's happened, too. When I (and my truck) lived in Montana I would have never considered power brakes and steering. Here on the east coast it's a different story.

This is my point on this whole thread. If you WANT a new car that is fine, it's our choice. But when someone says they NEED a new car because their old car needs some work and the gas milage is poor and all that. I have to say, you WANT a new car, you don't NEED a new car!

Remember that you are applying rational thought to a situation that's fueled by a passion. Building / restoring these trucks is a labor of love for most involved. If you are rational enough to evaluate your build, can quantify the expected outcomes, and can plan accordingly then you are luckier than the majority. The rest of the population will get an idea for exactly the reasons you argue against; because it's cool, or it's new, or they saw it in a magazine. They will justify their decision by citing whatever quality, feature, or characteristic seems to fit the situation best. I think this thread is good for those who realize they're bound by practical limitations when they start dreaming of a finished project and I hope it gathers plenty of stories to clearly illustrate what's truly involved in this swap.

[MARTINSR]

Remember I am driving in the SF bay area, it's as crazy as you get. And yes I have driven in the east coast, From Boston to DC. I drive my Rambler with 9" drum brakes and a single reservoir master cyl under the floor boards. I don't have a single problem with the crazies. I allow enough room where they put the show on for me and I have plenty of time to change my seat or get pop corn without an issue. You aren't allowing enough room and watching ahead anticipating what they are going to do. I had a guy pull from the left hand lane across in front of me to pull into a gas station about a year ago where I literally had to "Lock them up". That was the only time in years that I remember anything of the sort.

If you leave enough room be it going 65 or 35 it doesn't matter what the other drivers do. You will always have time to react without an incident if you allow enough room. It's been a big change in how I drive over the past few years, it takes a lot to do it after driving like a crazy, but I don't have a single problem out there. It's like I am on the road by myself.

You are very right on the passion and lack of rational thought on this stuff. I mean, who rationally thinks to chop the top and section the body of their truck like I am so it's harder to get in? Or put perfect wood and paint in the bed and it can't be used as the TRUCK it is? You are right, LOL you are right. But that is where I hoped to bring this very important decision a little more thought, that is what this thread is about. If we put a little thought into every change on our trucks we will make a better truck.

These body mods I am making, they included rolling it out side and taking a good look at it from a distance, from different angles. To insure it is what I was after. That's all we are talking about here, stand back and take a good look at the frame swap idea and see if it really is right for you. Thank you for your perspective on it.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

I want to make something clear, it sounds like I have adjusted my driving habits for these old cars, that I had to make this change and drive "like an old man" because of these old cars, that is NOT the case. I started driving this way while studying "Hypermiling" to save fuel in my late model computer controlled double over head cam four valves per cyl hot rod that I use to drive. It was a Ford Taurus SHO with four wheel disc brakes that handled like a go cart.

But to save fuel I started studying hypermiling and found that I increased my fuel economy by 20% JUST with driving habits. http://ecomodder.com/

The side affect was that I also learned that driving faster, closer, pushing stop lights did NOT get me there any faster on average. So with this knowledge I have totally changed my driving habits for the better and have no problems with other drivers, they do pay the same registration and taxes as I do and have the right to the road too. So I drive and let them do what ever they want without affecting me in the least.

Brian

[whitedog76]

I'm not a big fan of the S10 swaps either. I don't necesarilly see the advantage either. If you want a classic truck with all the bells and whistles, there's plenty of them built from the late 50's to the present that will fill that void.

It seems like way too much work to discard a perfectly good frame and drivetrain for very little reward. There's tons of suspension kits and drivetrains mods out there, that don't require removing the chassis. Not to mention, the S10 frame and suspension isn't that stout to begin with.

[Clay54]

Brian, you ask how am I going to drive it? Well, when my truck is taged and certified safe by the state of Texas, I will drive it to Wal Mart for groceries, Lowes/Home Depot for a load of lumber, the doctors office etc. Take a 400 mile round trip to check on the farm in Lubbock. Go to Houston/San Antonio/Arlington and Huntsville to see the kids. And if the mood strikes me right, I might just drive it to San Francisco just to see if I can.

My '54 truck didn't come out of a barn find, I bought it in 1969 off a Chevy used car lot in Robstown, Texas. Gave $500.00 for it. It had a 1949 Cadillac engine, transmission, and rear end. AC, power brakes, power steering. windshield washers, tank to hold vacuum to keep the wipers going during acceleration. The transmission back then was a 4 speed and with reverse and park in the same position - all the way down. I drove that truck until 1979 when I had to put it on blocks because the power steering went out and I was broke and could not fix it.

Again, I wanna do it cause I can and I think this will be the easiest with the least amount of money to get back on the road before I get too old.

Clay

[MARTINSR]

We are just talking my opinion here, but with the way you plan on driving it I would say you are a good candidate for the late frame. But it sure isn't the only way, I would still think about a front frame clip as a solution. I am not big on them either but an 80ish Malibu front clip can work pretty good with a lot less work. And the end result is exactly the same suspension quality as the S10 chassis.

Don't go with the Camaro as they are too wide. But if it's not too low that can work too, just don't plan on too wide a tire.

Funny how we can see things so different. I am putting my truck back closer to what it was back when I bought it because I want to re-live those times when I drove it back in the seventies.

I just wish I hadn't put that camaro clip on it because my original rad support and inner fenders are all cut up now.

Brian

[918733]

We should change the name of this thread to MARTINSR lol!