1948 Chevy - Updating Original Frame

[RamboHern]

I've heard the s10 swap isn't all it's hyped up to be so I have been looking on here to see what people do to the original set up to make it more reliable and smoother. Like power steering and disc brakes. I have a 1948 and I want to maybe lower it about 2 inches and keep original frame. I also am on a tight budget. Can y'all direct me or help me out on what path to take. I also can buy a 90's s10 frame set up for a 1950 truck with the v8 motor mounts for 800 is that a good deal? I didn't think so but just putting that out there.

[joedoh]

I have an s10 swapped older truck (not a 47-55, but I am doing and s10 swap on one of those too) and there are some common misconceptions about it

myth 1: you can do a mustang II swap for about what an s10 swap would cost you. Well I dont know where people are buying these cheap mustang II setups but welder series is about as cheap as anyone at a couple hundred bucks for the crossmember. Then you still need arms, and shocks, and springs, and spindles, and brakes, and a sway bar mount, and a steering rack, and a good shop or good fab skills to weld it in yourself. that steering rack will need hoses, and tie rods. And you still dont have a sway bar. With an s10, the whole rolling chassis (at least for mine) was free after selling the parts I didnt want/need.

myth 2: by the time you rebuild all the worn components on the s10 front end you could have had a mustang ii setup They made s10s with that front suspension from 1982-2003, there are millions of them out there and lots of competition for parts. I rebuild the whole front end on mine for $430 in parts, and that was NEW arms and NEW shocks and NEW brakes. Also, I upgraded to the 98+ Blazer dual piston front brakes at the same time for about $100. I dont think that compares to a mustang ii cost but it might. Even if it was a wash, I would still pick the s10.

Myth 3: The track width is too narrow Its about 5 inches narrower than stock, which means no special order wheels, you can run about any wheel you see anywhere without fitment problems. Hold out your hand with your thumb pointing straight out, 5 inches is about the distance from your thumb to the tip of your pointer. If you want the wider track width, you can run simple spacers.

Myth 4: The stock s10 wont hold up to horsepower
I have yet to see an s10 pumpkin blow up with a v8 swap. Even if it did, see myth 2 where there are millions of them out there. But mostly trucks dont blow rear ends because they lack the weight over the rear to stress it too much, the tires just spin.

Myth 5: People cobble together the body mounts and its unsafe Maybe, but where would you rather have goopy bubblegum welds? Body mounts? or front suspension crossmembers and rear shackles?

I appreciate however people choose to build trucks, so dont think I am pro or con on either side. But an s10 chassis FITS, is the RIGHT LENGTH, has all the suspension MOUNTED AND READY, is set up for a V8 and POWER STEERING, and is a documented way to get a truck lowered and IFS and disc brakes in one step. If you are building it to cruise it is hands down an inexpensive way to get a lot of work done in one step. S10 specific bag parts and complete kits are available if you want to crawl the earth.

[mr48chev]

There are pluses and minuses for every setup.

S-10 or subframe or front clip swaps end up needing a lot of front sheet metal mods in the inner fenders and around the core support.

I've seen well put together S-10 frame swaps and I've seen some that were scary as hell with suspect work. Those are often done by the throw them together cheap brigade who cut a lot of corners.

I'd expect to have to completely rebuild any S-10 front suspension and steering linkage just as I'd expect to have to rebuild any other donor suspension with a lot of miles on it. You are usually looking at a chassis with 100 to 200K on it when you find it.

Simple and not too expensive and drop the rig about 2 inches. Have your axle dropped and put lowering blocks on the back to lower the back. Even if you swap rear axles to open drive that can be done in a few hours quite easily. 53/54 car front brakes or a disk kit upgrades the front.

Simple but a little more expensive: One of the bolt on MII front crossmembers from Speedway or The other outfit selling them. All you need to put one in is a tape measure, 1/2 inch drill and a hand full of wrenches. You would have to buy the suspension pieces, brakes and steering to do it though.

Weld in crossmembers, the quality of the welding all depends on who does the welding. The scabbed on ones Joedoh referred to were usually done by someone with very limited skills and an under powered welder. You can't run to Lowes on Saturday morning and buy a wire feed welder and expect to do top rate welding Saturday afternoon if you have never welded before but guys still attempt it all too often.
In the early 70's when all I had was a little 110 welder that didn't do much I would tack pieces together with it and then take them up to my friend who welded them up right with his welder. We did a lot of work on my 48 that way and built my T bucket that way.

You usually gain and loose something on what ever way you do it.

[yossarian19]

With a '48, you can look into putting a C10 cross member in it. This to me is a better option than Mustang stuff because it's still half-ton truck parts. If you don't plan to haul / tow anything, then MII stuff is fine.
S10 swap would be my other favorite solution.
You'll improve the ride a lot by switching leaf springs out for leaves with rubber eye bushings or IFS with rubber bushings. Disc brakes are big plus and can be done a number of ways, including just putting them on the stock solid axle.

[joedoh]

comparing money OUT, there is no comparison. the open driveline conversion for example will cost more than an entire donor s10.

but comparing money IN, say when you sell the project on, doing it with a MII and such, will matter to the eventual buyers.

there is the legality of selling also. Many states wont allow a classic or antique registration with an assembled vehicle. Mine does, even though they are the sphincter of the US for requiring documentation of where the parts came from. When I did my 62 on s10 chassis they want to title it as a 98 because that was the title I had, only had a bill of sale for the 62. I switched to a 65 donor and that fixed it. For the 49 I learned my lesson and I have two titles, one for the donor and one for the 49, and they will add that info to the dmv record, which should take care of selling it on if I ever do, which I wont. Oklahoma is another easy one for classics.

[RamboHern]

Okay thanks for all the information! Now I want to know about upgrading the stock frame like boxing it in and what suspension can I use? For the front I do have a 1985 c10 that I could pull the from end for but haven't had time to tear it apart and check dimensions. I am now thinking I would like to keep the stock frame.

[yossarian19]

If you want to keep the stock frame, and I don't blame you a bit, your options are:
Mustang II type front suspension cross member (bolt in or weld in), though this limits you to 5 lug patterns
C10, which is a bit wide but not terminally. You can also get spindles / control arms / wheels to narrow it some. Stronger than MII stuff, bigger brakes, I think you can go 5x5 or 6 x 5.5 too (not positive on 6 lug)
aaaand that's all the options I know of. There probably are some others but darned if I could tell you.

[joedoh]

an 85 c10 track width is almost 6 inches wider in front and 7 in back. you would need some high positive offset wheels unless you were looking at a stock ride height. I remember seeing a 47-55 on here with the c10 front suspension (I think they clipped it, not used the crossmember) and the front wheels were all positive offset like a fwd and still barely fit inside the wheel arches.

[69l46vert]

I'm in the same boat rambohern. Trying to decide what route to take. Gone back and forth as I read and learn more. Right now I'm leaning towards the M2 plan. Less work and you can get the track width right.

Camaro/Nova clip seems ok but I'll never find a used one that's not rusted here in Maine. Brand new they are crazy expensive. And it looks like a much bigger job. Just my 2cents, Rick

[wolffcub]

I kept my stock frame and made a few revisions. New 3" lowered leaf springs were purchased for the front and rear, original solid axle is still up front, disk brakes in the front, used a 2001 4x4 s10 rear end with disk brakes on the rear. The shock mounts were all relocated and updated at both ends of the chassis. Added power a steering kit from CPP and it works perfect. The fit is perfect and I get zero bump steer at the current drop height. Also have sway bars install front and rear.

The leaf springs will ever so slightly work in over the next few years but I am not going to complain that much about the ride quality because it rides like a old truck. Don't expect it to ride smooth. If i had to focus on changing one thing to help it, it would be the rear end suspension and not the front. The front The rear kicks up and that is what ruins the ride in my opinion. I got my hands on a spare 49 chassis and going to install a 4 link with coils on the rear. I'm sure this would help the ride quality greatly.

[MARTINSR]

My biggest question when it comes to this subject is "What are your expectations"? Is the owner going to be towing a speed boat regularly? Are they planning on lots of high speed driving on hiways?

Have they even driven a stock suspened truck? What do they THINK they want?

A stock frame with modern leaves and a dropped axle with a late rear end on those modern leaves rides and drives DAMN GOOD. So what are the expectations? I have heard a guy looking at doing an S-10 swap only to find out it's going to be a "drive it once in a while to shows". Why in the world would he need to do that frame "swap" to drive it like that?

For goodness sakes don't let the "It's so easy" frame swap talk push you when a stock frame with updated springs may be all you need.

Me personally, I love driving an antiquated 55 year old car every day, complete with drum brakes and flat head engine. I drive it every single day and see no need in anything else, that is my expectations and it meets it perfectly.

Brian

[69l46vert]

Wolfcub's plan leans hard towards your idea Ramhern with P/S-P/B... Sounds pretty good to me. Rick

[RamboHern]

Okay this is what kind of advice I was looking for! Now I do want to keep the stock frame and would drive it everyday if I could. It won't be a show truck as I don't have the money for that. Ha I barely have enough (enough spare) to get this project started. Now with the new lowered shocks in the front and back does the front handle a 35o engine good? Would the front sit a lot lower? Also to convert to disc brakes what vehicle should I take off front in the front? Also I have access to a 1980's camaro, would the front suspension off of that be good? Without the cross member of course just clipped on. I just want it brake, steer, and handle good. I want a good daily driver with a relatively low cost. I am willing to pull parts from a junkyard rather than spend money. (i have access to a junkyard and pull whatever I want for free ha) I just want to get the best reliable set up rather than throwing something together than will work but will fail with everyday use and some cornering fun on the twisties.

[RamboHern]

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[RamboHern]

This is something i'm going for I guess but with disc brakes.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

My biggest question when it comes to this subject is "What are your expectations"? Is the owner going to be towing a speed boat regularly? Are they planning on lots of high speed driving on hiways?

Have they even driven a stock suspened truck? What do they THINK they want?

A stock frame with modern leaves and a dropped axle with a late rear end on those modern leaves rides and drives DAMN GOOD. So what are the expectations? I have heard a guy looking at doing an S-10 swap only to find out it's going to be a "drive it once in a while to shows". Why in the world would he need to do that frame "swap" to drive it like that?

For goodness sakes don't let the "It's so easy" frame swap talk push you when a stock frame with updated springs may be all you need.

Me personally, I love driving an antiquated 55 year old car every day, complete with drum brakes and flat head engine. I drive it every single day and see no need in anything else, that is my expectations and it meets it perfectly.

Brian

I agree to set your expectations. an axle dropped low enough for me to to drive it would violate scrub and get hung up on even flat roadkill. not to mention the cost involved, dropped axles and leafs are generally not cheap. And it may RIDE good but it will only corner like a truck no matter what you do to the springs and shocks, because thats how solid axle trucks corner.

I swapped an s10 frame under a 65 C10, a truck that already had IFS, because I wanted to keep the stock 98 drivetrain and systems like disc brakes, HVAC, overdrive, because I DONT enjoy tinkering with an old truck as the weather changes, or spending again and again to upgrade to what comes standard on a modern truck like power steering, power disc brakes, etc, because the stock equipment was heavy for its intended use as a truck and not just the cruiser I had in mind. I figure I had as much in the whole truck as a single porterbuilt crossmember kit costs, not that the porterbuilt stuff isnt worth it (it is!)

[Highsider]

I love my MII front and single leaf rear, on a stock frame.
Doubt if I would own it any other way.

Sweet driver even at 70.

[1-ton of fun]

Originally Posted by RamboHern

Okay this is what kind of advice I was looking for! Now I do want to keep the stock frame and would drive it everyday if I could. It won't be a show truck as I don't have the money for that. Ha I barely have enough (enough spare) to get this project started. Now with the new lowered shocks in the front and back does the front handle a 35o engine good? Would the front sit a lot lower? Also to convert to disc brakes what vehicle should I take off front in the front? Also I have access to a 1980's camaro, would the front suspension off of that be good? Without the cross member of course just clipped on. I just want it brake, steer, and handle good. I want a good daily driver with a relatively low cost. I am willing to pull parts from a junkyard rather than spend money. (i have access to a junkyard and pull whatever I want for free ha) I just want to get the best reliable set up rather than throwing something together than will work but will fail with everyday use and some cornering fun on the twisties.

80's camaro (well 82+) is a unibody with a strut fornt end, won't work.

if you're keeping the stock front axle, just get one of the many brake kits available for these trucks. you can get them in the stock 6-lug pattern or in a 5x4.75" bolt circle (good to match the rear if you're using an s10, nova, or camaro rear axle)

i think the best advice is to build how you are going to use it, and don't go overboard with might-as-well's so you can finish it.

[1-ton of fun]

i am building two trucks, a '59 restomod/protouring for myself, and my son and i are building a '55 for him that will be stock-ish with disc brakes up front and a mild v8/auto setup.

the '59 has a nova subframe with bilstein monotube gas shocks, 680#/in coil springs, and a 1.25" SOLID front sway bar. the rear is a 4-link using most of a no limit engineering kit, but i am using a different panhard bar, and coil-over mounts. i have bilstein coil overs in the rear, and the mounts have 6" of adjust-ability in them to be able to get the rear of the truck perfect for the right stance. this has taken forever, but i work slow, and have too many projects going on.

we are keeping it simple for the '55 in the interest of getting it done. it will ride and handle like a an old truck. the '59 will handle like a road racer. if i had used the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) principle on the '59, i would have been driving it years ago.

[MARTINSR]

That is really what it comes down to, what are the owners expectations!

And of course, are the expectiations realistic and justified. We could have the expectations of this truck driving and handling like a new truck and all fired up for the big frame swap but then come to our senses when we think about it a bit, that we DON'T need all that.

I can't make it clear enough, I am a hot rodder at heart, I am not a hater of the modifed. My truck is chopped and sectioned for goodness sakes. And it will have an IRS too, a 49-54 passenger car front end. That's how I am handling it, a bolt in crossmember, done deal.



I drove for many years on the stock suspension and brakes including commuting 20 miles each way on interstate 880 thru the SF bay area.



I am as I said a hot rodder at heart. One of my cars reflects that, my '65 Buick Gran Sport.



Seen here parked in front of the Tesla factory, the very building it was made in 1965. This is in my town, I share the roads with the most technically advanced cars on the planet. My Gran Sport has race bred mods to the suspension with sway bars and urethane bushings and a quick ratio steering box. With the help of a friend who has ran autocross since we were in highschool in the seventies this thing HANDLES. It's a friggin slot car, it HANDLES. It turns 13's in the quarter at 100 (well, at 99.99 never broke 100). I can throw donuts in a very small area throwning the rear around like a rag. But is it a MUST for me? Nope, it's just what my expectations were 30 years ago when I first got it.

My daily driver, a 1959 Rambler with 9x1 inch drum brakes that don't even have self adjusters! And a single reservour master cyl under the floor that gets checked along with adjusting the brakes every year. My wife's Caravan will blow the doors off it.



It's got the stock flathead and a three speed. Hell, I drove for 3 years on bias ply tires!





I drive it every single day in the San Francisco bay area traffic, without a hitch. I drive it without worry, just relax every day driving my little Rambler and I LOVE IT! It has been a blessing as far as I am concerned being able to drive that funky old car every day.

And I have driven all over the US thru 29 states on road trips in the family van so don't think your traffic is different so you can't. They are all pretty much the same. WHERE as in on highways going 75 or super curvy roads every day, that's different. But traffic is traffic pretty much.

My point of all this is you do what you want, you DON'T need "modern" suspension and brakes, that is all a myth. You drive it a bit different and that's all there is to it. But I started driving my late model four wheel disc brake performace car I was driving a little different anyway. By the way, I sold my '65 Buick Skylark daily driver because I thought I HAD to have that "modern" car too. After a short while I made a big Yawn and said I needed to go back to something FUN and bought the Rambler and have never looked back.

If that will work for you, modify the stock suspension if you need lowering or ad a sway bar and some good shocks, first off of course rebuild everything. It's a HECK OF a lot easier than swapping out crossmembers and God forbid the frame.

What are your expectations?

Brian

[crossfire84]

Take a look at my build, If you don't mind getting dirty and doing all work the C10 front swap was a piece of cake. Total junk yard cost $60.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by crossfire84

the C10 front swap was a piece of cake.

I think maybe your piece of cake is better than others. I had the opposite on my 65, extended the arms 4".

[iowaboynca]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I drove for many years on the stock suspension and brakes including commuting 20 miles each way on interstate 880 thru the SF bay area.

You still commute on 880?!? Its not the capability of your car that i would worry about, its all the other idiots on that slab! Would hate to have someone bang into your rambler, its so cool. But can't live in fear...

(I live in Patterson, 16mi SW of Modesto and have to take 880 when i have to fly out of SFO and i hate that stretch)

[dhicks]

hello/// am restoring a 1950 5 window...want to remove windows/// how do I do that.

[crossfire84]

Originally Posted by dhicks

hello/// am restoring a 1950 5 window...want to remove windows/// how do I do that.

This should work!
Or you could use a razor knife to cut the old rubber.