Make it handle

[N2TRUX]

Hey Rob glad to see you back again. With the growing trend toward going fast in turns over just going fast, I think this is a great topic.

I am in the process of updating my 77 to see what improvements I can gain for "spirited" street driving. I doubt that it will ever see a road course, but there are some nice winding country roads near by that I plan to take advantage of.

I have a Ride Tech Muscle bar in front now, and just added a set of their billet S/A shocks. I plan to add the same shocks in the rear, just not sure what to do about a sway bar. I have to see what will work with the Air Bar system. Any ideas?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

Hey Rob glad to see you back again. With the growing trend toward going fast in turns over just going fast, I think this is a great topic.

I am in the process of updating my 77 to see what improvements I can gain for "spirited" street driving. I doubt that it will ever see a road course, but there are some nice winding country roads near by that I plan to take advantage of.

I have a Ride Tech Muscle bar in front now, and just added a set of their billet S/A shocks. I plan to add the same shocks in the rear, just not sure what to do about a sway bar. I have to see what will work with the Air Bar system. Any ideas?

Ken, see how well things work 1st. Since trucks have a lighter rear end w/their weight distribution, a rear sway bar may only compound the natural tendency for the rear to break loose in corners.

[robnolimit]

WOW, great response. I just got home from ADAMS cart track. Tuesday night is time-attack night. Like autocross, we run two laps on the clock, then pit. Its a great place for chassis tuning, and drivers ed. Tonight I ran a personal best 48.46 sec. lap, and now beat about half of the 'Miata challenge' cars, they are the fastest, tonights best lap 46.92. So, yes, these old pick-ups can earn some respect.

I think we need to start with some vocabulary, so we all stay on the same page. I'll do my best to explain things, but i'm not to good at graphics, so if you can help, please do. I'm trying to give this some thought, so it all makes sense, and right now i'm kinda pumped after racing, so this is it for now, I hear a cold one calling

[basemodel67]

I'm in for any info.

I have heard switching the upper A-arms side to side helps, but it also moves the wheel back in the wheelwell. Any better ideas? Do tube uppers help correct factory geometry? What about swapping lower arms side to side?

Lets get super technical! ... but remember I dig holes for a living, so pictures help.

[robnolimit]

The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

First vocabulary word : PUSH. or Understeer, or to be TIGHT. this is when you turn the wheel, and you can feel the truck 'push' forward, not wanting to turn. It is very common for these trucks to push, especially with wider tires do to the factory geometry, - remember, they were work trucks, tractors with windows.
#2: LOOSE, or Oversteer, is when the truck turns MORE than you want. Usually the back is comin around. Trucks are light in the rear, so they get 'loose' easily.
So, we have two problems right from the start, a push going into the turn, and getting loose through and out of the turn. An increase in caster helps to eliminate the push. I am in favor of more caster, much more than I would like to add negative camber to solve the push. Much more than -1deg camber wears tires, feels twitchy, and increases rolling resistance.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

So, we have two problems right from the start, a push going into the turn, and getting loose through and out of the turn. An increase in caster helps to eliminate the push. I am in favor of more caster, much more than I would like to add negative camber to solve the push. Much more than -1deg camber wears tires, feels twitchy, and increases rolling resistance.

Agreed. I think -1° camber is about max for street vehicles w/as much caster as possible.

[dnd1978]

[QUOTE=robnolimit;4167810]The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

Robnolimit,

I just found this. Hotckis make the corrected A arm. What do you think?


http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?...mitForm=Search

[SCOTI]

[quote=dnd1978;4234154]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

Robnolimit,

I just found this. Hotckis make the corrected A arm. What do you think?


http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?...mitForm=Search

This kit was mentioned back on posts 116-118 (referred to as the 'H' kit).

[jjzepplin]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

The whole goal of A arm swapping, and I don't know if this really works, is to increase positive 'Caster'. Stock C-10's spec out 1 or 2 degrees, but your truck will respond well to 6 to 7 deg, and more for the wide tire guys, bigger than 8". To my knowledge, nobody makes a set of arms to gain caster, may someone should. The trick is to move the lower ball joint forward about a 1/2", and the upper ball joint back about 7/8", this will keep the wheel centered and net about 8 deg. + caster.

First vocabulary word : PUSH. or Understeer, or to be TIGHT. this is when you turn the wheel, and you can feel the truck 'push' forward, not wanting to turn. It is very common for these trucks to push, especially with wider tires do to the factory geometry, - remember, they were work trucks, tractors with windows.
#2: LOOSE, or Oversteer, is when the truck turns MORE than you want. Usually the back is comin around. Trucks are light in the rear, so they get 'loose' easily.
So, we have two problems right from the start, a push going into the turn, and getting loose through and out of the turn. An increase in caster helps to eliminate the push. I am in favor of more caster, much more than I would like to add negative camber to solve the push. Much more than -1deg camber wears tires, feels twitchy, and increases rolling resistance.

I have a 73 front end. Will this work for my truck too?

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Ken, see how well things work 1st. Since trucks have a lighter rear end w/their weight distribution, a rear sway bar may only compound the natural tendency for the rear to break loose in corners.

Scot- I agree with your thoughts. Since I plan to build a fresh 12 bolt this Winter, I want to do the research now.