Another 489bbc question

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Roll'nSlo

running roughly 10:1 CR.

Originally Posted by Roll'nSlo

Plan on running E85 as well.

Its a waste to run 10:1 on E85. You mentioned you planned to run E85 so if that is still your plan then go with higher compression. Your mpg is going to be a lot less with E85 so you may as well get as much power from it as possible.

If your sticking with 10:1 then forget E85, its not needed.

[drag80]

I agree, my 461 is 10.3:1 and I just run premium pump gas. On the dyno we tried some different race fuels and no increase in power.

[Roll'nSlo]

Ok, 12:1 it is on that topic. Thanks.

Next dilemma, is I can't stroke it and get the heads both. Which way would everyone go, 489 w/ stock 781 heads or 461 w/ 320cc, 115cc heads. I'm leaning towards the 461. I know I probably won't get the 700hp out of it but maybe close?

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Roll'nSlo

Ok, 12:1 it is on that topic. Thanks.

Next dilemma, is I can't stroke it and get the heads both. Which way would everyone go, 489 w/ stock 781 heads or 461 w/ 320cc, 115cc heads. I'm leaning towards the 461. I know I probably won't get the 700hp out of it but maybe close?

Go talk to a builder. You dont want 320cc heads on a 461 street engine. There was a guy on another forum I go to with a 11:1 496, out of the box 270cc Brodix Race Rite ovals and a comp solid roller running mid 10`s in a street car.

You can use your 781 heads on either engine but you wont see 700hp from any engine with them unless they have been heavily ported by a pro and/or you use a supercharger. Going 12:1-13:1 on either engine will help make some good power. I dont know what kind of money you want to spend but for $1500 or so you can get the summit 305cc iron square port heads which are actually dart heads. They will work pretty good on a budget. Stay away from anything with the PROCOMP name. Trick Flow Ovals are good heads too.

You can get a balanced rotating assembly from Chris Straub, the link I provided. He can set you up with everything. Rotating assembly, heads, custom roller cam. With the rigth parts and a matched combo you can get 700hp from the 489 but you have to use good quality parts and match everything up. Contact Chris Straub and tell him what you want and see what he can do for you.

[Roll'nSlo]

Ok. Thanks. Have you ever heard of a Harold Hutton? He owns a local machine shop and from what I've been told he's worked on a lot of well recognized vehicles

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Roll'nSlo

Ok. Thanks. Have you ever heard of a Harold Hutton? He owns a local machine shop and from what I've been told he's worked on a lot of well recognized vehicles

No I havent. I live in California and dont know of builders too far outside my area. I do know there are some good builders in TX from what I read on other forums. Owens Racing comes up a bit, think that the name.

[Roll'nSlo]

Ok. HP Racing Engines is the company name.

[Blue Rat]

Velocity is more important when it comes to head flow numbers. If you do the 461 go with the 270cc heads. If you go with the 489 I would go with 270cc to 300cc heads. I would stay with oval port for better flow if it was me. The solid roller would make some good numbers. But it has to be right on the camshaft. You also need a lot better parts combo too. Need better valves. Be sure a pick some pressure fed lifters. Your valve spring pressure is going to be a lot higher too. Head Studs an good rocker arms an push rods are a must with a solid roller. Don't forget about the stud girdle.

Don't forget about those expensive head gaskets with aluminum heads.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Blue Rat

Velocity is more important when it comes to head flow numbers. If you do the 461 go with the 270cc heads. If you go with the 489 I would go with 270cc to 300cc heads. I would stay with oval port for better flow if it was me. The solid roller would make some good numbers. But it has to be right on the camshaft. You also need a lot better parts combo too. Need better valves. Be sure a pick some pressure fed lifters. Your valve spring pressure is going to be a lot higher too. Head Studs an good rocker arms an push rods are a must with a solid roller. Don't forget about the stud girdle.

Don't forget about those expensive head gaskets with aluminum heads.

Velocity and flow numbers have a equal importance. Velocity give the low mid range power and part throttle response. Flow numbers will tell you how much HP you can make. Agree with the head sizes though. Dont see how head studs are required for a solid roller cam but they cant hurt. Morel lifters are about the best roller lifter available but your going to pay for the quality. Using the right parts this can easily turn into a $10k engine.

You need to set a budget and stick with it and build within those means. You can get balanced rotating assemblys for $1800-$2000, block machine work can run $400-$1000 depending on what all is done. Rebuilding stock heads will run you $700-$1000 WITHOUT any portwork. Add about $1500 for a good port job. Add $1500-$2000 for roller cam, lifters, springs and pushrods. Then add in for roller rockers, gaskets, intake manifold, carb, ignition, engine hardware, oil pump and pan, it all adds up.

What I would do is concentrate on low-mid speed torque instead of HP. You can get close to 600ftlbs pretty easy if not more and still be in the 550-600hp range.

There was a build on another forum with a 9:1 489, out of the box brodix oval port race rites and a standard performer intake and the straub cam I linked to and it made 580ftlbs and 530ish hp. Better intake and more compression would get it a bit higher. The torque is more than enough to push a heavy truck around.

[Roll'nSlo]

Ok, here's my game plan now. Going to go with a 461 with a set of aluminum oval port 270 heads with 12:1 CR. I've always been planning on head studs. Cam, roller lifters, roller rockers and push rods will come after I talk to the machine shop. Headers I'm going to try to use the ones I have. Intake and carb will come after I'm done with everything else. I'm just curious which would be better timing gears or chain.

[Roll'nSlo]

Called my machine shop today and to cut my 781's to 2.19 and 1.88 was $275 labor only. Port them was $600. Decided best bet was to just buy some heads and not stroke it.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Roll'nSlo

Called my machine shop today and to cut my 781's to 2.19 and 1.88 was $275 labor only. Port them was $600. Decided best bet was to just buy some heads and not stroke it.

yeah $275 just to cut them for bigger valves. you still need the valves, new guides, hone guides, install exhaust seats, performance valve job. $600 to port sounds like bowl clean up and gasket match which is fine but wont hit 600hp. Smart move going with aftermarket heads. Do you have a crank and rods now or do you need that stuff too? if you have to buy them anyway may as well stroke it. Eagle cast steel stroker crank good for 600hp easy was $300 when I was doing a 498 project. never finished it though. As for timing set, its a personal preference. I like geardrives but a nice Cloyes billet chain is tough to beat.

[Roll'nSlo]

I have a complete 454. Honestly I could just hone the cylinders and put it back together. I'm going to reuse the crank and rods.

[Kyle@FTP]

68c10owner and blue rat seem to have you pointed in the correct direction. Im 3/4 the way through a 468 build. Had 781s but to make them right to get my 600hp+ number was around $1200. I found a solid set of dart 275 oval ports that should do the trick and bout them used ready to rock and roll for $1500. The motor will live at 6500 for 20 minutes at a time so a solid roller set up was in order. 310/310 .773/.773 was what george from clay smith specd. Steel 4" crank Crower 6.385 rod. Im a big fan of the long rod to slow the piston speed. and we are staying at 10:1 running 91 octane. or 110 when I put the N20o to it.

I think in a heavier truck like your doing the smaller oval port will work much better that a large rectangle port. It will help the bottom end torque and then that thing up and moving. 781 need to be in the right hands and a lot of money spent for a true 600hp bullet. Big valves are manditory and lots of short turn work and bowl work is needed. CStruab is great when it comes to cam selection. Also Scott Foxwell at Foxwell motorsports is a wealth of knowledge.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Kyle@FTP

68c10owner and blue rat seem to have you pointed in the correct direction. Im 3/4 the way through a 468 build. Had 781s but to make them right to get my 600hp+ number was around $1200. I found a solid set of dart 275 oval ports that should do the trick and bout them used ready to rock and roll for $1500. The motor will live at 6500 for 20 minutes at a time so a solid roller set up was in order. 310/310 .773/.773 was what george from clay smith specd. Steel 4" crank Crower 6.385 rod. Im a big fan of the long rod to slow the piston speed. and we are staying at 10:1 running 91 octane. or 110 when I put the N20o to it.

I think in a heavier truck like your doing the smaller oval port will work much better that a large rectangle port. It will help the bottom end torque and then that thing up and moving. 781 need to be in the right hands and a lot of money spent for a true 600hp bullet. Big valves are manditory and lots of short turn work and bowl work is needed. CStruab is great when it comes to cam selection. Also Scott Foxwell at Foxwell motorsports is a wealth of knowledge.

Chris Straub and Scott Foxwell work together. Chris is now designing cams for Clay Smith and still does his own custom grinds. A hydraulic roller will go to 6500rpm no problems if the correct parts are used, ask Straub. He will point you in the right direction.

The other thing is since you most likely wont hit your 700hp goal with the parts you have to use, you can always add the blue bottle.

[Roll'nSlo]

I was contemplating that. It'll be a little easier to get it to hook out of the hole.

[Kyle@FTP]

They downfall we have found with the hyd. set up is oil bleed on the lifters. They will start to collapse a little after a few hard high RPM pulls. We are fighting that in a twin turbo 454 street car right now. But for a cruiser and the occasional pass it will work great.

The bottle is an amazing invention. haha just make sure you keep the comp around 9.5:1 and retard the timing 2* for every 50hp shot you hit it with. I wouldnt go over 150shot with the set up you have. and you will enjoy years of fun with it. Make sure you tell the cam company you want to spray it if you go that route.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Roll'nSlo

I was contemplating that. It'll be a little easier to get it to hook out of the hole.

I`ve never used it myself but my friend did. Took his car from 12.20`s to 11.40`s on a 150 shot. He hit it on the freeway once with me in the car and it was incredible. I dont know if you have a certain ET in mind but a 10:1 pump gas 461 will do pretty well with the right heads and cam. Going to 12:1-13:1 on E85 will increase performance some but may not be worth the trouble. E85 burns different and the mpg is a lot less. My wifes 2010 Impala is a flex fuel car and we lost 100 miles per tank going to E85 over 87 pump gas. Havent used E85 since.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Kyle@FTP

They downfall we have found with the hyd. set up is oil bleed on the lifters. They will start to collapse a little after a few hard high RPM pulls. We are fighting that in a twin turbo 454 street car right now. But for a cruiser and the occasional pass it will work great.

The bottle is an amazing invention. haha

Talk to Straub. He`s got hydraulics running 7000rpms+. He uses Morels but not sure what part number he uses. I know they arent cheap.

[Kyle@FTP]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

Talk to Straub. He`s got hydraulics running 7000rpms+. He uses Morels but not sure what part number he uses. I know they arent cheap.

I would be curious to see how long its at 7k. Its its through the lights then shut it down thats no biggy but for extended standing miles or "enduro" Its rough on things. a little extra money for a solid roller and springs and that fear is gone. Straub/Foxwell do some good stuff with the small cubic inch big blocks. Im also a fan of the new Canfield heads they are doing.

[68c10owner]

Agreed they are a great team. His cam profiles are not what we are use to seeing but they work and work well. I know Scott is pretty proud of the Canfields. They are great heads especially if you can get him to work his magic on them.

[Roll'nSlo]

Would I benefit a lot going with aluminum heads opposed to cast iron?? Found a set of Merlin's for a lot cheaper. They're 270cc with 2.30 and 1.88 valves. Just hate the 119cc chamber on them.

[Kyle@FTP]

Dissapates heat faster they usually are equal to a well worked set of cast iron heads out of the box. half the weight. if they are less than $1500 and you can swing it then you are money ahead at the end of the day.

[Kyle@FTP]

the 119cc chamber is nothing to be scared of. a set of -18cc to -23cc dome pistons and you are right there

[68c10owner]

You have to be care full with the 2.3 valve. Not all pistons have the clearance needed for them. They are decent heads and would work well on your engine.

Here are the Brodix heads from Summit. The price is PER head. They are available in 110cc also but would recommend getting the 119cc chamber. Thats pretty much the standard these days for bbc heads.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/b...g&autoview=SKU

You can get away with more compression with aluminum heads than iron heads but the iron stuff will make good power too. You just need to match the heads with everything else.