Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 and Sanderson BB8 Headers Project

[Beach-Burban]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I wouldn't argue your point if you could define what the 'proper' mount actually is. I guess what I'm trying to communicate is are you 101% sure if you get the different set of motor mount stanchions that things will fit w/o issue? I'm betting 'no' or else this discussion wouldn't be happening.

If you're not sure the mounts (stanchions) are the Golden Ticket you seek, you're still potentially stuck. To me, that would be frustrating. Say the 'new/different' stanchions allow the headers to fit but now the fan doesn't line-up or a valve cover interferes w/something (common issues when using different parts). Thus my suggestion of tweaking things to work w/what you have since the drivetrain is already installed/in-place.

I get it if you don't wish to go that route. If someone had both types & would let you try the set-up that's pre-73 big-block (but different from yours) to see if that solves the issue, that's 100% how I would go about it first. Barring that and/or wanting to move forward sooner than later, I'd tweak things.

I wish I could help & will definitely be watching to see what the answer is to your dilemma.

You are 100% correct in your analysis of my dilemma, SCOTI...and I don't know enough to argue what will work or what could go wrong with simply changing to the '68 to '71 set-up. I just "think" that in the scheme of things, a '72 is basically identical to a '68 to '71 in regards to frame, engine compartment, etc...and many have used the BB8's without the issue I am having. Sanderson knows that many BB engines have been transplanted into our trucks that came originally with a I/6 or SB V/8...and make the claim that the BB8 has been engineered to fit without issue "IF" they have the original (or suitable replacement) motor mounts. Whether or not Sanderson knows about the '72 only motor mount is in question, but doesn't really aid in getting the answer I'm looking for...unless someone else had my same exact issue, changed to a specific motor mount and lived happily ever after! Without that knowledge, I will probably have to collect the '68 to '71 components for a future swap and see how it goes? For now (after the holiday season is behind us), I'll be concentrating on my EFI project...but will keep my eyes open in case more intel comes my way! I really do appreciate EVERYTHING you have suggested, and some frame tweaking might be in my future...but I'm not ready to do that yet. Thanks once again...and yes, I'll post any headway I make, although it might be a while!

Woody

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Beach-Burban

You are 100% correct in your analysis of my dilemma, SCOTI...and I don't know enough to argue what will work or what could go wrong with simply changing to the '68 to '71 set-up. I just "think" that in the scheme of things, a '72 is basically identical to a '68 to '71 in regards to frame, engine compartment, etc...and many have used the BB8's without the issue I am having. Sanderson knows that many BB engines have been transplanted into our trucks that came originally with a I/6 or SB V/8...and make the claim that the BB8 has been engineered to fit without issue "IF" they have the original (or suitable replacement) motor mounts. Whether or not Sanderson knows about the '72 only motor mount is in question, but doesn't really aid in getting the answer I'm looking for...unless someone else had my same exact issue, changed to a specific motor mount and lived happily ever after! Without that knowledge, I will probably have to collect the '68 to '71 components for a future swap and see how it goes? For now (after the holiday season is behind us), I'll be concentrating on my EFI project...but will keep my eyes open in case more intel comes my way! I really do appreciate EVERYTHING you have suggested, and some frame tweaking might be in my future...but I'm not ready to do that yet. Thanks once again...and yes, I'll post any headway I make, although it might be a while!

Woody

I think I have a pair of the 68-72 (or 68-71 if thats what they are) bb stanchions if thats what you need to try.

[Beach-Burban]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I think I have a pair of the 68-72 (or 68-71 if thats what they are) bb stanchions if thats what you need to try.

Thanks for the kind offer, SCOTI, but I'll do more research before I decide on which mounts I'll try first. They use a completely different style rubber mount which I think aids in the better fit...and I recently saw a complete set for sale but passed on those as well. Just not ready to make the decision on it right now...but I'll keep your offer in mind! Sanderson even gave part numbers for a couple of aftermarket mounts that they say will work, so getting different mounts won't be a problem (although I am leaning towards the original style). Thanks again!

Woody

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Beach-Burban

Thanks for the kind offer, SCOTI, but I'll do more research before I decide on which mounts I'll try first. They use a completely different style rubber mount which I think aids in the better fit...and I recently saw a complete set for sale but passed on those as well. Just not ready to make the decision on it right now...but I'll keep your offer in mind! Sanderson even gave part numbers for a couple of aftermarket mounts that they say will work, so getting different mounts won't be a problem (although I am leaning towards the original style). Thanks again!

Woody

No worries. I remember keeping them & a pair of small block mounts 'just in case'. After I mentioned that yesterday, I realized I'd have to actually look for them.....
#semi-prohoarder.

[Beach-Burban]

***Update***

Well...it appears I need to back-peddle a little on who screwed up with the fitment of the Sanderson BB8 headers! My mechanic friend (Jerry) finally got an area in his shop freed-up so we could start to figure out the motor mount issues, and after removing the stock manifolds and fitting in the passenger side ourselves, (this was the side that my so-called "Header Pro" provided pictures showing really bad interference with the fit), we slid the header in without issue??? Sure, it was a little close between the frame and where the "Sanderson Headers" nameplate is welded to the collector...but we still fit it in even with a rag in-between protecting the finish! When we took another look at the pictures that the "Pro" had sent me, we realized that he had attempted to install the header while aligned with the wrong bolt hole (which pushed the header forward nearly 1 1/2 inches)!?!? Now the primary tube easily clears the "single bump" in the middle of the motor mount perch. We will be grinding a little extra clearance into the frame where nameplate is...but it's not absolutely necessary...just preferred!

Then we started working on the drivers side (which the "Pro" never attempted as he couldn't fit the passenger side). At first glance, everything looked like smooth sailing...although it really helped having the Suburban up on a lift as this side goes in much easier from below! The header flange mated-up to the exhaust ports perfectly until we tried to get the bolts started? After a lot of attempts, we managed to get the rear bolt started, but just barely...and then we realized that the alternator bracket was keeping the front of the header flange from seating tightly against the front exhaust port! There was nothing unusual about the stock alternator bracket or bolt, so we surmised that someone at Sanderson forgot to grind a clearance divot into the flange!? We struggled with the two options: grind the alternator bracket or grind the ceramic coated flange??? Ultimately, I made the hard decision and chose to grind the flange as the interference also involved the head of the bracket bolt (plus, the hole in the bracket would have to be made into a slot!). It wasn't just a slight divot that was required as we ground in small amounts until we got the header bolts to finally thread in nicely. Jerry (the shop owner) had some actually customers to take care of, so we called it quits for the day...but we had made tremendous progress without having to lift the engine, alter the motor mounts (although we are putting in a new set of "caged" rubber mounts) or dent-up these beautiful ceramic headers...just a little grinding in a couple of inconsequential places. It was a really good day!

Woody



This area of Jerry's shop is a little tight, but it has everything I needed including a lift and a complete locking security cage surrounding it (PLUS...Jerry!).



Three things to note in picture: The bolt hole to the right of the flange that the "Pro" used; How much clearance there is when the primary tube isn't sitting on the "bump"; and the area with the purple rag...that will be slightly clearanced for the nameplate.



This picture was supplied by the "PRO" and it shows how the primary tube is resting on the "bump"...because the flange is 1 1/2 inches too far forward!



This picture shows how only a slight amount of grinding will be required to fully clear that retangular nameplate: A little by the purple rag and a little where the frame comes to a point.



This picture was also supplied by the "PRO". It's a little hard to see but it shows that the "point" on the frame hits in the middle of the nameplate, however, as shown in the previous picture with the flange properly aligned and rotated into place, it has just enough clearance to bolt in!

[Beach-Burban]

***DRIVER'S SIDE PICTURES***




Notice where the alternator bracket and bolt required a divot in order to fit. Other than that, no clearance issues at all!



Plenty of clearance for the frame and oil filter!



Nice new "caged rubber" motor mounts waiting to be installed...although it was unfortunate that I couldn't find any "Made In USA" that would fit!

Woody

[SCOTI]

Glad it's working out for you!

[Beach-Burban]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Glad it's working out for you!

Thanks SCOTI...I was shocked when we slid the header right into place! I've recently seen another post that showed the difference between the '72 and '73 to '87 (it actually might go through '91?) mounts and the difference was where the stand (perch) bolts to the frame. '72s have a single "bump" in the middle with the two mounting bolts on each side of the bump. '73s and up has two "bumps" spread apart but still has two bolts securing them to the frame (on the outer sides of each "bump" if I am remembering correctly?). I should have snagged the picture I saw comparing the two but I didn't think about it at the time! It appears that the "caged" rubber mount section and the engine side bolting cradle that surrounds the "caged" mount are the same from '72 to '91...at least that's how SOME of the parts suppliers list them. All I know is that the ones I bought look correct so we'll find out when we actually install them. I'll be adding some more updates as I progress with this project. I appreciate the suggestions you made, and I pretty much did exactly what you suggested...but who would have guessed that a professional muffler shop with decades of header installation experience would have screwed-up that badly!?!?

Woody

[Ironangel]

I use the pre-72 stands with the standard 2282 small block mounts. This provides plenty of adjustment by the ability to shim the small block mounts and move the motor left or right by utilizing the large hole in the stands. Same stands as in pic #2...In my 427 truck, I took a pair of small block stands and welded the lower half of these, (see the pic) and bolted the uppers directly to the block to create a stronger horizontally bolted motor mount. Using that method raised the motor 1" back to the factory height. The first method using pre-72 stands with 2282 mounts only, lowers the motor. How do I know? I had to adjust the fan shroud because the blades were contacting the lower edge of the shroud. Something I found surprising when I first dropped a 69 L34 396 in one of my 72's was that the small block fan shroud worked perfectly, the 7 blade fan aligned in the hole perfectly. I used the same 3-core small block radiator with no overheating issues. The Turbo 350 bolted right up to the same cross member in the same position as the small block and the drive shaft fit perfectly. So, I think your fan being located inside the shroud opening is good as long as it's in the round area of the shroud. If it's moving lots of air back across the motor your good. I never used a fan clutch but I could hear the air moving through the shroud. I've never had to grind a frame rail to clear my headers! I run Hedman Ceramic Coated Elites with the thick 3/8" flanges. Thats one of the pro's to using the pre-72 stands with the 2282 mounts, that allows you to move the motor as much as a 1/2" in any direction. Leave the trans cross member bolts loose to assist any adjustment at the mounts. Hanging the motor from the front helps in locating and clearancing the headers.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Beach-Burban

***Update***

Three things to note in picture: The bolt hole to the right of the flange that the "Pro" used; How much clearance there is when the primary tube isn't sitting on the "bump"; and the area with the purple rag...that will be slightly clearanced for the nameplate.


Attachment 2258600

This picture shows how only a slight amount of grinding will be required to fully clear that retangular nameplate: A little by the purple rag and a little where the frame comes to a point.

Now that I've seen the images on my actual computer vs my phone screen, the area between where your purple rag is on the frame & the 'branding plate/tag' is where I slightly buzzed mine as well (3/16 - 1/4 " removed).

[Beach-Burban]

Originally Posted by Ironangel

I use the pre-72 stands with the standard 2282 small block mounts. This provides plenty of adjustment by the ability to shim the small block mounts and move the motor left or right by utilizing the large hole in the stands. Same stands as in pic #2...In my 427 truck, I took a pair of small block stands and welded the lower half of these, (see the pic) and bolted the uppers directly to the block to create a stronger horizontally bolted motor mount. Using that method raised the motor 1" back to the factory height. The first method using pre-72 stands with 2282 mounts only, lowers the motor. How do I know? I had to adjust the fan shroud because the blades were contacting the lower edge of the shroud. Something I found surprising when I first dropped a 69 L34 396 in one of my 72's was that the small block fan shroud worked perfectly, the 7 blade fan aligned in the hole perfectly. I used the same 3-core small block radiator with no overheating issues. The Turbo 350 bolted right up to the same cross member in the same position as the small block and the drive shaft fit perfectly. So, I think your fan being located inside the shroud opening is good as long as it's in the round area of the shroud. If it's moving lots of air back across the motor your good. I never used a fan clutch but I could hear the air moving through the shroud. I've never had to grind a frame rail to clear my headers! I run Hedman Ceramic Coated Elites with the thick 3/8" flanges. Thats one of the pro's to using the pre-72 stands with the 2282 mounts, that allows you to move the motor as much as a 1/2" in any direction. Leave the trans cross member bolts loose to assist any adjustment at the mounts. Hanging the motor from the front helps in locating and clearancing the headers.

Thanks for the information, Ironangel...happily, it turned out that I just hired the wrong guy to do the work for me in the beginning! I actually didn't "need" to grind the frame to fit the passenger side header in...but since the torque of the 454 rolls the engine in that direction, I felt that it was too close of a tolerance. I have no explanation for the required flange grinding on the driver side to clear the alternator bracket???

Good to hear your thoughts on the fan shroud...I believe it blows a great deal of air towards the engine...but I'm still thinking about trying a "high flow" thermostat to see if things can get even better! Thanks again for the input!

Woody

[Beach-Burban]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Now that I've seen the images on my actual computer vs my phone screen, the area between where your purple rag is on the frame & the 'branding plate/tag' is where I slightly buzzed mine as well (3/16 - 1/4 " removed).

What I've been recently asking myself is why Sanderson decided to put their nameplate right there??? If they had moved it to the top of the collector, there would definitely be more clearance...would it be enough clearance, I don't know, but it might have been especially with new motor mounts (mine are so squashed that it's embarrassing)?

Woody

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Beach-Burban

What I've been recently asking myself is why Sanderson decided to put their nameplate right there??? If they had moved it to the top of the collector, there would definitely be more clearance...would it be enough clearance, I don't know, but it might have been especially with new motor mounts (mine are so squashed that it's embarrassing)?

Woody

Well.... I was never worried about the 'plate' as NOBODY gets free advertising w/me. Nametags are initial items removed when & where possible.

[Beach-Burban]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Well.... I was never worried about the 'plate' as NOBODY gets free advertising w/me. Nametags are initial items removed when & where possible.

Ha...I hear ya on that! Unfortunately for Sanderson, you can't see them once installed, but they did a real good job welding them in place before the Silver Ceramic Coating process took place, so it's unlikely that anyone would ever take them off!

Woody

[Beach-Burban]

So here's a quick recap: First there were huge header issues then there weren't any header issues then there were slight header issues and now the headers are done! In the future, I'll probably get a nice ignition wire set with high heat 45 degree spark plug boots so I can get rid of the insulated boot covers I'm using at the moment, but at least now I can move on to the EFI preparations!

I had never made or even used AN hoses before, but since the Edelbrock Fuel Sump Pump kit included 6AN Russell Twist-Lok hose and fittings, I figured it was time to learn! The instructions were very understandable with pictures to help DIYers complete the task (including what to do if the hose doesn't fully mate to the fitting in one push...which came in handy on my first attempt!). After I had "mastered" the technique, I then moved on to figuring the layout I wanted the fuel filters to follow and ordered the extra components needed to finish the preparations.

In an effort to clean up appearances in the engine bay, I first decided to remove the original charcoal canister as the Edelbrock system uses a different system for venting. The large void left by removing the canister was the perfect place to tuck in the "Ford type" solenoid that the original owner installed to energize the starter motor (I've heard that this is a common practice to eliminate the hot GM solenoid issue?). This solenoid was right in the middle of the inner wheel well, so now it is out of the way and the cables are routed more cleanly too! Two of the three hoses for the canister were replaced not too long ago (5/16" vent and 5/32" vacuum) and ended up working perfectly as the sump pump's vent hose and vacuum compensation hose. I placed a TEE in the middle of the 5/16" hose so that I could also tie into the original mechanical fuel pumps return hardline as the mechanical Edelbrock fuel pump that will feed the sump pump only has an inlet and outlet...no return line required for this system. Now I don't have to cap that hardline and there are actually two exits for vapors to be routed back to the fuel tank! I also removed the small original "hot" junction block located on the inner fender and replaced it with larger junction blocks (red and black) to more easily accommodate the relays and such that are part of the EFI system.

After receiving my order consiting of fuel filters and Russell Twist-Lok fittings I mounted the filters in the chosen spot and after carefully measuring, I finished making the five required hoses. Not sure if I needed it or not, but I also bought a fuel shut off valve that easily attaches to the inlet of the 100 micron pre-filter. With everything "mocked-up", my plan is to remove everything, weld/grind/paint over the eight old holes in the wheel well...then reinstall everything hopefully for the last time! After that, it finally comes down to installation of the pre-assembled EFI intake, distributor, mechanical fuel pump then run the wiring...and of course, everything else required to complete the job!

The final picture is unrelated to the EFI...but I'm thrilled to finally have the (extra quart) ribbed aluminum transmission pan installed! It has been sitting in a box in my garage for nearly four years! Not only does this pan have a drain plug...but is has a 1/2" NPT hole with a factory style temperature sensor installed that works with the factory temperature gauge (I already installed a nice Stewart Warner temperature gauge to keep tabs on the coolant!). Plus...it looks good, too!

Woody